grass finished or corn

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trevorgreycattleco

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I found this on ranchers net, doing some research. Found this very interesting. They have different terms than us but you can still get the idea. Grass fed vs. corn fed which side to you prefer? I personally am on the grass side. Just thought other views on this would be good to hear. Veld I am guessing is a word for grasses, rangeland?


South Africa - Grass fed cattle a whole new ball game from feed lots
26 May 2009
Breeding cattle to thrive on veld means a total turnaround from breeding for the feedlot, and farmers can finish cattle for slaughter directly from the veld, contends Zimbabwean cattleman and animal scientist Johan Zietsman. It all depends on genetically programmed body condition, well-balanced hormone levels and the right type of bull. Annelie Coleman reports.

“cattle farmers have a simple choice,” says Zimbabwean cattleman and animal scientist Johan Zietsman. “Produce cattle that gain body condition naturally on veld, or artificially in the feedlot. But the genetics of the two types differ significantly.
“The main objective in cattle farming is to convert grass to meat and improve the veld where the animals are reared. Emphasis should be on higher productivity, lower costs and sustainability. Price isn’t as important.”

Johan stresses that stocking rate is the most important factor in determining profitability and return on capital. “To increase stocking rate and improve veld condition, eliminate selective grazing,” he urges. “Cattle must be able to utilise all available vegetation and be bred for a high relative intake to do well on veld. Current selection criteria ignore all this, leading to cattle that need ‘improved’ nutrition to stay productive.”

Thriving on veld
“The determining factors in breeding veld-adapted, productive cattle with the best possible body condition are a relatively small frame, climate adaptation, parasite and disease resistance and a large appetite,” says Johan.“It’s possible to achieve calving at two years with a high reconception rate by combining high relative growth and optimum body condition with a well-balanced hormone level. Without genetically programmed body condition, it’s impossible to finish cattle for slaughter at a young age on the veld.”“A veld-productive cow drops her first calf at age two and weans it at at least 50% of her own body weight, with little or no inputs other than enough grass and water. Veld-productive oxen will be ready for slaughter at an early age (milk tooth to two tooth) directly from the veld, or with minimum supplements under extreme conditions, including on sourveld.

Eating for body condition
“Everything in cattle production revolves around body condition, whether genetically programmed or out of a feedbag,” Johan continues. “Genetics are essential to breed veld-productive cattle that can deliver maximum profitability per hectare from conception to slaughter. While a large-framed animal’s total feed intake is greater than that of a smaller one, the relative intake is smaller, Johan explains. “The average 600kg cow eats 67% more than the average 300kg cow, but the intake relative to body weight is 20% lower, so the large animal’s body condition is lower.

“The swing to large-frame animals in the 1970s and the use of Phase D and C tests has damaged the industry. These animals are genetically handicapped as they require grass with a higher concentration of nutrients to attain the same condition as a smaller one on a relatively higher intake and non-selective grazing.
“There’s a negative correlation between size, absolute growth, feedlot feed conversion and body condition on the veld. “Fat meat requires more energy than lean meat, so leaner animals grow faster with a better feed conversion ratio. A fat animal loses less weight than a lean one when drawing on body reserves, since fat can contain three to four times the energy of lean meat tissue. “Long-haired animals get hotter in warm weather, inhibiting appetite and eventually body condition. Animals susceptible to parasite infestation and disease will also eat less. However, some animals naturally eat more, irrespective of other factors, and it makes sense to select big eaters, which will grow faster and put on more fat reserves.”

The essential ‘pony’ bull
Bulls have the greatest impact on the genetics of a herd and careful bull selection is vital, says Johan. “A farmer must ensure the bulls carry veld-productive attributes over to their progeny. That’s the only one type of bull that should be used – not ‘heifer bulls’ for small calves, ‘weaner bulls’ for milk, etc.” But the absolute growth values currently used focus on the opposite traits to those needed for veld productivity, and as a result the best bulls are often culled. “The right type of bull for producing veld-reared beef is the type that’s mostly discriminated against – short and stout with a tight skin,” says Johan. “These are indicators of a rapid relative growth rate. A bull with a tight skin can be likened to 7kg put into a 5kg container – a ‘pony’ bull.”

