Breeding Heifers NEED SOME HELP

[red]

TJ & Dori- I don't think I've ever seen people that support & promote your breed like you both do. It is wonderful that you believe in the Lowlines like you. True ambassadors!!!

Red

 

[dori36]

TJ & Dori- I don't think I've ever seen people that support & promote your breed like you both do. It is wonderful that you believe in the Lowlines like you. True ambassadors!!!

Red

Thanks Red!  Sometime we can "go on and on" but I know we both see real value added opportunities with these cattle used on other breeds.  Thanks for being patient with our constant harangue about Lowlines!!  <party> <party>

 

[TJ]

TJ & Dori- I don't think I've ever seen people that support & promote your breed like you both do. It is wonderful that you believe in the Lowlines like you. True ambassadors!!!

Red

Thanks Red!  Sometime we can "go on and on" but I know we both see real value added opportunities with these cattle used on other breeds.  Thanks for being patient with our constant harangue about Lowlines!!   <party> <party>

Yes, thanks Red!  I totally agree with Dori.  I'll admit that I am the worlds worst about "going on & on".    But, I only go on & on, because I know that they will work.  Lowlines aren't the perfect breed & not everyone will want to use them, but they do have a whole lot to offer a bunch of people.  I've seen too many good 1/2 bloods for anyone to try to convince me that they CAN NOT excel in the show ring... I know that they can, especially when 48-49 inch steers are getting picked in some areas.  As long as depth, thickness & style are premiums in the showring, a Lowline cross will be able to compete.  With all that said, I also must thank everyone "for being patient with our constant harangue about Lowlines!!"  When you truly believe in something, it's too hard to keep quiet! 

BTW, Dori, "harangue" isn't a word that you hear everyday, but it was the perfect fit.  (clapping)   

 

[farwest]

TJ & Dori- I don't think I've ever seen people that support & promote your breed like you both do. It is wonderful that you believe in the Lowlines like you. True ambassadors!!!

Red

Thanks Red!  Sometime we can "go on and on" but I know we both see real value added opportunities with these cattle used on other breeds.  Thanks for being patient with our constant harangue about Lowlines!!   <party> <party>

Yes, thanks Red!  I totally agree with Dori.  I'll admit that I am the worlds worst about "going on & on".      But, I only go on & on, because I know that they will work.  Lowlines aren't the perfect breed & not everyone will want to use them, but they do have a whole lot to offer a bunch of people.  I've seen too many good 1/2 bloods for anyone to try to convince me that they CAN NOT excel in the show ring... I know that they can, especially when 48-49 inch steers are getting picked in some areas.  As long as depth, thickness & style are premiums in the showring, a Lowline cross will be able to compete.   With all that said, I also must thank everyone "for being patient with our constant harangue about Lowlines!!"   When you truly believe in something, it's too hard to keep quiet! 

BTW, Dori, "harangue" isn't a word that you hear everyday, but it was the perfect fit.  (clapping)     

No offense to anyone, but alot said right there.  It is interesting on this board how there are knowers, people that always know and never inquire, and wonderers, people that inquire alot and never offer much opinion, but my guess is the inquirers know quite a bit, just wanting to expand their knowledge.  That said, back to the heifers, calving them in the fall, they are going to be over 24 months of age, calving in the warm climate, warm time of year, spells smaller birth weights.  MINE, without a question gigalo joe, smokiing joe, ali clone.  I live in the middle of cow country, nothing but.  I see evryone using a 70 lb. birth weight calving bull.  I know their are exceptions, but birthweight does have a direct correlation to weaning weight.

 

[TJ]

No offense to anyone, but alot said right there.   It is interesting on this board how there are knowers, people that always know and never inquire, and wonderers, people that inquire alot and never offer much opinion, but my guess is the inquirers know quite a bit, just wanting to expand their knowledge.  That said, back to the heifers, calving them in the fall, they are going to be over 24 months of age, calving in the warm climate, warm time of year, spells smaller birth weights.  MINE, without a question gigalo joe, smokiing joe, ali clone.  I live in the middle of cow country, nothing but.   I see evryone using a 70 lb. birth weight calving bull.  I know their are exceptions, but birthweight does have a direct correlation to weaning weight.

I'm probably the worlds worst about inquiring, asking questions & researching something before I make a jump at anything.  If you are saying that I don't ever inquire, ask Justin Olson how much I've bugged him with Shorthorn related questions.      

