Calving Ease: Is it all "bull"?

[aj]

However I just read chap comment and there is alot of truth in what he said. You just can't stereo type people or cattle. JMO

 

[klintdog]

As a purebred breeder, it seems we deal with the same group of buyers. Every year we get the bull buyers who want a bull with a 65lb birthweight, an 800 weaning, a 1400 yearling, in a frame 6 package, with a CE EPD of 110 and a BW number of -5, and pay pennies on the dollar for him. 

 

[Jill]

Juli, that is a great post!  I can't speak for anyone else, but I do know my herd.  We went for 15 years never having a c-section, and rarely ever pulling a calf, last year and this year we have had 3 sections and pulled many.  We are still breeding to the same bulls we have always used, (and around here I like the 80+ calves), the only change we have made was we sold many of our really big cows and have downsized the frame size to 6 and 7's.  I know they may have a little higher intake, but when shooting for show calves like we do I think a little bigger framed cow is almost a must.
In response to the lowline post, a live calf is great won't agrue that, but there is no show market for them around here, there is no sale barn market for them around here, and if you keep them you end up with an even smaller frame heifer than the 6 I started out with, I don't see that as a plus from any direction.  I'm not sure why every post somehow ends up a lowline post, but in most cases it would be like breeding a corgi to a great dane, you may get a small puppy, but what on earth are you going to do with it?

 

[C-CROSS]

We just had 2 C-sections last night, both were bred to final answer and he is a proven calve easy.  But one was a Paddy Hfr, calf was 120, yes he is alive and well.  The other was an angusXcunia 602 and final answer, he was backwards and that did not help, but he would never have came out alive with pulling.  We have 2 live cows and calves.  We have used final answer for 3 years and never had to cut one out, but our weather is in the toilet, 20 below wind chill yesterday and that doesn't help either. 

 

[TJ]

Just seems like the answer to everything is lowlines anymore.  Just my opinion.

I haven't pulled a calf in 2.5 years.  One c-section but it wasn't due to size it was backwards and twisted.  I am very selective on calving ease in my cows and bulls due to being here alone while husband works off the farm.  BUT I don't say maines maines maines.  Honestly I could breed my cows to a Jersey and get calving ease but I don't.

I just think everyone has a different purpsose in the cattle industry, and I can honestly say lowlines wouldn't work in our world here.

No, the answer isn't always "Lowlines", even from me.  But, when you talk "calving ease" it usually is my answer... probably 95% of the time.   If Dori or Lazy G or somebody else has already mentioned it, I usually wont go there or if I know somebody is wanting to stick with their own breed I wont mention it.  Usually, I wouldn't post as much as I end up doing, but somebody usually gets all bent out of shape.  

But, why are all so many threads on these boards about "Heatwave"?  Because he excels in the showring?  But, he's not the only bull that excels in the showring, he's just probably the best & that's why he's mentioned so much.  Well, the truth is, a Lowline is awfully good when it comes to calving ease, but that doesn't mean that other bulls or breeds will not work.  When you talk about a topic, why not talk about something that will work?  That is all that I am doing.  If I sell all my Lowlines tomorrow, I'd still talk about Lowlines when it comes to calving ease, just like I talk about Chi's when it comes to rapid gain on grain, or Tarentaise when it comes to rich milk.  

Yeah, a Jersey will work well on heifers too.  But will those calves show?  Will they sell well?  Is their a premium market?  The answer would be yes to all 3 questions if you are talking about a Lowline, but probably not if you are talking about a Jersey.        

Gidget, I can't help it if you don't like Lowlines.  Again, if you don't like them, don't use them.  It's as simple as that.  But, when a thread is about calving ease & if it's talking about bulls, I'm going to share my experiences.  Just like if it's about Chi's... I'll talk about the ones that we used to have.  Or if it's about udders or butterfat content, I'll mention Tarentaise.   I might even toss around the word "Shorthorn" from time to time.  All I can do is talk about my experiences, what I've seen & what I know.  

BTW, I didn't know that this was "Maineworld", or "Shorthornworld", or any other specific breed, I thought it was supposed to be about "beef cattle", not 1 particular breed or even certain breeds.  But, it's almost like you'd like to exclude Lowline Angus... that's what it sounds like to me.  

Bottom line... If the OP did want a reply, they shouldn't have asked a question in the title, IMHO.  

Got to go... back later...  


