A bull that can cross the boundaries between clubbie and cowboy cattle

[PLKR]

I often sell my Shorthorns on the rail and I have received CAB premnium before on some.....including a white Shorthorn steer!!

Well, that should tell you something about the CAB program.... (lol)

 

[Freddy]

I have heard this other places an glad some one documented it , it just proves that the cattle that meet packer specs ,it dont matter what color they are  CAB  uses them ...an all their idealogy doesn't mean much ....

 

[Mark H]

One of the biggest problems for cattle with odd color patterns like roan, brindle or tiger stripe is that a constant stream of cattle colored in such ways does not exist through out the year.  Sine most cattle buyers exist only to fill the order exactly as given plenty of good cattle particularly in singles or in small bunches get ignored.  I have seen some straight red Charolais  Shorthorn calves sell at the same for any other group of 30 steers.  Their roan herd mated with identical breeding brought  around 7.5 cents less a pound.  Deals like this are the best advertisement for retained ownership you can get.  The auction markets punish outliers whether justified or not.  The big problem for the steer planet crowd is that they do not have the numbers in most cases to get on board a retained ownership deal.  Larger herd size gives options that the small guy does not have.
If I was a continental cattle breeder i would contact the Laura's lean program and use the lean carcass to my advantage.  Right now Laura's Lean product is selling for ore money a pound in the Super markets than CAB.
I can relate to your comments about making money on odd and unusual pens.  When we were able to aggregate pens of singles, odd breeds, and late calves into marketable groups we made more money off them than the pots used for the cover of Cattlemen's magazine.  Auction markets do a poor job of identifying the productive capabilities of cattle and eventually the auction markets will do better at it or disappear.

 

[Will]

On the topic of black cattle.  In the mid 1990's I worked for IBP as a box beef sales man in the New York City Service center.  I got to work with most of the major steak cutters from Greensboro North Carolina to Maine.  I always enjoyed meeting them and talking about growing up on a Oklahoma farm.  One day I was visiting with probably the largest steak cutter in the Northeast (as many as ten loads a week everything high end).  I was telling him we ran commercial cows and had a few shorthorns.  He asked me which ones were commercial and which was shorthorn.  The way he understood it was their was two kinds of cows, nice fat tasty CAB and those wild crazy tough long horns from the old western movies.  The Angus has done a marvelous job of promotion.  They did it right way by convincing most of the buyers that their product was the only good product.  All they really provided was a more consistant product that had been group by quality.  On another note a differant buyer would not buy cattle from the Amarillo plant because some one had told him that the hot dry weather could make the carcasses tough.  It is all about what the buyers are willing to pay for.  I also saw some thing I found interesting at walmart over the week end, certified Angus hot dogs and they were fifty cents higher.

 

[aj]

In theory....you could set up a couple of sales at salebarns across each state and try and put some simi loads together but the logistics of this could be a nightmare. Then there is the shorthorn proof positive feedlot tests also. Any thing with spots,roans etc get beat to death on price around here also.

 

[sue]

I have always felt that there are bulls that can work in the clubbie world and the commercial industry, and I think this bull can do it. His name is HC FL Touchdown 123T ET x* and he is the reigning Canadian National Champion Shorthorn bull. He was born on my place and was sold to LA Land and Cattle Co., Leduc, AB at 2 months of age. When they saw him as a baby calf, they said they had never seen a bull calf with so much muscle expression through his lower quarter at this young an age... in any breed. I kept a semen interest in him, but recently teamed up with Shady Lane of SP, to purchase him in entirety. Some of you may have seen him in Denver. We had many excellent comments about him there.

Touchdown is pictured here after running with cows since March 27th. He has had no grain since returning from Denver. He is moderate framed, has tremendous thickness and is possibly the best rear quarter I have seen on a Shorthorn bull, especially through his lower quarter. I think he is a  bull that could work in any part of the industry. He moves like a cat and has perfectly formed feet and excellent legs. He also has a great hair coat.

Touchdown is an ET son of K-Kim Last Call 159N ET x* and Bar P Louisa 33F X ( who was bred by Hilltop on SP). His first calves are outstanding and already are showing his thickness and style. Better yet, the heaviest calf he sired this year had a  BW of 85 lbs. So far all his calves have been polled. I also have a flush mate sister to Touchdown, and she will definitely be heading to our donor program. She is moderate and thick and has a perfect udder.

Here are some pictures of Touchdown. The first was taken today ( May 16th) . The second is at Agribition where he was named G Champion bull. The third was at Agribition when he won the Junior bull calf class as a May baby.