I've been around Chi's (good friend won National Champ Chi Show back in the day), Limmi's, club calves, Tarentaise, etc, & it's not like I don't know what it takes to win a show.  I've won banners at the NAILE, NWSS, American Royal, KY State Fair, etc. & we've sold some steers that did some winning back in the day.  I'm not a "show calf guru", but I've always done  OK & I'm not exactly a novice.   

And no offense to you either.  Just so that you know, I laughed at the Lowline display in Denver back in 1996 or 1997.  I was completely close minded, but partially because they were marketed incorrectly, IMHO.   However, in 1999/2000, I ran across some literature that got me to begin to research the Lowline breed.   I watched the 1st Lowline Show in Denver in 2001 & did lots of other research for several more years.  However, it wasn't until 2004 when I bought my 1st one & I wasn't 100% convinced at the point.  However, I'm completely sold now! 

You breed your fullsized heifers to calve after 24 months.  I'll use one of mine as an example... in the very 1st group of heifers that I bred to a Lowline bull, I bred 1 to calve at 20 months & the whole group to calve at under 24 months, on purpose, to test my theory... well the late July heifer calved unassisted in late March & she calved in mid February the following year... her 1st 2 Lowline sired calves weaned off at a combined 1,200+ lbs. (actual weight not adjusted & no creep feed) & the bull wasn't nearly the bull that Doc Holliday is.   If that's not impressive results, then I don't know what is. 

Since "weight" appears to be the concern, I could tell you my experiences all day long, but I think a much better approach would be to post University research on 1/2 blood Lowline steers (Lowline sired & commerical heifer dams)... which brings me to the question, since when are 1,297 lb. finished steers too small?  When is a 51 inch steer way too short?  Looks like the whole group average is over 1,200 lbs. & over 51 inches tall.  Just how heavy are show steers supposed to be?  I'm inquiring, because I always thought that 12-1300'ish was ideal.   

 

[savaged]

OK T.J., you've got my interest.

I have been considering many different options for breeding this Dr. Who heifer (not the greatest rear leg set for the picture - she is now 1 year of age and 1,000 lbs), and I certainly do not want her to have a difficult first calf, but I would love to give her a shot at throwing a good one for me right out of the chute.  I plan to breed her this May or June when she will be 15 - 16 months of age.  Bulls I am considering include Gigolo Joe, Jakes Proud Jazz, Ali,  Duff's New Edition, Major's Money Man, etc.

What I notice in the 1/2 blood Lowline pictures here is that they seem to have minimal neck extension, which I view as a very important phenotype in show cattle, and especially heifers.  Is this a common trait?  And, is my heifer too "clubby" or thick to go with Lowline?

 

[TJ]

OK T.J., you've got my interest.

I have been considering many different options for breeding this Dr. Who heifer (not the greatest rear leg set for the picture - she is now 1 year of age and 1,000 lbs), and I certainly do not want her to have a difficult first calf, but I would love to give her a shot at throwing a good one for me right out of the chute.   I plan to breed her this May or June when she will be 15 - 16 months of age.  Bulls I am considering include Gigolo Joe, Jakes Proud Jazz, Ali,  Duff's New Edition, Major's Money Man, etc.

What I notice in the 1/2 blood Lowline pictures here is that they seem to have minimal neck extension, which I view as a very important phenotype in show cattle, and especially heifers.   Is this a common trait?  And, is my heifer too "clubby" or thick to go with Lowline?

If you need a really goose necked sire, a Lowline will probably disappoint you.  They will sire clean fronts, but not the real freaky, goosey fronts.  Lowlines aren't going to add a lot of neck extension, but they will work on heifers with adequate extension. 

That Lowline X Sin City heifer is not goose necked, but she has more extension than it looks in her pic because her head is turned.  Also, I want to point out that her sire is shorter necked than Doc Holliday.  I'm probably biased, but her NAILE show pics didn't look all that much different than some of the Shorthorn Plus pics that I saw at the NAILE.  And ask Justin about her calf pics (if he remembers them)... she was plenty long necked as a weanling before she got some condition & age on her.  That 1/2 Lowline X 1/2 Angus cow that I posted has plenty of neck extension, IMHO!  Trust me, she's not lacking at all in that department.      The Lowline X Shorthorn that won at the NAILE was a lot like her & had a lot of neck extension too & honestly, that's the only reason why she beat my heifer.  According to the judge, she was just a little more feminine & a little more extended... my heifer was a little too "steery", but again, my LL X Sin City heifer isn't out of Doc Holliday or Fitz (Fitz has more extension than her sire too). 

The heifer below is a fullblood Doc Holliday daughter & while she's not super extended, she's not too bad for a 100% Lowline Angus.  That's about the amount Doc Holliday will sire... more or less will depend on the female.  

