Quantcast A bull that can cross the boundaries between clubbie and cowboy cattle

Sponsors







Author Topic: A bull that can cross the boundaries between clubbie and cowboy cattle  (Read 26302 times)

Offline Davis Shorthorns

  • County Champion Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1872
  • Karma 47
    • View Profile
  Folks if you have not tried the angus shorthorn cross, you are really missing out. They are flat out tough to beat.

I agree that cross is one heck of a cross.  In my personaly openion the best cross since the Baldie  and if you are in a place that you have enough grass to support the milk production and a calf that can put some IMF into a carcass then I say go with the Shorthorn/ Angus.

And as far as I am concerned it is a better cross than the Sim Angus cross was a few years back and if the ASA and its members can get the numbers fixed we as a breed would be one BIG step closer to being a commercially acceptiable breed.  Add that to the trent towards retaining ownership through the feeding process and if you use a black angus bull on your shorthorn cows you still quallify for CAB and get the extra money for that. 

One thing to really watch as far a carcass quality the Meat Animal Research Center in Neb. Shorthorn is the no 3 breed as far as they have found, very close behind the red and black angus and a good way ahead of simmi.  Now remember that is with the VAST majority of breeders not selecting for carcass quality for over 30 years. 
I like Cows.  That is all.

Offline E6 Durhams

  • County Champion Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 2047
  • Karma 175
  • Brock Eagon 740-815-4145
    • View Profile
Just think when we start to identify bulls that are carcass improvers! Lets hope we don't go chasing that rainbow over the hill to far tho. Some shorthorns i know of have really lit up the ultrasound machine. Sue's Clementine heifer to Uluru comes to mind with her high IMF. My Durham Red bull from Leveldale with a 17 inch ribeye on a 5 frame. Shorthorns could be the missing link the commercial sector has been looking for to decrease those low yeilding carcasses. I know my customers love the shorthorn angus deal. My one buddy likes it so well he wants to invest in a meat shop that sells my beef. I need alot more cows first lol.
Cleveland Browns...... super bowl champs 2019. Heard it here first. And charcuterie is the next hot food trend with the hipsters.

Offline CAB

  • National Champion Poster
  • **********
  • Posts: 5509
  • Karma 102
    • View Profile
When it's all said and done, the packing plants dictate the "perfect" sized carcass. They will scrutinize as many areas as they can  to take as many docs as they can get by with including the color of the hide, but it still boils down to the fact they, the factory, is way more efficient killing larger carcasses than smaller ones. It takes the same amount of time to run both size carcasses through the line and @ the end of the day you'll have more product in the boxes killing the larger carcass cattle making the plant more money @ the end of the day and the meat seller's will spin the story to fit their most profitable scenario.

Offline Show Heifer

  • County Champion Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 2221
  • Karma 179
  • Sometimes its just worth the risk
    • View Profile
I called 8 local sale barns to find out the discount or premium on roan calves. The range was from a 15-45 cent discount. Even if the quality was similiar to that of a black calf.
I called 3 feed lots. None preferred roan cattle. One flat refused them, one said the daily rate would be more due to "feeding issues".
I also called 2 shortie breeders, and both said their market was to other shortie breeders or to juniors. A few sold solid red bulls to commercial cattleman, but one commented that he had sold a red bull last year that threw some roans the the buyer was not happy at all.

CAB - While I agree with your statement on carcass size, I also can relate to the family trying to buy beef for supper. If you have a 15 square inch ribeye, that is thick cut (1 1/4 inches), and ribeye is $.8.50 a pound, you are going to spend roughly $18-20 PER STEAK.  Yes, you can cut the steak into pieces, but lets face it, when someone wants a steak, they want their own steak. At the same time, a 8 square inch ribeye cut the same thickness will only be $8 per steak.  So while it is fun to brag about having a steer cut a 15-20 inch ribeye, it doesn't neccessarily translate into a good thing at the super market. 

JIT - While I like the looks of your bull, he would never be used in the commercial cattle herds around here simply due to his color. That is just the facts. He may offer the world to the industry, but unless he throws solid colored calves, he is worthless to the commecial cattleman around her. I hope he works out for you in Canada.
You had tthe right not display your lack of command of the english language. Too bad you have chosen not to. - Brit, senior student

Offline ELBEE

  • County Champion Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 635
  • Karma 60
  • Wymore TH/PHA Free
    • View Profile
    • elbeefarms
I called 8 local sale barns to find out the discount or premium on roan calves. The range was from a 15-45 cent discount. Even if the quality was similiar to that of a black calf.
I called 3 feed lots. None preferred roan cattle. One flat refused them, one said the daily rate would be more due to "feeding issues".
I also called 2 shortie breeders, and both said their market was to other shortie breeders or to juniors. A few sold solid red bulls to commercial cattleman, but one commented that he had sold a red bull last year that threw some roans the the buyer was not happy at all.