He explains that a bull that grows quickly relative to its full size will put on weight effectively and rapidly get fat. His heifers will reach sexual maturity sooner and his oxen will be ready for slaughter from the veld earlier, both characteristics influenced by body condition. “A successful bull’s fertility is determined by optimum body condition and a balanced hormone level,” says Johan. “Such a bull’s testes must be well-developed at 12 months, and he must appear masculine with a good meat-to-bone ratio. A strong herd instinct and mild temperament is important as well.
“The preferred bull’s dam must have calved early and regularly and weaned calves at at least 50% of her body weight.”

Success with the African genotype
Johan is convinced the indigenous African genotypes are most successful on the veld. “The two types available in South Africa are the Sanga and the Zebu. The Afrikaner, Nguni and Tuli are Sanga types while the Boran is a Zebu. But I feel the Afrikaner exhibits more Zebu characteristics because it has a larger hump over the shoulder than the Sanga type and a loose skin.” The Afrikaner has the fewest structural defects of all the cattle breeds in South Africa, he explains. “The breed’s ability to get fat is only surpassed by the Boran, while its meat-to-bone ratio is comparable to the Boran and the Tuli.

“The Afrikaner’s only, but very important, defect is a lack of fertility as measured against the age at first calving and consequent intercalving period. Breeding for the show ring and herd inspections has led to a hormonal imbalance in the breed, illustrated by some bulls with effeminate heads and some cows with big humps.”
This problem can be eradicated through strict selection, says Johan. “Some breeders are doing just that. All heifers must be put to bulls with strong, masculine heads and well-developed testes at the age of 14 to 15 months. Pony-type bulls must be selected based on their dams’ fertility, maturity at 12 months and a compact body type. Cows must have small humps and wean calves at 50% of their own body weight.”
“This type of Afrikaner can’t be selected in the show ring, through herd inspections or through Phase C and Phase D testing. BLUP breeding values are useless, as the selection process must be much simpler.” E-mail Johan Zietsman at [email protected].

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sue

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You just trumped JIT for the longest post :eek:
 

Freddy

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Do we really want grass fed ,as far as for peoples health, just read an article not to long ago about about testing the fats an nutrients in both grass fed an corn fed an came to the conclusion that when all fat was considered the corn fed had an advantge because it carried more good things for us that grass fed did not provide ...
 

trevorgreycattleco

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Freddy said:
Do we really want grass fed ,as far as for peoples health, just read an article not to long ago about about testing the fats an nutrients in both grass fed an corn fed an came to the conclusion that when all fat was considered the corn fed had an advantge because it carried more good things for us that grass fed did not provide ...

It's not so much the health issues I like but the natural selection the cattle would go through buy not making artificial inputs.

I just think cows have been grazing grass not corn for 1,000's of years. We make them eat corn because it's cheap, not good for them. I think there are studies where grass trumps corn as well. Depends on where the info comes from I guess.
 

sam1988

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definitely corn for taste.  grass for leaner beef, but Id rather just eat more veggies.
 

knabe

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trevorgreycattleco said:
I just think cows have been grazing grass not corn for 1,000's of years. We make them eat corn because it's cheap, not good for them. I think there are studies where grass trumps corn as well. Depends on where the info comes from I guess.

cows have been grazing grasses which have seeds which contain sugar for thousands of years.  we make them eat corn because we haven't found/made a distribution for it or  anything cheaper.

forget the studies on whether grass trumps corn. prove it and market it for yourself.  there is high sugar perennial rye grass you can plant, nobody here seems to have done it.  i've done it and it grows decently.

it's sugar and somewhat volume that makes cattle fat just like humans.  it doesn't matter what the source is and if it comes in volume outside "naturally" available sources and is economical, then rumens will adapt over time otherwise they wouldn't have adapted to grass or anything else.  if distribution overcomes other cost models, they will prevail.  diversity is a good thing. 