The 1/2 blood Lowline heifer that Bloomberg's (IL) raised, that was also at the NAILE, had plenty of neck extension.  She was a Lowline X Heetseeker X Simmi. 

JPJ is on your list... somebody like Justin may have to correct me, but from what I've seen, JPJ will sire clean fronts too, but I would question whether he would sire any more or much more neck extension than Doc Holliday... I'm thinking that he's often used on some pretty framey & some pretty extended necked females.   

I wish I could see a different pic of your heifer.  But, from what I see, I don't think that your heifer is too clubby to use a Lowline on.  However, I like a little more powerful, soggier made type cattle than some.  But, I don't think that Doc Holliday or probably any other Lowline bull would add any more extension to her.  I don't know if her rear legs are a concern (you mentioned that & I can't really tell from the pic angle), but Doc will sire nice legged cattle.  Not too much set, yet very sound.  If anything his #1 best trait might be his legs.  And Doc will sire hair.  Maybe not TH carrier hair, but when I bought him he had 5-6 inches, he was running outdoors & they had water in the swimming pool at the hotel where I stayed.  So I don't think that the resulting calf would have any less hair than your heifer.     

A Maine bull like Ali would probably give you more extension... that's just a fact.  And I am not saying that he wouldn't work on heifers a lot of time, it's just that you can hear a few 120+ lb. calf stories about Ali, but you wont hear even an 85 lb. calf story with Doc Holliday... I haven't even heard the first 70 lb. calf story.  3 out of 20 assists might be OK for some, but it is 3 too many for me!  So, if you want more extension & you can baby sit your heifer, you might want to try something besides a Lowline, but if you can't baby sit your heifer & you'd be OK with a little less frame & a clean front, I'd think about a Lowline.  But, that's just my opinion & others may disagree.  That's OK... it would be boring if we all agreed all the time.

Also, extension isn't everything & it doesn't always = a victory.  Extension can also = harder doing cattle.  But, if extension is important to you, you should select for it and I'm sure that plenty of bulls have more extension than a Lowline. 

Just my 2 cents. 

 

[TJ]

Speaking of neck extension, here is the Res. Grand Champion Shorthorn Plus at Louisville.  I wish that I had ordered a show picture of my Lowline X Shorthorn to show you, so that you could carefully compare the 2 side by side, like I did.   Just being as honest as I can be, she doesn't have a bit more neck extension than my Lowline X Shorthorn heifer.  Actually, their front end's look virtually identical.  And this is a Res. Champ Shorthorn Plus at one of the biggest shows in the US.  She's taller than my heifer & has more roaning, but otherwise, just not a whole lot of difference, IMHO.  And I am just being as honest as I can be.  Maybe I can get a pic from Linde's & post them side by side.     

 

[CAB]

Savaged MO, wait a little bit longer til we know for sure that Gig Joe will be safe on heifers and if he is, I think that he gives you by far the best chance for what you are looking for. There are plenty of PPL on this board that have heifers stuck to Joe to give us the answer in the next 2 months. He will sire the most look and I think have enough performance also. There will also be a lot of Dirty Hairy calves born out of heifers. I've seen some good ones out of him and I have seen a couple that didn't probably grow like a person may like, but being out of 1st calf heifers, I can't condem him on the couple that I saw. Good Luck. Brent

 

[farwest]

Speaking of neck extension, here is the Res. Grand Champion Shorthorn Plus at Louisville.  I wish that I had ordered a show picture of my Lowline X Shorthorn to show you, so that you could carefully compare the 2 side by side, like I did.   Just being as honest as I can be, she doesn't have a bit more neck extension than my Lowline X Shorthorn heifer.  Actually, their front end's look virtually identical.  And this is a Res. Champ Shorthorn Plus at one of the biggest shows in the US.  She's taller than my heifer & has more roaning, but otherwise, just not a whole lot of difference, IMHO.  And I am just being as honest as I can be.  Maybe I can get a pic from Linde's & post them side by side.     

I don't  mean to get in the middle of your horn blowing TJ, but i would say show ring comparison bone and length of spine will enter in.  Now I know we don't eat that bone, but say what yo want, it still has influence in the show ring.  BTW, did you notice the post about feedlot below, aren't lowlines good grassfed cattle.