CAB - While I agree with your statement on carcass size, I also can relate to the family trying to buy beef for supper. If you have a 15 square inch ribeye, that is thick cut (1 1/4 inches), and ribeye is $.8.50 a pound, you are going to spend roughly $18-20 PER STEAK.  Yes, you can cut the steak into pieces, but lets face it, when someone wants a steak, they want their own steak. At the same time, a 8 square inch ribeye cut the same thickness will only be $8 per steak.  So while it is fun to brag about having a steer cut a 15-20 inch ribeye, it doesn't neccessarily translate into a good thing at the super market. 

JIT - While I like the looks of your bull, he would never be used in the commercial cattle herds around here simply due to his color. That is just the facts. He may offer the world to the industry, but unless he throws solid colored calves, he is worthless to the commecial cattleman around her. I hope he works out for you in Canada.


And that friends, is the world I live in, real or make-believe!

Shorthorns, the hobby breed!
"My father and grandfather were great men among men, but first and foremost, men of God. I ask that God give me the power of the Holy Spirit through His Son Jesus Christ to be like them."  Lee Bigham

Offline CAB

  • National Champion Poster
  • **********
  • Posts: 5509
  • Karma 102
    • View Profile
  SH, I understand your thoughts also, But like I said B4 the packing industry will do what is best for them. I did say that they would doc for as much as they can get by with including too large of carcasses. I didn't say anything about 15-20 s.in rib eyes. Personally I like cattle that ave 13/14 sq.inch eyes. When we put the meat truck up on the street each Saturday. We had the locker cut Rib eye steaks 1 1/2 inches thick then cut them in half.  We packaged those steaks one per package,( the half steak per package). Those half steak packages were always gone quickly and @ over $12.00per lb were less than $8.00 per serving. Women loved them. We also cut boneless sirloin @ 1 1/2 inches thick, the whole sirloin across. They usually were in the $30.00 to $35.00  range per package & could feed 4 to 6 PPL.  PPL grilled those whole and cut up servings accordingly. Try to have one cut like that sometime, you'll love the flavor and moisture left in that steak. One of my favorites.

  JIT, you make that bull available next year and I'll find a way to use him. I flat out like the type of SH cattle that you are putting together. I will be stopping in close to Jacksonville Iowa to look @ the lot #15 bull as soon as I can get a chance to.

Offline chambero

  • State Champion Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 3207
  • Karma 207
    • View Profile
I think different folks are arguing apples and oranges.  I thin JIT was arguing about size/weight of cattle. SH - I think you are talking color.  You're both right based on our experience.

We sell our cattle straight to feedlots - nothing through a sale barn except for our scrubs.  We have never ever had a buyer tell us an animal was too tall or too "big" in general.

We've never had roan colored cattle, but our buyers don't want anything but blacks or black baldies.  They don't argue with us on the handfull of solid red calves we'll wind up with.  They do sometimes try to kick back our few silver or yellow Charolais-X calves.  When I'll explain to them the bloodlines they are coming from (HooDoos or some of the other stuff we use, they'll reluctantly accept them with the rest of our truckloads.

Our buyers also know full well that a lot of our cattle have Maine blood in them or come from "clubby" sires.  They don't mind that one bit as, as I've posted the data on here before, those calves perform just fine in the feedlot. 

I can see where calves from club calf sires might not perform well commercially if your cowherd has been bred (really inbred) that way for a long time.  But I've got plenty of data to prove to myself that club calf sires on good solid cows do just fine in the commercial world.  Calves out of Heat Wave and his sons feed out just as good as commercial Angus or commercial Simi-Angus calves - as long as they are out of "normal" sized cows.

Go watch the Superior Auction on RFDTV today - you'll see what folks want.  Not trying to take shots - but its not Charolais cattle and its not Shorthorns - for different reasons.  I kind of scratch my head at Shorthorn breeders raising cane about the show ring.  That's the only real market in the US for those cattle.  As far as I know - they've never had a dominant or accepted role commercially.  People have them because they like looking at them.  The perception of them is most are just not tough animals that can make it in our range conditions.  I know there are lots of exceptions - but that's the perception from the few commercial breeders in our region that have tried them.

