Interesting reading on Sullivan flyer !!!!!

Doc · Feb 6, 2012

• We need more performance in our Shorthorn Yard cattle to compete with Angus, Simmental, Charolais and Hereford.
• Check out www.angus.org - Champion Carload of 10 Angus Bulls - January bulls averaged 1,420 lbs.; frame 6.5 bulls. Reserve Champion
Carload of 10 Bulls - January 20th to February 13th averaged 1,310 lbs. Both Angus Carloads WDA higher than any Shorthorn Pen.
• Sullivan Farms February Grand Champion Pen of 5 Shorthorn bulls WDA was 3.66 - 1,192 lbs. average weight. Average weight for the
Angus Febraury Pen Bulls in a class of five entries was 1,315 lbs., 1,298 lbs., 1,270 lbs., 1,187 lbs., and 1,143 lbs.
• The Angus yard bulls averaged almost a full frame score over the Shorthorn yard bulls.
• Shorthorn breeders is it possible? Are we raising our bulls too small framed to sire profitable feeder cattle?
• The moderate English bred cow herds dominating our countryside would prosper with the injection of a stout 6+ framed Shorthorn bull,
in the feedlot, replacement pen or on the plate.
• The Continental cows in commercial herds would benefit from the maternal traits and marbling a Shorthorn bull would inject.
• Breeder focused on balanced multiple traits selection, with eye appeal always have a demand for their product. Balance never goes out of style.
• Frame 5 and 7 purebred cattle can be used as breeding tools but that is because generally you are not in the ideal situation.

townview · Feb 6, 2012

AJ u or anyone can disagree we a topic but there no place for name calling.

Doc · Feb 6, 2012

aj said:
***REMOVED BY MODERATOR****

AJ, how do you know these bd's & bw's are lied about? AND I sure hope you are saying the person that wrote the Sullivan flyer is a dumb *******. If you're calling me that , we have a problem.

To everyone else , I apologize for stirring up one of the trolls. I just read something that I thought was interesting and posted it .

j3cattleco · Feb 6, 2012

I don't run as many shorthorn cows as a lot of people on here but my problem is definitely not with my shorthorns getting big enough. They get plenty big and most of the time too big. My problem is feed conversion. I need cattle to convert more efficiently especially with input costs increasing. I think feed efficiency is a way bigger deal than size. Just my opinion.

Joshua

sue · Feb 6, 2012

j3cattleco said:
I don't run as many shorthorn cows as a lot of people on here but my problem is definitely not with my shorthorns getting big enough. They get plenty big and most of the time too big. My problem is feed conversion. I need cattle to convert more efficiently especially with input costs increasing. I think feed efficiency is a way bigger deal than size. Just my opinion.

Joshua

amen

thunderdownunder · Feb 6, 2012

Whether or not you agree with this, I think there are some very good points made here.

In particular:

Breeder focused on balanced multiple traits selection, with eye appeal always have a demand for their product. Balance never goes out of style.

steerjock07 · Feb 6, 2012

Joshua is 100% right on with his comment, the shorthorn breed has plenty of frame size with the majority of the bloodlines, so I don't see much problem there. The problem lies with maturation, as most bloodlines in the shorthorn breed have harder doing, later maturing traits. There is an exception with say the jakes proud jazz line and a few others, as these are typically easy feeding cattle that any producer would love to have their feedlots full with. So one can see comparing yearling weights with an early maturing Angus breed and a later maturing, harder doing shorthorn breed just doesn't seem fair. And just remember, in the end, the smaller framed cattle are gonna make it to market faster with less feed consumed, therefore maximizing profit and occupying facilities for less time. <rock>

knabe · Feb 6, 2012

home team is up.

kfacres · Feb 6, 2012

Does anyone think that pedigrees stacked with trump 3x in 4 generations have the BW to compete with ANY other breed out there? <deadhorse>

even if cattle people think they need some shorthorn=- they wont' buy bulls from that outfit, or that bloodline... commercial cattle people aren't dumb as a brick.. they don't believe everything they read.. and they weren't born yesterday... <deadhorse>

Seriously-- I don't see much good in breeding with 6 frame shorthorn bulls-- what's the average Angus cow size? low 5? <deadhorse>

and one last <deadhorse> I wonder why they promote overaged 6 frames... you'd think they'd want to promote a 7 frame... because we all know those aren't 5 frames... <deadhorse>

<chill> <band> <chill>

E Show Cattle · Feb 6, 2012

steerjock07 said:
Joshua is 100% right on with his comment, the shorthorn breed has plenty of frame size with the majority of the bloodlines, so I don't see much problem there. The problem lies with maturation, as most bloodlines in the shorthorn breed have harder doing, later maturing traits. There is an exception with say the jakes proud jazz line and a few others, as these are typically easy feeding cattle that any producer would love to have their feedlots full with. So one can see comparing yearling weights with an early maturing Angus breed and a later maturing, harder doing shorthorn breed just doesn't seem fair. And just remember, in the end, the smaller framed cattle are gonna make it to market faster with less feed consumed, therefore maximizing profit and occupying facilities for less time. <rock>