 

[Jill]

If you are looking for a live sale barn calf, Jersey or Lowline either one will get a calf on the ground that you will be able to sell.  Now with that out of the way, I would not waste a year of production just trying to get a live calf.  There are many options for a live calf that will also give you the chance of having a calf you could show or sell for more than market, and yes, we have had many winners out of 1st calf heifers.  I don't know how it works in Texas, but I can guarantee you in Kansas a 48-49 heifer will stand at the bottom of the class, and steers don't fare much better, that is just too small.  I would go with Money Man, Gigolo Joe, Bouncer any of those will also give you a calf that can be registered Maine.  IF you have a place you can show in a Lowline class, then that would be an option, we just don't.

For Savaged, we bred our Dr. Who to Gigolo Joe, don't think there is a better choice if you're looking for Maine genetics to compliment Dr. Who.

 

[TJ]

]I don't  mean to get in the middle of your horn blowing TJ, but i would say show ring comparison bone and length of spine will enter in.  Now I know we don't eat that bone, but say what yo want, it still has influence in the show ring.  BTW, did you notice the post about feedlot below, aren't lowlines good grassfed cattle.

I'm not going to argue with you, so as soon as I get a show pic from Linde's (the NAILE pics got taken down before I knew what I was going to order), I'll post it & you can be the judge for yourself.  You can either agree or disagree, but I have had others look & they agreed.  All I will say is... 

RE bone... the judge talked repeatedly about the amount of bone that my Lowline X Sin City heifer had & after looking at her show pics, trust me, lack of bone will not come into play... she's got plenty. 

RE length of spine... my Lowline X Sin City is not short sided... she's so deep that she gives the illusion of being shorter than she is.  She's not goose necked, but she's not short necked either. 

Since we are on the subject of length & extension... I hesitate to post a "not so great pic" of my heifer, because of all the negative "Lowline nellies" on this board just waiting to pounce everytime I post anything RE using a Lowline on heifers.  However, here is a not so great, weanling pic of the same heifer.  It's in the middle of summer, she doesn't have much hair, she hadn't been on soy hulls (yes soy hulls & only a few lbs.) for very long, but you can get a better idea of her length & her extension.  She may not be super in either department, but I personally don't like them any longer or any more extended. 

RE feedlot... Yes, Lowlines excel as grass finished cattle.  But, the 1/2 bloods will work well either way.  Success stories in the feedlot & on pasture.  The NDSU Research is what it is.               

 

[farwest]

The more you talk the more you are convincing me TJ, I would guess that Doc Holiday would be a good match on some commercial angus to make them easier keeping, low maintenance in these Sandhills, i am all for that.

 

[simtal]

Do you realize how biased and misleading that study by NDSU is?

 

[TJ]

Do you realize how biased and misleading that study by NDSU is?

That's a pretty bold claim that you are making.  Again, it is what it is.  They bred the commercial heifers, they delivered the calves, they weaned the calves, they sent them to the feedlot, they gathered the carcass data. I wasn't holding their hand or looking over their shoulder the whole time, so I can't say for sure, but you can't either.  I can tell you for a fact that I've seen grass finished 1/2 blood Lowline steers that topped 1,100 lbs. at 20-22 months. 

I'm noticing a pretty interesting pattern...  I post my opinion, I get slammed.  I post University research, I get slammed.  I am getting ready to post the show results of a heifer in AOB division in Arkansas & I'm sure I'll get slammed for that too.  I guess the next thing that I am going to hear is that the Arkansas judges were biased & were trying to mislead you guys too.   

 

[kfacres]

i'm not slamming you, I just have questions conserning the future...  Good breeders always look into the future, and that's where the men get seperated from the boys..

Yes, but I have a question for you.. what are you going to breed these half blood lowline heifers back to, not just the first time, but as cows too??   are you going to have to go back lowline, and make 3/4 bloods. or can you go with something else?  

This isn't just a question for your breed, but for any breeder wishing to use calving ease bulls, and keep heifers out of em.. Eventually it will catch up to you.. Smaller calves at birth tend to be smaller calves at weaning, and smaller yearling weights.  Eventually turning your whole herd into small cows that have to be bred calving ease everytime.  Sure it has to do with width from hooks to pins, but that corelates as well

you may correct me if I am wrong... But several cattleman will back me up on this!!  All breeds. crossbreeds combined

 

[CAB]

  I think that many PPL have that same question KFacres. The solution to that one is easy, if we're talking about calving ease bulls for heifers, breed lowlines & just don't keep the females if you are scared of them leading to problems down the road somewhere.
  TJ & Dori, I don't think PPL are trying to purposely argue, but everyone has their opinion and will ask/argue their points. I don't think that it is personal. Keep on keeping on if it's what you believe. That's what makes this board tick. Brent

 

[TJ]

If you are looking for a live sale barn calf, Jersey or Lowline either one will get a calf on the ground that you will be able to sell.  Now with that out of the way, I would not waste a year of production just trying to get a live calf.  There are many options for a live calf that will also give you the chance of having a calf you could show or sell for more than market, and yes, we have had many winners out of 1st calf heifers.  I don't know how it works in Texas, but I can guarantee you in Kansas a 48-49 heifer will stand at the bottom of the class, and steers don't fare much better, that is just too small.  I would go with Money Man, Gigolo Joe, Bouncer any of those will also give you a calf that can be registered Maine.  IF you have a place you can show in a Lowline class, then that would be an option, we just don't.