I really wonder about the logic of bias against Charolais.  Their problem is their calves are hard to get to grade and too many of them are still too coarse and too heavy boned.  But as a crossbred their calves grow well.  And if you run the numbers, NO OTHER CARCASS TRAIT TRUMPS WEIGHT - either for the cow calf producer or the feedlot seller.  A 1300 pound SELECT steer is going to bring more money than a 1250 pound Choice steer. 

AJ isn't wrong either about huge cows being bad.  Where people get in trouble (including us), is trying to make one kind of animal do it all.  You will wind up with cows that are too big using high growth bulls and keeping females out of them for multiple generations.  At the same time, you can't use all small to moderate frames bulls on small to moderate framed cows without leaving money on the table with the calf crop you sell.

Personally, our herd consists primarily of relatively large to moderate framed commercial Angus (R.A. Brown Angus bloodlines and some of the Sitz bloodlines) and low percentage Maine-Angus or Simi-Angus crosses with some Chi mixed in.  Right now, we AI for primarily for black show steers/heifers but we are buy maternal oriented bulls - a mix of Ohlde Angus bloodlines (Anchor), some halfblood Meyer sons, and some other halfblood Simi bulls to use back on these types of cows.  We keep some of our best show steer-oriented females, but we don't keep heifer calves from those females as replacements.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2010, 11:11:27 AM by chambero »

Offline ELBEE

  • County Champion Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 635
  • Karma 60
  • Wymore TH/PHA Free
    • View Profile
    • elbeefarms
One consolation on these extremely large loineyes is, that consumers buying freezer beef directly off the farm prefer a leaner and higher ratio of the more expensive cuts. ie; @ $2.40 per lb. for a whole or half why wouldn't you want 20 inch eyes?
"My father and grandfather were great men among men, but first and foremost, men of God. I ask that God give me the power of the Holy Spirit through His Son Jesus Christ to be like them."  Lee Bigham

Offline CAB

  • National Champion Poster
  • **********
  • Posts: 5509
  • Karma 102
    • View Profile
One consolation on these extremely large loineyes is, that consumers buying freezer beef directly off the farm prefer a leaner and higher ratio of the more expensive cuts. ie; @ $2.40 per lb. for a whole or half why wouldn't you want 20 inch eyes?

 Exactly Lee. If they can buy a whole or half beef, you can average the price out. The last freezer beef that I sold averaged $5.40 per take home, ground beef to fillets.

 I agree with you Chambero, I am breeding similar to what you are doing with an emphasis on breeding to make better cows. The thing that I am saying about JIT's SH cattle is that I think that they are good enough to incorporate into my cowherd in a way that I can take some great things into my cows, but still remain with a predominantly black calf crop.

Offline Freddy

  • State Champion Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2720
  • Karma 46
    • View Profile
    • www.fredranch.com
Your  articles are very interesting  an educational to me ,wondering how well is the half blood Charx bull going to work in this process, in my experience about half of those calves out of black cows re going to be black an the other half smoke or cream  ... An most of these cattle I have worked with will finish in that 1300 lb. weight an up ....Most of these smoke bulls are some of the show steer  breeding , an perform satisfactory  if you don't use the clubby cross female .....   Just wondering about your views on these .....

Offline chambero

  • State Champion Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 3207
  • Karma 207
    • View Profile
Your  articles are very interesting  an educational to me ,wondering how well is the half blood Charx bull going to work in this process, in my experience about half of those calves out of black cows re going to be black an the other half smoke or cream  ... An most of these cattle I have worked with will finish in that 1300 lb. weight an up ....Most of these smoke bulls are some of the show steer  breeding , an perform satisfactory  if you don't use the clubby cross female .....   Just wondering about your views on these .....

Freddy - I'll never get to expirament with this on any more than a handful of cows due to the overall goal of our program (black cows, black calves), but the black calf out of a halfblood Charolais cow (basically a 1/4 blood calf with some other exotic in him - Simi, Maine, Chi, etc) makes one heck of a performing calf - both gain and grading - on the limited few I've got data on.  Last year our highest money making commercial calf was bred like that.  Beat out 70 some odd other steers in that truckload - at weaning time and in $$ paid to the feedlot owner for the end carcass.  This particular momma cow is out of a Charolais bull called Troy and a black Magic grandaughter.  Really she is the best cow on our place.  Most of her calves aren't quite pretty enough for very top end show steers, but they are always super stout and heavy.  This year she had the George daughter (a 3/4 blood calf) you might remember seeing a picture of on here last fall.  I'll be keeping that calf for a replacement.  I'll get a photo of her up in a week or two.  She's making a real nice heifer, but not quite cool enough looking to show down here.