JPJ genetics grow much more efficiently than any angus line I have ever seen. We had a heifer average a daily gain of 3 pounds per day on 15 pounds of feed and a steer average 3.6 pounds per day. Along in the group of calves we had an angus heifer that was 150 pounds lighter than the shorthorn calves at 10 months of age.

kfacres · Feb 6, 2012

E Show Cattle said:
steerjock07 said:

Joshua is 100% right on with his comment, the shorthorn breed has plenty of frame size with the majority of the bloodlines, so I don't see much problem there. The problem lies with maturation, as most bloodlines in the shorthorn breed have harder doing, later maturing traits. There is an exception with say the jakes proud jazz line and a few others, as these are typically easy feeding cattle that any producer would love to have their feedlots full with. So one can see comparing yearling weights with an early maturing Angus breed and a later maturing, harder doing shorthorn breed just doesn't seem fair. And just remember, in the end, the smaller framed cattle are gonna make it to market faster with less feed consumed, therefore maximizing profit and occupying facilities for less time. <rock>

Click to expand...

maybe it was just really poor angus genetics/?

JPJ genetics grow much more efficiently than any angus line I have ever seen. We had a heifer average a daily gain of 3 pounds per day on 15 pounds of feed and a steer average 3.6 pounds per day. Along in the group of calves we had an angus heifer that was 150 pounds lighter than the shorthorn calves at 10 months of age.

OH Breeder · Feb 6, 2012

Cut the BS said:
E Show Cattle said:

steerjock07 said:

Joshua is 100% right on with his comment, the shorthorn breed has plenty of frame size with the majority of the bloodlines, so I don't see much problem there. The problem lies with maturation, as most bloodlines in the shorthorn breed have harder doing, later maturing traits. There is an exception with say the jakes proud jazz line and a few others, as these are typically easy feeding cattle that any producer would love to have their feedlots full with. So one can see comparing yearling weights with an early maturing Angus breed and a later maturing, harder doing shorthorn breed just doesn't seem fair. And just remember, in the end, the smaller framed cattle are gonna make it to market faster with less feed consumed, therefore maximizing profit and occupying facilities for less time. <rock>

Click to expand...

maybe it was just really poor angus genetics/?

JPJ genetics grow much more efficiently than any angus line I have ever seen. We had a heifer average a daily gain of 3 pounds per day on 15 pounds of feed and a steer average 3.6 pounds per day. Along in the group of calves we had an angus heifer that was 150 pounds lighter than the shorthorn calves at 10 months of age.

Click to expand...

Why can't it be rock solid performing jazz genetics. the breeding is there to make sound easy fleshing cattle whether you like him or not. ???

mark tenenbaum · Feb 6, 2012

Although this is a very simplistic answer I see 2 immediate answers- 1 : Every Shorthorn show bull is a full sib to the last show bull-and OF COURSE THEY are all under some BS syndication-whereby someone who bought cattle at a sale is an exclusive member of some elite lucky few-who get to use this bull-instead of last years full sib-making Shorthorns pretty much unattaianable to anyone not in the little club-and GIVEN THE REAL WORLD BWS on these cattle-its just as well-Regular breederswont touch em with a welders glove-AND NIETHER WOULD I-Course-Im not a member etc,so any quality or gains (percieved,invented or real) never reach everyday peons like me or the THOUSANDS of people who use other breeds.Yours is a breed-becoming less feasible by the minute-other than to show against very similar genetics-effectively being eliminated as anything but a novelty. 2:Back to the BWS-Shorthorns have become very moderate framed and showy-while BWS have grown at a staggering rate. I basically got fed up ,like alot of people IVE KNOWN for 20 plus years-and am concentrating on x breds and trying to reintroduce calving ease-ELIMINATING the value and political correctness (showability) of my cattle in an attempt to not be embarressed,and have to make excuses for cattle that just do not pay the bills. I admire the beutifull show cattle from Sullivans-and the sheer volume of what they have achieved-BUT SORRY DUDES,everyday people-the aforementioned huddled masses-aint gonna join your club-there are just too many documented cattle(with REAL STATISTICS,and hundreds to thousands of calves) where people can halfway sleep at night READILY AVAILABLE,and bending alot more curves -some of them clubby. O0

knabe · Feb 6, 2012

Anyone ever heard of supply and demand?

GONEWEST · Feb 6, 2012

I agree with Joshua about feed efficiency. However if they only gain a pound a day that's not much good either. What does it matter if they ate only two pounds of feed if they only gained one pound? Some of these cattle need some gas in them. Of course it all gets down to your individual situation. If you're sitting on tons of jet fuel you wouldn't want to feed it to a bunch of Piper Cubs. Conversely if all you have for gas is regular, a 747 isn't going to do you much good even if it would carry more passengers, you don't have the fuel to feed it. It's why I can't understand people arguing over what kind of cattle are "best." There are cattle for every situation imaginable. There is no one size fits all, or even most. And there is always more than one way to accomplish the same task.

