aj
Well-known member
In my humble opinion...don't blame beavers. The club calf industry is joke with all this defect horse ch1t. The club calve industry deserves what it gets. Isn't it such a trustworthy union of souls?
2 strains of TH
- Thread starter BAILEYFARMS
- Start date
Help Support Steer Planet:
OH Breeder
Well-known member
Jazzman and Outkast do share this line of breeding I am not sure if that is significant. But I noticed this line in both bulls. Of course on Jazzman's dam and on Outkast Dam.
ROCK HILL REDCOAT 30TH
ROCK HILL REDCOAT 30TH
OH Breeder
Well-known member
DL said:
I see that now. DUH? Well, the Holstein in Outcast pedigree is also very interesting.
BAILEYFARMS
Well-known member
Thats funny you say that about the clubbys what about the almighty Angus breed how many defectes do the have isn't it something like 3 or 4. Don't blame the clubby cows.aj said:
farmboy
Well-known member
aj said:
BAILEYFARMS said:
Give it 5-10 more years for discovery of more defects at an exponential rate and it will be impossible to find an animal that's clean for everything.
AJ - if the club calf industry bothers you so much what's your point of posting on here? We don't particularly care to deal with most traders, but we've been "stuck" by more commercial oriented folks over the years than the "trustworthy union of souls" you refer to.
The Angus industry is getting what it deserves also I guess. More than a few $100,000+ bulls that are worth the price of hamburger now. It was as intentional on their part as its was the steer breeders - which means not at all. I'm sure every breed will get their turn with these issues in the upcoming years.
aj
Well-known member
I like to stir up trouble I guess. The Angus cattle with defects are not allowed to be registered. What more can they do than that? The other breeds say it is ok to have defects. I guess |I like to debate and disscuss things. I just seems like the club calf deal is so dishonest. The goal of the business is to pull a fast one. You have heatseeker ai sires that look like Shorthorn. You have Herford looking cattle that are three quarter Maine Anjou. You have people blowing air or oil under the hide of cattle to win the big one. People use hair and glue and fake hair and fake color to pull a fast one. I'm not saying that that it's wrong its what it is. You have people lying about bwts and birth dates and papering cattle under false pretence. You have people lying about sires on pedigrees. You have people doctoring pictures to deceive people. You have best buddies working each other over on deals. Then you are going to jump on Beevers back cause you got screwed in a club calf deal? THATS INSANE. The people testing testing for this stuff are interested in science in truth and accuracy and you have club calf people whining abou those damn tests and the people that do them. Its crazy and lazy and goofy.
I've got no dealings with this bull or the people that own him. However, can't you understand that it's frustrating if you pay to have the tests done that the assocaition makes you have and then you still get stuck? Most people don't understand the concept of false negatives/false positives that can occur with any kind of test, but that doesn't seem to be the issue here.
In regards to "classification" of steers at shows - in reality this is much closer to the real word of commercial feedlot cattle classification than so called "purebred" cattle. Nothing dishonest about it. It's just the "if it looks like a duck its a duck" method.
The MOST DISHONEST part of showing cattle is people whining and making claims that someone cheats all the time using air or oil. Used to be done SOME, very very little anymore. Do you not realize how closely those that "win the big one" are gone over? You can't sneak something by them like that.
Doctoring pictures? Ever looked at any kind of magazine - hunting/fishing, women's magazines, etc? Welcome to the electronic world. Pictures are always "fixed" nowadays.
I'll guarantee you there's more cumulative "crap" on prices on purebred cattle sales (i.e. the big Angus production sales that involve cattle that will never be shown) than steer sales. By the way, that is the aspect of the overall cattle industry that irks me more than anything - but again, not unique to show cattle.
We're not part of the maintstraim, high dollar show cattle crowd in Texas. There are plenty of things about it that annoy me. But there's a whole lot more good assocaited with it than bad. We do our own thing, have fun with our kids doing it, and have plenty of success to satisfy ourselves. And sometimes make a little money - at least to pay the bills and fund next year.