   

 

[TJ]

TJ, I think it would only be fair to compare apples to apples.  Just curious, but if you were to study within the Lowline industry would you consider all of the lowline bulls to be calving ease bulls when you are breeding them to lowline cattle? Or are they considered calving ease when they are being bred to cattle that are double the frame score of the bull?  I am not really familiar with the genetics of the lowlines or how they factor their epd's.  Do they have a way to distinguish the calves registered out of lowline bulls as to weather they are out of other breeds versus lowline?  I would think that would make a huge difference. For example, if you took a lowline bull and AI bred 100 head of full blood Salers cows and they all calved unassisted with 70 lb calves would that be a fair test and would that rightly affect the lowline bull's epds versus using him on 100 lowline cows that all had c-sections and 50lb calves?

I am being sincere and hope this doesn't sound wrong.  I am seriously curious how the lowline breed registry  keeps that straight.  It would make a big difference on the true epd.

Juli

Juli, actually in the Lowline breed we don't have specific bulls advertised as "calving ease bulls".  It's just assumed that all the bulls will work on all the females, even the open heifers.  I know that isn't the norm in today's beef industry, but my dad told me when he was growing up, they have smaller cattle & they almost never assisted a calf & they didn't even know what a calf pulling winch or ratchet was.  So, yes, they are all considered calving ease within the breed & I don't know anyone who has had to assit any fullbloods, but I'm sure that some occasionally have. 

We don't have EPD's.  I think that is good in a lot of ways (avoid single trait selection), but sometimes it hurts when marketing to commercial people.  If we ever did have EPD's, I would hope that it would be weighted a lot more heavily based on fullblood to fullblood & not on fullblood to percentage... I don't know how that could be done, but it would be more accurate doing it that way.  But, you'd have to consider the percentage data at least somewhat, I would think or you couldn't have percentage EPD's. 

Speaking of EPD's... we do have a lot of people who are totally infatuated with GeneStar stars  & that worry's me.  16 star bulls are impressive in adds, just like a -6.5 BW EPD with a +75.5 WW EPD with a +35.5 Milk EPD would be in the bigger breeds, but there is a lot more to raising a beef animal than just tender, well marbled meat or everyone would be raising Wagyu. 

 

[TJ]

Gidget brings up an interesting point.  If all we wanted was a cow freshener... breed them to a Jersey or some other small framed breed.   However, most of us want it all..  a live calf who is either very marketable or showable.  I know it's been said before but in my part of the world, the price deduction on anything smaller than around a 5 is tremendous.  Sure I could change my entire program & marketing plan but that isn't feasible.    We wont' even talk about showing a smaller framed calf..

Well, I don't think too many Jersey crosses have sold for $9,500, but I do know that a Lowline sired female out of an All About You heifer, was sold by Doug Schmit.  Dori, who posts on this board, has sold several $3,500 1/2 blood heifers out of Bue Lingo cows.  Lot's of show quality percentage Lowlines bring $3,000 & $4,000.  But, lets just throw all that aside.

I've only sold 1 Lowline sired steer at a sale barn.  At 11 months old, it sold for $749 & some change.  It ate soy hulls maybe 45 days & definately no more than 60 because it was going to be a grass steer, but I was running out of room so I decided to put it with my dads & sell it at a feeder sale.  The State Grader put it in a pen that was considered medium to large frame #1.  But, I am getting a 10 cent premium, with no commission, selling grass steers, so I haven't had a reason to sell another steer at a sale barn.

Re changing your program... how many heifers do you have & how many cows?  You are probably talking a small percentage of your herd, not even close to your entire program.  What if you get a higher percentage calf crop because you didn't lose a calf or 2 or 3?  Will that make up for any discount?  You bet it will!  Also, IF you take a discount, you'll like make it back & then some the following year when your 1st calvers actually breed up a heat cycle or 2 (heavier calves) & more of them breed back (more total pounds).  Earlier calves & more heifers rebred is something that I don't think many consider, but that will put A WHOLE LOT more $$ in your pocket than a little discount will ever take away. 

You wont talk about showing, but I've got a picture of a frame 4 calf with a banner & there were lots of heifers at that Expo that didn't win one.  No, she wasn't a Lowline, but I've got 1/2 bloods about the same size & I think that 1/2 blood Doc heifer was actually bigger at the same age, so it could have been.  Not every calf is going to win & that includes a lot of frame 5, 6 & 7 heifers that I saw at the KY Beef Expo & 1 heifer that was smaller than that.    

All the above are actual facts, no bologna.  Like I told Gidget, if you don't want to use a Lowline, don't.  It's not a big deal. 

