Cattle injected with air

[GONEWEST]

I hate to be argumentative, but I can't see any reason to allow my comments to be bashed when they aren't read properly.

No where in my comments, DUSTY did I say anything even reasonably near condoning putting someone in the hospital because you didn't like the placing of a cattle show. No where in anything I said did I condone the whining and complainers that make up what seems like 90% of the people at a county fair.Never mentioned anything about hearsay or having no evidence.JIT Never said or implied anything about being a bad loser. BLACK COWS  Didn't say anything abut beating someone up because he mouthed off at a cattle show.

What I DID say was that if you cheat me, I'm fine with it. I'm a big boy and I realize it's going to go on and if I don't like it I need to be doing something else. That's what I said. Ask anyone who knows me and you will find that I am a good loser and I teach all the kids I work with to be as well. My comment had absolutely ZERO to do with winning or losing.

The next thing I said was that it is not ok to cheat a child. At anything. In anyway. Anywhere.Those who do are the lowest forms of human life on the planet. JIT no where in what I wrote can you find where I condoned physical violence in the name of a cattle show. If you think there is no time that ANY measure would be acceptable in defense of a child, you are a very smart man, but you are just WRONG. Maybe being passive  and allowing others to  do children in any way they want is a Canadian thing?

In the example I gave, the man was blatantly open about the practices he was going to use to win. And he did. In more recent examples, here, the State Champion steer was found to have had lasix. The child was banned for the year. THE CHILD. Obvisously the child had nothing to do with it. The jock who administered it got no punishment, the ag teacher got no punishment, the parents got no punishment. All the other CHILDREN who were showing steers were cheated out of a fair chance to compete, those who would have had a legitimate chance to win were cheated not out of some $15 trophy, but out of all the time and effort they spent on their project, cheated out of the attitude that if you do things right and work hard enough you'll succeed, cheated out of the feed and supply money it took form the project just like they had been held up with a gun and had it taken away. There was EVIDENCE, he did it. It's not hearsay or sour grapes. And besides that, the jock cheated the child that owned the steer out of a year of showing. Do you think he would have risked the illegal activity if he knew he would take a whipping if he got caught??

The year before that a fair official caught a jock injecting a substance into an animal that was not intended to be injected n an animal. They called the sheriff and had him arrested for it. Sent the kid home and banned the jock from the fairgrounds. Of course he was their the next day and the kid was at home. But no one had the gonads to stand up to him so they just stood around and pointed and said "oh he's a bad person." GEEZ. These people just don't understand anything else. Like it i was said so many times before these people aren't afraid of fair officials, the courts, not afraid of anything because again,and like it has been stated before, the people who stand up to them are made to look like idiots. If they new there were real consequences to what they do, they wouldn't do it.

It is really troublesome that you all have taken what I said to be about winning or about disagreeing with placings. I think it is a reflection of what  the junior cattle shows have evolved into. Just like sports, the junior shows aren't about kids anymore. They are about adults living their lives through their kids. Kids are out there leading the animals, kids may even do all their work at home. But the SHOW and its' out come is now all about the adult. Adults actually own many of the "big time" cattle. It's gotten to be about the adults. And that's what you all have missed. My comments were about children. Not about winning, not even about cattle shows. It's my opinion there that is nothing that should be off the table when defending children. It's also my opinion that the people who cheat children at cattle shows have no fear of repercussions of any kind and that they will understand only one thing. Children deserve to be treated fairly. They must learn at some point that when you get to be an adult that's not going to happen. But they should be allowed to be children and all the rights that go along with that for a time. If you think it's wrong that I feel that children and their childhood and all that entails should be defended in what ever manner is necessary then so be it.

 

[BAILEYFARMS]

weather you want to air or not is your choice. But don't lecture me about ethics and teaching the young. How many of you change birth dates or show a roan heatwave as a shorthorn its all one in the same to me. Making something its not. Food for thought on all you perfect people out there that never break rules.One question if you sold a steer that won a major and found out it was aired would you advertise that you raised him, You bet you would.

 

[GONEWEST]

Bet I wouldn't

 

[Dusty]

If people today were willing to stand up for their children like those people were this crap would cease. If people knew they were going to have broken bones, teeth out and hospital stays if they were caught, it wouldn't happen.

