TMJ Show Cattle said:
First off let me say this thread and most all of the threads on these lowline cattle,are interesting to say the least.In fact some of you lowline breeders at least have some interesting "facts' to back up your arguments. I've been in this "clubby" business for quite sometime,and it never fails to amaze me how passionate people can be. I would like to ask a couple questions. First, the question was raised about halfblood[example lowline/shorthorn or lowline /lowlines/Gigolo Joe]females being bred up instead down.In other words has anyone bred a lowline to a purebred shortie,got a heifer,then bred her back the 2nd time to a purebred shortie?What was the result? Do the resulting mating bring a little more "size" back into the equation? In other words will 3/4 shorties 1/4 lowlines be feasible. This question has been asked before,but do to the rather heated discussions that come about,the question never seems to get answered satisfactory.Correct me if I'm wrong,but the Highlander craze seems to be taking shape as far as crossbreeding for club calves. What are their advantages over a lowline,except maybe "hair"? Now that the main question I had has been asked,let's talk about these 48 or 49 inch finished steers that have won shows. I come from Oklahoma where they have used 51 to 52 inch steers for champion for many years. I think primarily college judging coaches and some of their students.Most of the steers have weighed from 1275 to 1295 lbs. One judge several years ago was informed he would never be asked back to judge OKC because he used a steer that was 501/2 inches tall that weighed 1190lbs.Although the steer was finished,it didn't go over to hot.The only other calf that I have heard of was about 5 or 6 years ago I was told the champion steer in Houston was 49 inches tall. I know that ordeal caused one hell of a stir amongst cattlemen in Texas and Oklahoma.Nowadays, steers in OKC are anywhere from 511/2 to 53 inches and weigh 1295 to 1350 with some of the heavier ones being drawn back some.Now all this being said,I tend to like steers around 52 inches that weigh 1300 to 1325. In fact none of our club calf cows weigh over 1400lbs.I think the whole idea of the lowline and purebred discussion should be to reach a happy medium.If it means the lowlines can be used consistantly to help downsize some of the larger framed cattle for "clubby" purposes then so be it. As long as I can breed "up" to have 1/4 blood lowlines it would work for me. After all, I have met the Bloomberg's and they do a fine job with their cattle. I have known Jerry Adamson for over 30 years,if it works for him,it just might work for us. He has been pretty successful with new trends over the years. I now live in Wisconsin and there are a few lowlines around at county shows.Most of the natives in this neck of the woods LOVE their big ole Simmy's which is ok by me also.Now one other point I would like to make is this: Although there have been drastic improvements made in Arkansas and some other southern state's when it comes to having exceptional "show" cattle,the competition there compared to many other states is still not near as strong to make comparabl;e judgements about how good a AOB heifer may or may not be. I say this as I used to judge many shows back in the 70's and 80's in that area,have attended shows even as recent as 2006.There are exceptions to every rule,however if the lowline folks ever win SUPREME Champion female at one of the so called MAJORS,or a prominent State Fair then it's Katy bar the door,the arguments would be over.
TMJ Show Cattle... very interesting post.
RE 1/4 blood Lowlines... Yes, you can breed up to 1/4 bloods. Jerry Adamson/George Jenkins have 1/2 & 1/4 blood Lowline cows... probably it would be better to ask them about those 1/4 bloods because I've never seen those 1/4 bloods & I rather speak only about things that I know about. I've been told that the Lowline Registry has voted to register down to 1/4 blood, so I think that more people raising 1/4 blood Lowlines for the clubby market will become more common. I know that George Jenkins had some 1,300 lb. 1/2 blood cows that Jerry had bred to Dr Who & Hotmail. I think that 1/4 bloods would be a lot more accepted by most than 1/2 bloods for obvious reasons (a little bigger frame size). Also, now instead of showing only 1/2 blood Lowline AOB's, we will be able to show 1/4 & 3/8 blood Lowline AOB's too. We
will not be showing 1/4's & 3/8 in our breed shows at the majors, but it will help the 4H, FFA & JR Exhibitors at county fairs, Beef Expos, Jackpot Shows, State Fairs, or JR Shows at the Majors, etc. There is some type of DNA requirement on the percentage Lowline bulls now, but that can only be a good thing, IMHO!
RE Highlands... You are right, IMHO. Doc Holliday is every bit as big as any Highland bull that I have ever seen. And while he wont sire quite as much hair as a Highland, he sires a considerable amount of hair & it will be manageable hair. A Highland's hair might be manageable, but IDK... I've seen the fullblood Highlands & I question it. Plus, Lowlines are polled & if you slick sheared a Highland & a Lowline, it wouldn't even be close, IMHO.
RE hip height... I'm not saying 48-50 inch steers will win everywhere, but it's reportedly winning in this region (IL & OH). Those are 2 extremely competitive states when it comes to steers. Personally, Doc Holliday, Yes Yes Yes (distributed by George Jenkins) are probably the 2 best Lowline bulls that I've seen as far as siring frame. Zeffirelli (again Jenkins is the distributor) is taller, but his calves certainly aren't. I've got some & I've seen several. I do like Zeff better than Yes though. There are others, but I haven't seen them consistently sire bigger frame (within the breed). If I was going to use a fullblood Lowline bull to make steers, I'd pick the bigger Lowline bulls & stay away from the Quartermasters & Caesars (both extremely good bulls, but little dinks). A lot of good middle frame (for the breed) Lowline bulls, like Fitz, Bluey, Hank, Machine & Transam, but you will likely need a big framed female to make those work for a steer project as 1/2 bloods, IMHO.
RE the Lowlines that you've seen at shows in Wisconsin... I know you didn't comment 1 way or the other on their frame size, but most Lowlines in the US are a little smaller than the more recently imported Australian genetics like I'm using & that Adamson/Jenkins & some others are using (see above). I purposely selected for the bigger end on frame size, but I'm still sticking with the lower birth weights. I bet most of the Lowlines that people on this board have seen are smaller than the ones that I've got & that some others have got, so I think that is why so many are against them. Can't exactly blamed them... I laughed out loud when I first saw the Lowline display in Denver in 96 or 97. ;-)
With all that said, the heifer that the Bloomberg's raised... was a Bluey out of a Heetseeker/Simmy female. A Bluey X Red Hot sold for $4,500 in Kansas City. Bluey's can be pretty good, but I think that most would want more frame than Bluey will give them, unless they have BIG cows. Regardless, several people are using Bluey on clubbies with success. So it all depends upon what size you want. If you want bigger, I'd go with a taller Lowline bull.
RE Arkansas... I'll be the first to admit that Arkansas probably isn't the stiffest competition. KY is not too bad though... we are close enough to Ohio, Indiana, Illinois & Missouri that it rubs off on us a little bit. But, winning your division (although not Grand or Res.), with an AOB Lowline heifer, at the World Beef Expo, isn't exactly "chopped liver". That may not be the stoutest competition either, but I wouldn't think it's too bad. The thing is, almost no Lowline breeders have even focused on the clubby market & many are breeding smaller on purpose. So any calf that you would see win is a 1 out of every 10 animal, rather than a 1 out of every 500 animal for just about any other breed.
I also agree that until a Lowline wins, it's all speculation. But, that doesn't mean that it couldn't happen. I think the 1/4 blood & 3/8 blood registrations will give us more markets, more exhibitors, & more animals to try to win those shows. I see the potential, some may not & that is OK with me. But, I totally agree that if a Lowline "anything" ever wins a major or bigger state fair, the argument will be over. Unfortunately, it hasn't happened "yet". That's why we have multi-page threads like these on SP.
Again, interesting post. (thumbsup)