 

 

 

[TJ]

what happens when cattle that calving ease genetics bred to calving ease bulls have big calves?

About the only way that would happen is if you bred them to a bull that sires big birth weights.  I seriously doubt a bull like Gigolo Joe or Dr Who or TM Gus would sire a big calf out of a double bred calving ease female. 

I can tell you that fullblood Lowline cows have had calves sired by Dr Who & Charolais bull & I am not talking ET.   If a fullblood cow can be bred to bulls like that, a 1/2 blood cow surely could be.  I can't speak for calving ease sired females out of the bigger breeds, but I know that some claim they are harder calving.  Even in the larger breeds, I've never found that to be the case, but not saying that it isn't ever.   

 

[TJ]

BE CAREFUL with SINGLE TRAIT SELECTION!  
What happens when you continually line up low birth weight genetics?  you get low birth weights, but you may also give up maternal calving ease.  I have heard numerous reports form commericial men about their angus heifers being harder calving than at any time they can remember.  CE epd (Calving Ease Direct)  is much more important when evaluationg how a bull will actually calve out and MCE (Maternal Calving Ease - how easy a bulls daughters calve) needs to be evaluated as well, to be assured that the retained daughters aren't just low bw , but actually have the capability to have a calf.  
I have a PB Simmental bull,CNS Exclusive, that is terrible on his BW epd, but his calving ease number is surprisingly high considering his recorded bw's.  Calves come big (in lbs of live calf) but are born with minimal difficulty.  his percentile breakdown is 5.7 CE (top 60%) 4.5 BW (bottom 5%), 77.3 YW (top 10%) and 4.5 MCE (top 20%).  I can work with a bull like this, if I like his kind.  In my business,  light muscled, ugly ones are hard to sell, so I will give,  to get some take.  There are outliers in any population, if you want it all, you will have to dig deep, but can probably find something to fit most of your needs and expectations.  

I totally agree about single trait selection.  That's why I hate EPD's... it's ruined breeds, IMHO! 

That's also why I like Lowline Angus... not only do you get calving ease, you also get do-ability, width, soundness, carcass traits, fertility, etc., etc.     

With all that said, I just don't buy that low birth weight sires will sire harder calving females!  Maybe in some cases & maybe it's more pronounced in the bigger breeds.  But, it doesn't seem to be the case with Lowlines.  If that is so, how did the little fullblood Lowline cow have a Dr Who calf or how did the other little fullblood Lowline cow have a Charolais sired calf?  And why can Lowline breeders use any Lowline bull on any Lowline female & calve at 2 & we virtually have no problems (I haven't heard of any)? 

But, lets just say that it does happen.  Your heifer herd is usually only a small fraction of your bigger herd.  Why not sell all the heifers out of your heifers & take the money & spend it or buy a few replacements? 

 

[TJ]

Juli, that is a great post!  I can't speak for anyone else, but I do know my herd.  We went for 15 years never having a c-section, and rarely ever pulling a calf, last year and this year we have had 3 sections and pulled many.  We are still breeding to the same bulls we have always used, (and around here I like the 80+ calves), the only change we have made was we sold many of our really big cows and have downsized the frame size to 6 and 7's.  I know they may have a little higher intake, but when shooting for show calves like we do I think a little bigger framed cow is almost a must.
In response to the lowline post, a live calf is great won't agrue that, but there is no show market for them around here, there is no sale barn market for them around here, and if you keep them you end up with an even smaller frame heifer than the 6 I started out with, I don't see that as a plus from any direction.  I'm not sure why every post somehow ends up a lowline post, but in most cases it would be like breeding a corgi to a great dane, you may get a small puppy, but what on earth are you going to do with it?

If they wont work for you, don't use one, but that doesn't mean that they wont work for somebody & I think that is what is bothering so many.  That and the fact that people don't like to read about things that they don't like (other breeds). I was told recently that frame 4's wont compete in AOB heifer shows, but I've got proof that they will, maybe not at every show, but at a recent one with lots of good, high quality cattle.  I don't think that every post gets turned into a Lowline post, not even remotely close, not even everyone of mine .. but, we are talking calving ease.  If we were talking the show ring, you'd be talking Maine's.  Same difference.   