How is that quote not condoning violence at a cattle show? 

 

[justintime]

TMJ,  if you were to call someone from my part of the country weak because they don't cheat, it'd get your mouth busted. When I was in high school  a time when a few Americans still had some guts, there was a person at a district show who was particularly arrogant about how much he had paid for a steer and all the "tricks" the people he was bringing in from IA, unheard of at the time, were going to use to make sure his little girl won the next day.  Well she did. And then 6 of the parents of the children who had been cheated put that man in the hospital that night. If people today were willing to stand up for their children like those people were this crap would cease. If people knew they were going to have broken bones, teeth out and hospital stays if they were caught, it wouldn't happen. I can't freakin believe you said someone was weak because they won't cheat. People who are weak cheat children.

Are you serious?  You condone beating someone to the point of putting them in the hospital over a cattle show?  What kind of example is that?  Get beat in the show so you put the dad of the girl that beat you in the hospital?  That is way worse than cheating in a cattle show.

When you get beat you shake the winners hand.  I've shaken the hands of a lot of people that I didn't care for over the years, but they won, they beat me.  Instead of setting the example of beating someone into a coma,why don't you get a better calf, work harder and then you beat them next year.

Most cattle are aired 2-3 months before they show.  So even when they cut the head off and the carcass is hanging in the meat lab the aired part has filled in with fat.  People might know or suspect one has been aired, but it is impossible to prove. 

Is it right.  No.  Can you do anything about it?  Unless you have hard evidence, like a video of the calf being aired, even then you better have shot of the head with the eartag visible. No.  So the only thing you can do is keep trying and do your own thing.

Also it gets old hearing the same people complain every year that they didn't win cuz of this or that.  Or hear people say so and so cheated...  If you don't agree with something thats fine, but just keep your mouth shut.  90% of the people that complain about cheating are the ones who would never win anyway.  If the people that complain spent more time worrying about their own animals instead of everyone elses they might actually get in the purple sometime.

Gonewest... please reread what you wrote and explain to us what we were supposed to take from your comments. Re- read the part " and then 6 of the parents of the children that had been cheated, put the man in the hospital that night.If people today were willing to stand up for their children like those people were this crap would cease"

Please inform me, and the others who read this, exactly what this was SUPPOSED to mean. It appears that I was not the only one who read it the same way.

 

[shorthorn boy]

weather you want to air or not is your choice. But don't lecture me about ethics and teaching the young. How many of you change birth dates or show a roan heatwave as a shorthorn its all one in the same to me. Making something its not. Food for thought on all you perfect people out there that never break rules.One question if you sold a steer that won a major and found out it was aired would you advertise that you raised him, You bet you would.

I wouldn't consider changing birth weights as extreme as physically altering an animal

 

[cowz]

Unfortunately, this is becoming common all over.  I have said this before:

Let your opinion be known with your dollar.  Never buy calves from or hire the fitters that do this.  Eventually they will feel the sqeeze.  Pressure your extension agents and fair boards to watch for this.  Most of them do nothing.  Most of the families that do this make it hard to control because they infiltrate or brown nose the agents and fair boards.  Kinda hard to kick out the fair board president's hunting buddy!  Who will his kids go water skiiing with .....geesh!

I wish there was some sort of ultraviolet light test that was accurate for injection marks!  One of our local fairboards has sent the hide of the champion steer to a lab to look for injection marks.  In this case, I think the accusation was made by a rival family.  This family's kids have been out of 4H for several years, but have a couple of "rent a kid" families...WHO MUST WIN.  When an "outsider family" finally gets it.....we have to throw a fit.   SAD, really sad.

 

[GONEWEST]

JIT The gist had nothing to do with placings of a rinky dink cattle show. It has to do with taking advantage of children.

 

[marsh]

I just started reading this post and find it very interesting of everyone's opinion.  I have been in the business for many years and have never done this or anything else, but have probably lost several times at the county level by steers that have been aired.  I kept my mouth shut and tried harder the next year.  I sold a steer a few years ago to a jock and he asked me when he came to pick him up if I had a chute.  I said yes and did not think much of it.  He showed up with an air tank and some needles.  I had not received a check yet and never did because I would not let him put the calf in the chute.  I ended up moving the steerfor a lot less money to a family and they went on to win grand at their county fair.  I lost some money on this decision, but I ended up much more satisfied in the end.  My thought has always been to strive to raise them good enough that people will not think to do this type of thing, but that is a lot easier said than done in this business.  I know these types of things will keep happening, but win or lose or rite or wrong I will not take part in them.