In regards to "classification" of steers at shows - in reality this is much closer to the real word of commercial feedlot cattle classification than so called "purebred" cattle. Nothing dishonest about it. It's just the "if it looks like a duck its a duck" method.
The MOST DISHONEST part of showing cattle is people whining and making claims that someone cheats all the time using air or oil. Used to be done SOME, very very little anymore. Do you not realize how closely those that "win the big one" are gone over? You can't sneak something by them like that.
Doctoring pictures? Ever looked at any kind of magazine - hunting/fishing, women's magazines, etc? Welcome to the electronic world. Pictures are always "fixed" nowadays.
I'll guarantee you there's more cumulative "crap" on prices on purebred cattle sales (i.e. the big Angus production sales that involve cattle that will never be shown) than steer sales. By the way, that is the aspect of the overall cattle industry that irks me more than anything - but again, not unique to show cattle.
We're not part of the maintstraim, high dollar show cattle crowd in Texas. There are plenty of things about it that annoy me. But there's a whole lot more good assocaited with it than bad. We do our own thing, have fun with our kids doing it, and have plenty of success to satisfy ourselves. And sometimes make a little money - at least to pay the bills and fund next year.
Doc
Well-known member
Well put Chambero.
aj
Well-known member
I would not buy a bull that the owner didn't say...."I gaurenntee him defect free". THATS 5 words. The seller is a crook or he isn't. He will back his cattle or he won't. Don't give me it's the messengers fault horse ch1t. Don't Don't Don't. Either the seller of the bull will refund money or he won't. Things happen in this world. If it is man made a mistake out of a million will be made. I am not the crook. Beevers is not the crook. The seller of the bull will either stand behind his bull or he won't. If he is a trader or a club calf guy he won't. Its simple. Its not complicated. Its a matter of integrity. Club calf people do not have integrity on 10,000$ deals. Show me one club calf guy who does the right thing. One example! Don't color it over with crayons and tell me how smart you are. I don't care over the deal I am amused. Either the breeder stands behind his sale or. not. I know of a Shorthorn breeder who sold a bull over the phone. The breeder learned that the guy who bought the bull, son got killed in a car wreck that morning. We will just call this guy Art. Art never cashed the check for the bull. Delivered the bull. Thats the kind of people I do bussiness with. Not some club calf-trader joke of a human being. Its not my fault...It's not beevers fault. Its up to a decent code of ethics. Grow up buddy.
aj said:
I am a CLUB CALF BREEDER and I know many more and I take offense on what you are saying. Dont lump all breeders together. You dont like your association the ASA get out and start breeding Angus if they are so great, and trust worthy.
aj
Well-known member
Than I am assuming genetic defect cattle aren't a problem so what does it matter.
aj
Well-known member
OK norma...I take it back. Club calf people are really nice. I apologize.
Doc
Well-known member
aj, I don't know why you have such a hard on for "traders & club calf guys" but you sure do.
I sell body shop equipment for a living. There are some guys out there that sell equipment that are flat crooks, but usually they don't last long or they have a very limited customer base. I think the same thing goes with any body that sells anything, horses,calves,dogs,cars,etc. I would take it personal that if someone who got taken by one of these crooks was to say that all body shop equipment salemen were crooks.
In this particular case , maybe the buyers weren't worried about a guarantee because they were going to use him & promote him , carrier or not. Maybe they are already working on a deal to buy him back or give them sort of retribution. The sticky part may come where he was promoted THF/PHAF(unknown to the owners, he wasn't) & got bred to someone's high dollar cow that was THC & they lose the cow & calf.
I don't know. I don't know any of these people.I didn't use the bull & didn't plan on using him(not my type bull). So it doesn't really affect me either way, I just hate seeing those 2 groups of people all painted with same brush , because of a bad experience you must have had.