JIT
I am going to disagree with the majority of the board and say that a roan low birth weight bull with good carcass can sell in the commerical market. Capiche is a great example of this already. You might not have a "capiche" but retained ownership is growing and growing - selling on the grid is in demand. I am glad you are feeling comfortable with a 5 frame bull- would not suggest promoting the purple backdrop photo but maybe the pasture pic instead . I am personally going to stick with solid red and may try a dark roan but we are so pleased to see the 1st quarter sales with Captain. Purebred Breeders do not drive the sales - the breed is just to small. The 1st goal for commerical breeders is a live calf. period. Good Luck

 

[aj]

I agree with Sue. I think a Shorthorn bull who was defect free and threw birth weights under 100#'s would be a goldmine.

 

[justintime]

I posted this picture on the "pasture pics" thread of Touchdown's heaviest calf so far. He was 85 lbs and from a Salute two year old.  Here he is again.  I am not bit bit afraid of using a roan bull here, and I find it strange that my roan bulls were the only ones that I had a pile of US interest in. That seems strange when I read about the terrible discounts roans get down there. Things like that really make me go ballistic, as it seems that in this day and age, an industry such as important as the beef industry, should be able to value a product on the quality it possesses rather than just the color of the hair on it's skin. If this was people they were doing this too, they would see jail time and/or heavy fines. Talk about discrimination of the nth degree.

 

[sue]

I agree with Sue. I think a Shorthorn bull who was defect free and threw birth weights under 100#'s would be a goldmine.

I am going to add to the live calf : Vigor,  mature size too many of the SH grow and grow and never reach maturity - slow to breed or too many days on feed. And the bulls are too big to serve - 4 year olds that weigh too much to cover heifers and 3 yr old cows.

 

[JoeBnTN]

I posted this picture on the "pasture pics" thread of Touchdown's heaviest calf so far. He was 85 lbs and from a Salute two year old.  Here he is again.  I am not bit bit afraid of using a roan bull here, and I find it strange that my roan bulls were the only ones that I had a pile of US interest in. That seems strange when I read about the terrible discounts roans get down there. Things like that really make me go ballistic, as it seems that in this day and age, an industry such as important as the beef industry, should be able to value a product on the quality it possesses rather than just the color of the hair on it's skin. If this was people they were doing this too, they would see jail time and/or heavy fines. Talk about discrimination of the nth degree.

Great looking calf!!!

I think I might be able to address the issue you raise regarding your experience with semen sales on roan bulls and I'm sure you've already thought of it - it's the show ring.  There is an incredible demand for a Shorthorn bull that's TH/PHA free, extra thick, deep, sound, with some eye appeal and unrelated to Trump or the other popular show ring sires -- add a little chrome for PIZAZZ and you've got a hot commodity in the US.  Touchdown sure looks like he could be a bull that many could use, but if he breeds true he'll be a really big hit with those breeding show cattle.

The cattle and situations that Sue, AJ and others reference are very typical of the commercial sector in most of the US.  Anything that doesn't match is generally odd lotted and sold at a discount.  As to the justification for this pricing, a buyer told me once, "there's no good reason for it - we just can!"  By lumping these cattle in their version of the "zoo pen" they simply find a way to improve profitability for the buyer -- at the expense of the seller.

With the overwhelming majority of US cow herds being less than 30 cows,and very few retaining ownership, it makes it hard for these producers to use bulls that don't provide them with a product they can sell at a consistent price.  The red bull with black cows producing solid black calves generally gives them the most profitable option.  I've had several larger commercial producers (which for this part of the country means 250-300 cows) tell me that if the Shorthorns could be used and make them all black or all blue roan, that cross would be as big as the black baldy was 30 years ago.  But when you get everything from a solid colored one to a stocking footed on to a white one from the same bull, it makes it hard to merchandise the calves. 

Until the smaller producer can find a way to sell his calves on their true outcome value color and consistency in general appearance are still going to be barriers for many good Shorthorn genetics.  For those, like Sue, Rob Snead, Barry Jordan, etc. who rely on commercial bull sales; solid red, polled bulls still offer the greatest potential for profit.

Just my $.02 for the day.

 

[justintime]

I posted this picture on the "pasture pics" thread of Touchdown's heaviest calf so far. He was 85 lbs and from a Salute two year old.  Here he is again.  I am not bit bit afraid of using a roan bull here, and I find it strange that my roan bulls were the only ones that I had a pile of US interest in. That seems strange when I read about the terrible discounts roans get down there. Things like that really make me go ballistic, as it seems that in this day and age, an industry such as important as the beef industry, should be able to value a product on the quality it possesses rather than just the color of the hair on it's skin. If this was people they were doing this too, they would see jail time and/or heavy fines. Talk about discrimination of the nth degree.

Great looking calf!!!

I think I might be able to address the issue you raise regarding your experience with semen sales on roan bulls and I'm sure you've already thought of it - it's the show ring.  There is an incredible demand for a Shorthorn bull that's TH/PHA free, extra thick, deep, sound, with some eye appeal and unrelated to Trump or the other popular show ring sires -- add a little chrome for PIZAZZ and you've got a hot commodity in the US.  Touchdown sure looks like he could be a bull that many could use, but if he breeds true he'll be a really big hit with those breeding show cattle.