 

[Eastcows]

First, for all of you saying cheating is okay, please think for one second about the repercussions of saying the horrible things done to animals on a public website. PETA can use this, and granted the cheating is only in an extremely small part of the cattle industry, but they can blow it out of proportion. It is completely different to talk about what other people do, but everything you say is visible to everyone. PETA doesn't need any ammunition, and frankly if I hated cattle showing this post gives me some pretty good ammunition.

Second, cheating is cheating it is wrong. No questions asked. Complaining because someone beat you is also wrong. However, if you know someone cheated many people think that you should keep your mouth shut, I thought this too. However, the more I think about it, the more it becomes apparent that by keeping our mouths shut we are enabling them and allowing this cheating AND animal abuse to occur. With that said, don't shoot your mouth off unless you have proof.

Third, great animals can and have won shows clean. I have won some huge shows clean, never aired, pumped, fed steroids, or even changed a birthweight. However, it is much more difficult to win clean.

Fourth, it's just a cattle show, if your cheating grow up your not 15 anymore. There are bigger things in life, and everytime you cheat you are selling your integrity for that chance to win. If you integrity is worth winning one show than I feel sorry for you.

 

[GONEWEST]

I am not here to argue or belittle anyone. However, I hope that no one who knows me would ever expect me not to stand up for children in what ever manner was needed.
I'll try again to explain what I was trying to convey.

I'm sorry if you feel  I am too passionate about children. I don't care who wins cattle shows. I do care that children work really hard and parents spend lots of money and don't have a fair chance to compete because some adult is unethical. I do believe in standing up for what is right, and doing it in any manner that is required. I believe that some people can't be reasoned with and that severe  punishment is all that can  deter them. I believe that applies to all areas not just a cattle show, that in itself, has no relevance in life. I believe there is no lower form of human life than an adult who would steal from a child. Whether that be it's innocence or it's childhood, its money, its inheritance or an award that child deserved for its accomplishment. I believe that if children knew their parents would stand up for them in what ever manner was required, they would feel more confident in pursuing what ever dreams they desired. I believe learning sportsmanship and learning to be a good loser is an important life lesson. I believe learning to be a being a good winner is equally important.

I do not believe in acting like the parents at a kids baseball game that pitch a fit because umpires miss a call. The people who complain all the time at these rinky dink fairs are the same one who complain all day long in everyday life. They are indeed the C.A.V.E. people JIT  mentioned before. It seems to be human nature to be jealous of success and try to assassinate their character because they are successful. It is wrong and it gets old.

But people here are dieing in wars because they stand up for what is right .TMJ mentioned he was in Vietnam. People died there and they had no real dog in that fight other than right from wrong. Why is it so bad to stand up for what is right, physically if need be, for your own children?

To review, I don't care who wins or places where in a kids cattle show or a goat show or what ever. I do care if the placing is altered by an adult who is unethical. I believe that  is stealing from all the other children. Stealing from a child is as low as you can go. If my entire life, I never win at Denver, Louisville,  Houston, or Jackson AGAIN, because I refuse to be unethical towards children, so be it. I'm fine with that. If you aren't as passionate toward the defense of children and their right to be children, that's ok with me. Just don't tell me I'm a bad person because I am willing to stand up for them.

 

[farwest]

I would have to ask again in this thread as I have asked in another.  How many children has gonewest raised or is raising.  It would be real interesting to know.

 

[DL]

I would have to ask again in this thread as I have asked in another.  How many children has gonewest raised or is raising.  It would be real interesting to know.

I'm confused - having children means you can reproduce - raising children means you kept them and are making an attempt to do a good job - it doesn't make you a saint or smarter, more moral or more ethical than anyone else  - prominent members of SP have "raised" children and these children are either in jail or in and out - your question is irrelevant to the topic.  Many people spend a great deal of time helping children who are not their own - your ability to denegrate a good thing is certainly not the positive tone you keep asking people to use. Pulling the kid card is getting old

 

[Jace]

I would have to ask again in this thread as I have asked in another.  How many children has gonewest raised or is raising.  It would be real interesting to know.