For Savaged, we bred our Dr. Who to Gigolo Joe, don't think there is a better choice if you're looking for Maine genetics to compliment Dr. Who.

Is a 51-52 inch - 1297 lb. steer too small in Kansas?  The NDSU Research shows a 4.4 - 4.8 frame score avg.  At 18 months that is right at 51-52 inches tall.  Also, the entire 3 year test avg. is over 1,200 lbs. & one year it was 1,297 lbs. & that is the average, which means some were over 1,300.  That just shows that they can finish heavy enough & all the steers were out of commercial heifers that were sired & calved out in the NDSU-Dickinson test.  

In Kansas you have Lowline shows in 3 surrounding states... Kansas City, Denver & a JR Show in North Platte.   You can also show them in the AOB division anywhere.  I assume that Kansas has AOB division & I assume that Texas does as well.  And Texas has the Houston Lowline Show.  

You can guarantee that a 48-49 inch heifer will stand at the bottom of a class.  Yet, the Angus breed is trending smaller.  In 2 years, who knows what is going to happen.  I sure don't and neither of us can "guarantee" what a judge will be picking in 2 years.  The show ring changes over time & that is a fact.   Corn prices & drought could both influence change.  So can the economy.    

I don't know about Kansas, but in Arkansas Jacob Hudlow was "undefeated" in the AOB division this past spring.  I incorrectly had him losing 2 shows... but I just reread the article & it says "undefeated" in the AOB division.  He won at least 11 championships that I know of with his heifer, including an Arkansas Spring State Fair.  And she was a 3/4 blood Lowline... which is even smaller than a 1/2 blood.  Respectfully, I submit that Jacob Hudlows show record is the only certainty & everything else (including my own opinion) is nothing more than speculation.  The bottom line is that a 3/4 blood Lowline heifer has been doing a whole lot of winning & she was winning in non-Lowline divisions, so it can't be said that a Lowline X has no chance of winning, no matter how badly somebody wants to type it.      

Is Gigolo Joe going to produce 50 unassisted births out of 50 heifers?  He very well might & he very well might not.  Might his calves beat a Lowline X in the show ring?  That might happen too.  But, to say that a Lowline X will absolutely not work in the show ring, just doesn't have any merit, IMHO.  I think otherwise & Jacob Hudlow knows otherwise.    

 

[farwest]

Do you realize how biased and misleading that study by NDSU is?

That's a pretty bold claim that you are making.   Again, it is what it is.  They bred the commercial heifers, they delivered the calves, they weaned the calves, they sent them to the feedlot, they gathered the carcass data. I wasn't holding their hand or looking over their shoulder the whole time, so I can't say for sure, but you can't either.  I can tell you for a fact that I've seen grass finished 1/2 blood Lowline steers that topped 1,100 lbs. at 20-22 months. 

I'm noticing a pretty interesting pattern...  I post my opinion, I get slammed.  I post University research, I get slammed.  I am getting ready to post the show results of a heifer in AOB division in Arkansas & I'm sure I'll get slammed for that too.  I guess the next thing that I am going to hear is that the Arkansas judges were biased & were trying to mislead you guys too.      

IDK, could it be overhornblowing, or over promotion.  Just a guess.  Any way I still wonder whether a half lowline cow would have a place in the sandhills, would be an easy keeper.  Someone did bring up an interesting point though.  What are ya gonna breed em to as half blood first calvers.  You should be keeping genetics out of these, after all they are your freshest and latest, they should be your best.  IDK, maybe catch a jackrabbit running by, ram him with an electric prod and go with that.

 

[LazyGLowlines]

Do you realize how biased and misleading that study by NDSU is?

Actually, the NDSU has worked very hard to get a fair and unbiased study done.  They've started using lowline influenced mama cows to make their program more efficient.  Yes, they still have some 1800 lb + cows, but those mamas can't come close to weaning off a calf at 1/2 their body weight.