Offline aj

  • National Champion Poster
  • **********
  • Posts: 6233
  • Karma 175
    • View Profile
From what I've heard the Canadian commercial industry isn't even faintly like the the U.S. All I am saying is to heck with weaning weights. If you start figuring pounds weaned per acre of grass or pounds weaned per cow exposed you wake up in a hurry. With this way of measurement you figure in dead 120# calves and dead defect calves, cows that don't breed back because they are to big. WDA is a joke in the showring....its all artificial. Commercial guys don't talk about weaning weights they talked about how many pounds they weaned off the north pasture. They keep records on that pasture from year. The big cows won't get it done if you are truthfull and keep records on it.
People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

Offline chambero

  • State Champion Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 3207
  • Karma 207
    • View Profile
From what I've heard the Canadian commercial industry isn't even faintly like the the U.S. All I am saying is to heck with weaning weights. If you start figuring pounds weaned per acre of grass or pounds weaned per cow exposed you wake up in a hurry. With this way of measurement you figure in dead 120# calves and dead defect calves, cows that don't breed back because they are to big. WDA is a joke in the showring....its all artificial. Commercial guys don't talk about weaning weights they talked about how many pounds they weaned off the north pasture. They keep records on that pasture from year. The big cows won't get it done if you are truthfull and keep records on it.

AJ - I don't disagree with you in principal about probably making more money off moderate framed cows vs. big ones, but the only variable every commercial ranch I know of cares about IS weaning weights.  If you are talking commercial shorthorn breeders that is hardly a representative sample of the commercial world.  Large commercial operations in our world could care less about birthweights - just as long as the cow can have a calf unassisted out in the pasture.  Which is rarely a problem anymore.

In theory you can run more moderate framed cattle per acre than large framed cows, but nobody (in a significant sense) really determines their stocking rates that way.  Most operations that really make a living from cattle allow a pretty comfortable margin for grazing capacity based on weather - which is much more significant than the differences between what one cow eats vs. another.  Having smaller cows doesn't really allow you to run more cows in a pasture, at least not in our part of the world.

By the way, I've never seen a pasture full of 2,000 lb cows from any breed.  The real question is what is the extra cost associated with a 1500 lb cow vs a 1200 lb cow?  I think most people would agree a 1,000 lb mature cow is too small and a 1500 lb cow is on the upper end of what anyone really needs.

Offline r.n.reed

  • County Champion Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 609
  • Karma 37
    • View Profile
    • www.kapercattle.com
So if weaning weight is the main criteria for acceptance in the commercial market,seedstock providers should have big heavy milking cows and a creep feeder every 50 yards so they can advertise their exceptional weaning weights.
Gary Kaper

Offline aj

  • National Champion Poster
  • **********
  • Posts: 6233
  • Karma 175
    • View Profile
Chambero......points taken. One factor of the "large cow syndrome" is the shape of the growth curve. I think cattle like the Red Angus....grow like crazy then stop growing. I think some say shorties charolais and etc grow like crazy.....have their first calf......grow some more up to 3 or 4 years of age. Thats why I don't think you can nessecarrily bash moderate cattle for poor performance. If you are harvesteing cattle in the feedlot at 18 months or less who needs that growth curve after that age? There is no need for it unless salvage value of cows rise to say the 1.50$ range for some reason. One cool thing about some breeds of cattle and some lines of cattle is their early maturing growth patterns. I think it is cool to see these early maturing,masculine headed, little Red Angus bulls running in the pastures.
People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
3 Replies
1458 Views
Last post March 24, 2008, 05:42:50 PM
by RSC
10 Replies
2910 Views
Last post April 02, 2008, 09:42:30 AM
by RSC
0 Replies
968 Views
Last post June 03, 2009, 12:37:30 PM
by jbzdad
3 Replies
2175 Views
Last post February 03, 2010, 01:22:43 PM
by NSF
6 Replies
1798 Views
Last post April 24, 2018, 09:14:50 PM
by Shorthorn-Fed

Powered by EzPortal