I'm confused - having children means you can reproduce - raising children means you kept them and are making an attempt to do a good job - it doesn't make you a saint or smarter, more moral or more ethical than anyone else  - prominent members of SP have "raised" children and these children are either in jail or in and out - your question is irrelevant to the topic.  Many people spend a great deal of time helping children who are not their own - your ability to denegrate a good thing is certainly not the positive tone you keep asking people to use. Pulling the kid card is getting old

Agreed

 

[Jenny]

TOTALLY AGREE

if just the ability to produce a kid meant something
then there would not be parents accused of child abuse,
child endangerment; there would be no need for social services
child protection, there would be nothing like termination of parental
rights in our courts;
I could go on and on.

Far West, your whining the same tune needs to stop.

 

[Show Heifer]

I have re-read several post and stand by my orginal thoughts. I figure first impressions are usually right, the edit button being used (or "it was misinterpruted" card)  just doesn't cut it.

And as a total aside from the post: Bearing children, or being  sperm donor for a child doesn't make you "holier than thou" on the topic of defending children. One of the problems with our country  is that we have too many egg and sperm donors and not enough parents.
Serving in a war doesn't make you (generic you) any better than anyone else, if you (generic you) do not have the moral/ethics to back up what you were fighting for.
The problem with the youth programs is there are too many 40,50,60 year old 4-Hers.  Sadly and pathtically trying to accomplish what they couldn't do when they were young themselves and living through their offspring.

This thread has turned into a joke about an industry that will soon, without self regulation, will be a thing of the past. 

 

[herefordfootball]

weather you want to air or not is your choice. But don't lecture me about ethics and teaching the young. How many of you change birth dates or show a roan heatwave as a shorthorn its all one in the same to me. Making something its not. Food for thought on all you perfect people out there that never break rules.One question if you sold a steer that won a major and found out it was aired would you advertise that you raised him, You bet you would.

I'd better not find out one of my steers had been aired, and if it was, I wouldnt advertise it if it won NWSS or NAILE  or the OKYE or any other show for that matter. I dont want anything to do with people that abuse their animals. And guess what if you do that to my steer, I'm gonna let everybody I know that you air cattle, and they will let everyone they know you air cattle and guess what its gonna be real hard for you to find someone that'll sell you a steer knowing you air your cattle. And if they do sell it to ya, guess what else you're probaly gonna pay double or triple of what the thing is worth, which is still wrong that they sell it to ya.

So all in all will I physically assault you like others on this thread suggested, absolutely not, but I will ruin your name and rep which in my book is worse than getting beat up.

 

[herefordfootball]

Baileyfarms, I've never changed birthdates, or lied about genetics to get into a breed show. Never made anything its not without good, honest, hardwork. There is your ethics for ya, try and follow them and the world will be a better place.

 

[GONEWEST]

The problem with the youth programs is there are too many 40,50,60 year old 4-Hers.  Sadly and pathtically trying to accomplish what they couldn't do when they were young themselves and living through their offspring.

That's it. Same problem with youth sports.

 

[TMJ Show Cattle]

Thats right, same as sports....the point that John was making earlier is that this has been going on for a LONG time, and NOT by us, but by people that are know very well in the business. 

In my opinion, airing is unethical.  But it is also my responsibility as a parent to teach my girls that it is more than likely done in more places than you would care to think.  I believe the kids need to be AWARE it is going on, because if they are trying to raise a champion, they need to know what it looks like. When I say RAISE, I mean breed that cow the right way.

I , for one, am extremely proud to say I have 3 girls 16, 14, 11, that can run their own cows through the chute, make business calls and decisions with their cattle, and KNOW what happens in the show ring. There has been and will always be ONE winner of every show.  And yes, I love to see my kids do well in the ring....so if that makes me a parent re-living my 4-H years, so be it. I am sure my parents felt the same way when they watched me, even my grandparents ! PATHETIC????

As with all parent decisions, I will guide my kids through this, just as I would tell them that drugs are on the street .  Airing...drugs...ect ...HAS been and WILL be there. 


Carrie