 

[VJ]

BE CAREFUL with SINGLE TRAIT SELECTION!  
What happens when you continually line up low birth weight genetics?  you get low birth weights, but you may also give up maternal calving ease.  I have heard numerous reports form commericial men about their angus heifers being harder calving than at any time they can remember.  CE epd (Calving Ease Direct)  is much more important when evaluationg how a bull will actually calve out and MCE (Maternal Calving Ease - how easy a bulls daughters calve) needs to be evaluated as well, to be assured that the retained daughters aren't just low bw , but actually have the capability to have a calf.  
I have a PB Simmental bull,CNS Exclusive, that is terrible on his BW epd, but his calving ease number is surprisingly high considering his recorded bw's.  Calves come big (in lbs of live calf) but are born with minimal difficulty.  his percentile breakdown is 5.7 CE (top 60%) 4.5 BW (bottom 5%), 77.3 YW (top 10%) and 4.5 MCE (top 20%).  I can work with a bull like this, if I like his kind.  In my business,  light muscled, ugly ones are hard to sell, so I will give,  to get some take.  There are outliers in any population, if you want it all, you will have to dig deep, but can probably find something to fit most of your needs and expectations.  

Great point. I know a guy near me that has a large hrdr of commercial Angus and Sim/Angus cows. He started AIing his hfrs to low bw Angus bulls. Since their calves were generally better than his herd bull sired calves he started keeping those hfrs and consequently breeding low bw genetics into his entire cow herd. Two yrs ago he told me he was averaging 65 - 70 lbs bw for his entire herd. He is now selecting herd bulls with larger bw epd's so his calves don't start with a 10 - 15 lbs disadvantage.
PS - I told him he had a herd of cows just perfect for Heatwave and he laughed in my face.

 

[TJ]

Which is why it is so important to start with a sound one, b/c it takes generations to fix structure where as carcass quality can be improved in one!

Agree 100%... nice post!

 

[red]

not sure why but topic got hijacked a little. I think Juli was speaking of more of bulls that are promoted as easy calving & then get complaints from breeders that their cow had a big one. People just don't take into count the cow's part as well as environmental situation.
No breed is everything to all people or we'd be seeing all cattle bred the same way.

Red

 

[TJ]

not sure why but topic got hijacked a little. I think Juli was speaking of more of bulls that are promoted as easy calving & then get complaints from breeders that their cow had a big one. People just don't take into count the cow's part as well as environmental situation.
No breed is everything to all people or we'd be seeing all cattle bred the same way.

Red

Red, I totally agree that the cow is part of the equation & so is environment... I said so in my 1st post.  Certain cows will increase the birth weight of a bulls calf... no argument from me at all!  What I didn't agree with, is how much it would increase it when talking about ALL BULLS.  Some bulls it wont effect nearly as much as others, IMHO.  It sounded like the OP was implying that there was no such thing as a bull that could work on heifers an extremely high percentage of the time (even on big birth weight genetics) or (even though it wasn't actually said) that there were no bulls that could keep it's calves under 90 lbs. at least 95+% of the time (regardless of the females used on), and I happen to totally disagree with that.  And I also think that it can be done without "throw away" calves... like using a jersey. 

Red, you make a great point!  I've worked with lots of breeds of cattle & I also agree that no breed is everything... probably why I have multi-breeds & why I crossbred.  Which is also why I don't see why some get all bent out of shape anytime a certain breed is mentioned.  Juli, Jill & Gidget are going to post about Maine's just like Justin, Doc, Shorthdawg, Justintime & others are going to post about Shorthorns, just like Matt, Dori, Lazy G, myself & others post about Lowlines.  And we have Clubby, Chi, Red Angus, Black Angus, Gelbveih, Braunveih, Belted Galloway & no telling "what all else" breeders on here.  With that in mind, when general topics are being discussed, other breeds will get discussed in those topics... it's just the nature of the beast.   Some readers wont use Maine's, some wont use Shorthorns, some wont use Simmental, some wont use Lowlines, some wont use anything black, some wont use red... BIG DEAL.   That doesn't mean that nobody uses any of them... in fact, several breeds have quite a few people using them!   A lot of breeds have had multiple posters on this board.  And that doesn't count all the people that read, but don't post.  Nothing wrong at all, IMHO, with hearing "the other side of the story", even when the other side disagrees with "TJ"!!  What a boring world it would be if we all agreed all the time on everything.    Sometimes it does get a little "bashy" & maybe I'm guilty too.  If I am, I apologize.       

Also, I want to point out that I DO NOT ONLY post about a certain breed as some on here often try to imply (even if it might seem like I do to some).  Most of the time when I post about 1 particular breed so much, I'm doing it in reply to others & I'm left in defensive mode.   