The cattle and situations that Sue, AJ and others reference are very typical of the commercial sector in most of the US.  Anything that doesn't match is generally odd lotted and sold at a discount.   As to the justification for this pricing, a buyer told me once, "there's no good reason for it - we just can!"   By lumping these cattle in their version of the "zoo pen" they simply find a way to improve profitability for the buyer -- at the expense of the seller.

With the overwhelming majority of US cow herds being less than 30 cows,and very few retaining ownership, it makes it hard for these producers to use bulls that don't provide them with a product they can sell at a consistent price.  The red bull with black cows producing solid black calves generally gives them the most profitable option.  I've had several larger commercial producers (which for this part of the country means 250-300 cows) tell me that if the Shorthorns could be used and make them all black or all blue roan, that cross would be as big as the black baldy was 30 years ago.  But when you get everything from a solid colored one to a stocking footed on to a white one from the same bull, it makes it hard to merchandise the calves. 

Until the smaller producer can find a way to sell his calves on their true outcome value color and consistency in general appearance are still going to be barriers for many good Shorthorn genetics.  For those, like Sue, Rob Snead, Barry Jordan, etc. who rely on commercial bull sales; solid red, polled bulls still offer the greatest potential for profit.

Just my $.02 for the day.

Actually Joe, the interest we had from the US on our roan bulls was almost entirely from breeders that I have never heard of showing other than maybe an occasional animal at their county or state fair. If I were to list the breeders who contacted me on the roan bulls in our sale ( and I won't do that), I think most of you would be surprised at the list. They are not breeders you think of when you think of the US show ring crowd. That was the point that has made me wonder the most about what has been said about the discounts on roans. I did not have interest on a single red bull from the US but I have a list of 13 US breeders who contacted me prior to our sale and specifically asked about certain bulls in our sale. All were roans.  My bulls that passed, were all red and several were horned. As a side note, two more have sold in the last two days and I can hardly believe this but I got an email last night from a lady who is looking for 2 horned Shorthorn bulls. You can bet I answered that email as fast as my fat little fingers could type! So far 5 have sold and if we can get a deal on the 2 horned bulls done, I will be completely out of bulls again.

The roan thing is a regional thing here in Canada as well. For many years, I almost got my herd to a solid red herd, and then I started getting calls for white and roan bulls. When I found Saskvalley Pioneer 126P I decided that quality had to trump color, and we bought him. Now I would guess that we get double the inquiries for roans and whites than we do for red bulls. It is a fickle business.... and the customer is usually right!

 

[JoeBnTN]

It is a fickle business.... and the customer is usually right!

Now that's the bottom line!!

 

[justintime]

I thought I would give an update on this discussion about selling roan bulls. This morning I received a phone call from a man who asked me if I had any Shorthorn bulls left. I told him there were a few here but most of the ones left were horned bulls. He asked if I had any roans left, to which I said the roans were all sold and the ones remaining were solid reds with one having some white markings on his legs. I have never met this man before, nor have I heard of him, but he said he might come and have a look at the bulls even if there weren't any roans. He lives 3 hours away and by the time he got here, it was pouring rain. We had a coffee while we waited for the rain to stop long enough  to look at the bulls. He told me he runs 2200 yearlings on grass and also has a cow herd of 150 cows. He said he wanted roan bulls because the roan yearlings he grassed in the past few years have always sold for premium prices.

The rain finally let up and we went out to look at the bulls. Again he said he wished the bulls were roans, and I was thinking he might decide not to buy a bull. After he walked through them, he asked me if we had any roan bulls in the current calf crop? I said we did, but there were also a good bunch of red bulls as well. After taking a look at the bulls he turned to me and said, " I will take those 5 bulls over there. I reminded him that 3 of the bulls he picked were horned, and he said that he was not concerned about horns.

What I found interesting was that this guy made 100% of his income from his cattle, and he was wanting to use roan bulls.. NOT blacks, NOT reds, but Roans.I said to him that I was surprised when he did not ask for a discount for buying 5 bulls, to which he said, " why would I do that ? When I sell a couple hundred head to a feedlot, they don't ask for a discount." I really had to like this guy!

We are  down to 2 yearling bulls left to sell, and this now makes 36 bulls sold this spring for an average price of $2868. I fully expect we will sell out in the next two weeks. As for using a roan bull in my herd, I am now wishing my herd bulls were all roans!

 

[justintime]

Here are a couple more pics of Touchdown taken in the past few days. He has probably bred at least 30 head by now, and he is holding his condition excellently.

 

[Cowfarmer65]

Jit,

I was impressed with Touchdown as a show bull but, I'm more impressed with him in his workin' clothes. You and Rick should be proud of breeding that guy.