I sell body shop equipment for a living. There are some guys out there that sell equipment that are flat crooks, but usually they don't last long or they have a very limited customer base. I think the same thing goes with any body that sells anything, horses,calves,dogs,cars,etc. I would take it personal that if someone who got taken by one of these crooks was to say that all body shop equipment salemen were crooks.
In this particular case , maybe the buyers weren't worried about a guarantee because they were going to use him & promote him , carrier or not. Maybe they are already working on a deal to buy him back or give them sort of retribution. The sticky part may come where he was promoted THF/PHAF(unknown to the owners, he wasn't) & got bred to someone's high dollar cow that was THC & they lose the cow & calf.
I don't know. I don't know any of these people.I didn't use the bull & didn't plan on using him(not my type bull). So it doesn't really affect me either way, I just hate seeing those 2 groups of people all painted with same brush , because of a bad experience you must have had.
aj
Well-known member
I stand ashamed in the corner. I love club calf people. I love club calf people. I love calf people. I promise to no longer give a opinion of the club calf industry without first being screened by the pro propaganda divisionof the central planning committe of the peoples republic of steerplanet. I love the club calf people. I love club calf people. I promise not to judge the creative ethics of the industry. Barrock Hussein Obama hm. hm good.Barrock Husein Obama hm.hm. good. (The camera pans to the dirty German soldier) as the 7 disgruntled 101st airborne soldiers raise theirsemi automatic rifles and pump 15 rounds into my chest."I hope Ryan is worth all this".
AJ - I just don't understand why you bother with posting on the site if you like nothing about show cattle? You pretty much roll everyone and everything associated with it under the bus?
Would you care to enlighten the rest of us about how you and your operation are so different? There ain't nothing mainstream commercial about a shorthorn breeder.
You ain't been around many order buyers or average commercial ranchers if you think the problems you mention are remotely unique to club calf breeders.
Would you care to enlighten the rest of us about how you and your operation are so different? There ain't nothing mainstream commercial about a shorthorn breeder.
You ain't been around many order buyers or average commercial ranchers if you think the problems you mention are remotely unique to club calf breeders.
DLD
Well-known member
I really don't understand where you're coming from aj. Nobody said it was Dr. Beevers fault. Nobody said it was the breeders fault (except you). Maybe there was human error somewhere along the way, if so no one involved is implying that it was intentional. Maybe it's just some sort of anomaly in the test, or in the mutation of this particular bull. Maybe sometime we'll know what happened, maybe we never will.
You are implicitly implying that the breeder in this case is not going to refund the money - you don't know that, you don't even know if the other owners even want their money back. You're just assuming (an awful lot) - and you know what they say about assuming. You don't know the people involved here - I do, and you are very wrong to insist that you know all you need to know to pass judgement on this situation. This bull will pay for himself in calves and semen sold regardless of his carrier status, but he would do it much quicker and pay back much bigger if he were clean. Surely anyone can understand how dissappointing that would be, yet the owner is not on here being bitter at anyone about it, he just posted here trying to let everyone know the status of the bull. Seems to me if he were such a poor excuse for a human being as you say everyone in the club calf business is, he'd happily sell you semen on his bull so you could breed all your carrier cows to him and lose a fourth of your calf crop.
You are implicitly implying that the breeder in this case is not going to refund the money - you don't know that, you don't even know if the other owners even want their money back. You're just assuming (an awful lot) - and you know what they say about assuming. You don't know the people involved here - I do, and you are very wrong to insist that you know all you need to know to pass judgement on this situation. This bull will pay for himself in calves and semen sold regardless of his carrier status, but he would do it much quicker and pay back much bigger if he were clean. Surely anyone can understand how dissappointing that would be, yet the owner is not on here being bitter at anyone about it, he just posted here trying to let everyone know the status of the bull. Seems to me if he were such a poor excuse for a human being as you say everyone in the club calf business is, he'd happily sell you semen on his bull so you could breed all your carrier cows to him and lose a fourth of your calf crop.