 

[DL]

It is biology - there are no 100% guarantees

Calving ease is a combination of birth weight, calf shape, bulls BW, cows BW, cow (heifer) size, pelvic diameter, genetics,  cow condition, environment, weather, diet, mineral program, management, location, and the phase of the moon

If more people did their homework when breeding heifers there would be fewer problems calving out heifers

Just because a bull is advertised as "calving ease" doesn't mean he is - if  he has no calves on the ground be wary, esp with heifers

A useful tool is BW and CE EPDs - but it is only a tool and if the accuracy is low it is a pretty useless tool

If your goal is to raise show calve suse the clubby bulls on cows not heifers

If you goal is to get your fat sassy show heifer bred and you would like her to be around for a long time breed her to a high accuracy low BW, CE Red Angus bull - you get a live calf and a live heifer which is sure better than a dead "great one" and a paralyzed heifer

 

[oakbar]

DL--you're exactly right!!    The whole calving ease question is affected by so many biological variables that sometimes I think its amazing it ever works out right.      Mother nature has actually had a great deal of tolerance for error caused by humans trying to manipulate her process.  Also, as you say, EPDs are only a good tool when the accuracy is high and new bulls do not  have enough progeny to assure any accuracy on their numbers.  We have had huge calves out of "calving ease" bulls and we've had several very easy births out of bulls that, from the printed information, could have very easily caused us problems.  We all need to remember that these numbers are just guides and, as any math equation can be,  only as good as the initial numbers used.  We also need to remember that neither Mother Nature nor the cows read the EPD charts(at least mine don't) and sometimes they just do their own thing.

 

[common sense]

Just one more thing too.  So many times I hear from people that you should never use " bull A" because they had a 120# calf once out of that bull and he's a cow killer.  I think it is extremely unfair to judge a bull based on ONE cow and one bad experience.  They never mention what the cow is and I also find that more often than not when you ask what they specifically weighed the calf with they will say that they don't actually own a scale but they couldn't pick the calf up so it must have weighed at least 120#.  I still chuckle about my son calling me one night while we were gone and he was in charge of the cows.  He had to carry a new calf into the barn and he said it was the biggest calf he had ever seen.  I was concerned since it was out of a first calf heifer.  I asked what he thought it weighed and he said it had to be over 110!  He called back about an hour later sounding a little humble.  He weighed the calf on the digital scale and it weighed 82 lbs.  It was stout and hairy but for a 6'7" guy it certainly wasn't the biggest calf he'd ever seen!  (lol)

 

[Jill]

TJ All I'm saying is that you are comparing apples to oranges.  The OP was talking about standard sized "calving ease" bulls.  What you are talking about is something completely different, whether your talking Mimi Hereford, Mimi Shorthorn or Lowline Angus they have their place in the industry the same as show cattle, but they are not going to throw the same standard sized calf that is just a fact of life, you will get a smaller calf, but you can't honestly tell me you're not giving up size in return on the other end.
While I do like Maines, I would like to see the posts your talking about, I own Maine, Shorthorn, Angus and Simmentals,  Maines aren't even actually the majority of my cattle, and I really don't recall very often posting about them, I don't disagree with your right to post the other side of the story, just don't see how so many topics seem to somehow lead to Lowline cattle.

 

[linnettejane]

It is biology - there are no 100% guarantees

Calving ease is a combination of birth weight, calf shape, bulls BW, cows BW, cow (heifer) size, pelvic diameter, genetics,  cow condition, environment, weather, diet, mineral program, management, location, and the phase of the moon

If more people did their homework when breeding heifers there would be fewer problems calving out heifers

Just because a bull is advertised as "calving ease" doesn't mean he is - if  he has no calves on the ground be wary, esp with heifers

A useful tool is BW and CE EPDs - but it is only a tool and if the accuracy is low it is a pretty useless tool

If your goal is to raise show calve suse the clubby bulls on cows not heifers

If you goal is to get your fat sassy show heifer bred and you would like her to be around for a long time breed her to a high accuracy low BW, CE Red Angus bull - you get a live calf and a live heifer which is sure better than a dead "great one" and a paralyzed heifer

"and the phase of the moon"
could you elaborate please?  i find this statement very interesting...

 

[knabe]

i still say a guy oughta have access to all raw data, especially if one belongs to an association.

one should be able to plot their own data and see ALL the data one submits for all submitted cattle in their association.

one should be able to see if the distribution of data rather than a number.  the numbers usdd don't really reflect what the outlier tails look like and how many calves are how many standard deviations out.

some is obviously what two animals combined are, ie fullblood maine on straight angus or purebred maine on angus and maine etc.