To elaborate a little on what Knabe said, the only real way to measure meaningful performance AT ALL is your bank deposit slip. There is no other measure that more accurately reflects if what you are doing and the way you are doing it is working. All of you people continually bash the ideas and programs of those who's ultimate measure of performance quadruples all of you combined. Does that make the first inkling of sense to you? If your ideas and concepts were the recipe for success then it would seem to me that it would be you who was in the position to be taking those large deposit slips to the bank and not those who's programs or ideas you continually belittle. As it is you just come off as whiny and jealous.

JTM · Feb 7, 2012

I was going to post something about birthdates being changed and birthweights not accurate but apparently that was already covered.

Heres the problem I have been seeing. A lot of these show genetics will convert feed on grain, but that is all they will do. They need to be able to convert on no creep feed, wean at 650 lbs instead of 450. Too many people in the "show arena" are getting these cows in, feeding them grain, feeding the calves grain, and then after generations of doing this from cows that never sire their own calf, what do you have? One thing is for sure, you don't have a commercially acceptable program... Why would a commercial cattleman want to buy a bull from this type of breeding? Not singling out any particular program but this is wide spread across the nation for all show cattle.

If the genetics are such that they are easy fleshing and have superior growth on grass, how much better will they do when grain is poured to them?!?!

shortdawg · Feb 7, 2012

Interesting thought provoking ideas on the flyer as well as in the comments stemming from it. JPJ genetics are easy feeders and finish at lower weights than a lot of the genetics out there. Is this a bad thing ? Interesting that one of the Sullivan's top selling females last year was a Shorty Plus heifer out of an Angus cow. I personally think this cross is a ticket to gain commercial acceptance for the shorthorn breed and I've done a lot of it myself. Do shortys have the same quality of beef as the Angus ? IMO as good or better ! What the Angus breed has done that the Shorty breed hasn't is get the public to believe that their product is better than any other. Is CAB really 100% Angus ....no. If I take a Red shorty bull and breed him to a Angus cow and get a black calf is my beef going to be sold as CAB ? Yes ! I know I'm just rambling but I found John's comments interesting along with several others comments here ....... Just food for thought. I would like to see JPJ on the best Angus cow out there and the best Angus bull out there on the best Shorty cow and the resulting feeders fed out to see which produced the most amount of product for the lowest cost/lb of beef ..............

mark tenenbaum · Feb 7, 2012

shortdawg said:
Interesting thought provoking ideas on the flyer as well as in the comments stemming from it. JPJ genetics are easy feeders and finish at lower weights than a lot of the genetics out there. Is this a bad thing ? Interesting that one of the Sullivan's top selling females last year was a Shorty Plus heifer out of an Angus cow. I personally think this cross is a ticket to gain commercial acceptance for the shorthorn breed and I've done a lot of it myself. Do shortys have the same quality of beef as the Angus ? IMO as good or better ! What the Angus breed has done that the Shorty breed hasn't is get the public to believe that their product is better than any other. Is CAB really 100% Angus ....no. If I take a Red shorty bull and breed him to a Angus cow and get a black calf is my beef going to be sold as CAB ? Yes ! I know I'm just rambling but I found John's comments interesting along with several others comments here ....... Just food for thought. I would like to see JPJ on the best Angus cow out there and the best Angus bull out there on the best Shorty cow and the resulting feeders fed out to see which produced the most amount of product for the lowest cost/lb of beef .............. //// WELL PUT-probably some of the best carcass-growth etc bulls AVAILABLE-are some of the older ones closer to Rodeo-like Gater-Plus hes roan-and has many proven years as a CE bull.We are having decent is calves out of HC Touchdown-whose sire has some US Maine-and is out of a rodeo cow-the-DEERTRAIL Mona Lisa and maybe the larger bulls like JSF Adicted who goes back to Byland Dazzler-Mark1V-and maybe some Rodeo too. Other than: Vogels 2 bulls, Sues,Lauers,Lovings,RS and some of the obscure but great cattle in the far north and west-I hear someone yelling-THE CANADIANS ARE COMING-they are coming into thier own-after getting handed off Hunsley and Cagwins castoff junk like 57 Chevy for years.

Will · Feb 7, 2012

We have shorthorns but also run a commercial herd. I go to several bull sales every year. Most of the higher selling bulls that are going to a commercial herd to be used on cows will be bigger framed. Most people like a big stout attractive bull. Plus most of these guys sell by the pound and when you make your living that way it is easy to think bigger is better.

sue · Feb 7, 2012

Shorthorns are a maternal breed.. a docile breed that mother should flesh and grade easily. It's nice to know a hand few of breeders never lost sight of this . ... I have enjoyed this post . It's so obvious what is getting old and tired fast. Let's give Hereford a crack at the show ring !

Interesting reading on Sullivan flyer !!!!!

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