 

sue

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Dr Rowntree at MSU has a grass program starting. September 15 and 16, Andy Williams CEO of tallgrass will be conducting a seminar at Lake City  Research Farms in Michigan. I attended Rowntrees open house two weeks ago- what a breath of fresh air for MSU!

 

knabe

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sue said:
Dr Rowntree at MSU has a grass program starting. September 15 and 16, Andy Williams CEO of tallgrass will be conducting a seminar at Lake City  Research Farms in Michigan. I attended Rowntrees open house two weeks ago- what a breath of fresh air for MSU!

what was different at the seminar.  the only one that could have been different was the germplasm of the cattle.  did they have taste testing, time to harvest, cost of carcass/acre any other reports.
 

BadgerFan

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"there is high sugar perennial rye grass you can plant, nobody here seems to have done it.  i've done it and it grows decently." -Knabe


I interseeded some Sucra seed, but it's been essentially overtaken by the native grasses.  It's still there, but it's not anywhere near dominant.  I'll soon interseed some red clover and I suspect the rye will be pretty much gone.  Wasn't worth the money here.  The other mixtures I seeded have been much more productive.

 

chambero

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Natural selection in Africa and natural selection in the U.S. are two different things.  I would imagine a cow in Africa better be able to run pretty fast - even in the more civilized parts.  I bet the ones tough enough to make it aren't much fun to run through a chute.  The lions probably would really enjoy some of our short legged fat cattle.  I bet they'd vote for corn fed beef.

It all comes down to resources.  I know its a little off topic and I'm being a little tongue-in-cheek, but I'd be reluctant to take much advice on anything to do with agriculture from anyone in Africa.  Last I heard people still starved by the millions there. 

Land is our most expensive and therefore limiting resource in agriculture, hence we developed our methods that allow us feed ourselves and most of the rest of the world.  I think trying to finish cattle on grass is much, much more expensive and would take much longer.  Time is always money, and it would taste worse, what's the point other than making it another variation on agriculture as a hobby?
 

trevorgreycattleco

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chambero said:
Natural selection in Africa and natural selection in the U.S. are two different things.  I would imagine a cow in Africa better be able to run pretty fast - even in the more civilized parts.  I bet the ones tough enough to make it aren't much fun to run through a chute.  The lions probably would really enjoy some of our short legged fat cattle.  I bet they'd vote for corn fed beef.

It all comes down to resources.  I know its a little off topic and I'm being a little tongue-in-cheek, but I'd be reluctant to take much advice on anything to do with agriculture from anyone in Africa.  Last I heard people still starved by the millions there. 

Land is our most expensive and therefore limiting resource in agriculture, hence we developed our methods that allow us feed ourselves and most of the rest of the world.  I think trying to finish cattle on grass is much, much more expensive and would take much longer.  Time is always money, and it would taste worse, what's the point other than making it another variation on agriculture as a hobby?


I'm sure that guy is just a idiot and knows nothing. I guess the whole continent is filled with nobodies but nomadic shaka zulus and it's just a dust bowl.

I have tried it both ways with finishing cattle. BY FAR and AWAY my customers prefer the grass fed. If they liked corn fed, I would raise it that way. All of them say they enjoy the meat without all the excessive fat and it still tastes great. No tenderness problems at all. Actuall very tender. Genetics play a big role in when they finish. I can finish a bull calf on grass and a little corn (4 lbs) day during the winter. I understand that is not technically grass fed but the last 4 months of their life they are on their own, on pasture with nothing else. I'm happy where I am so far and so is my customers. I suggest you think it takes to long because thats what you have heard not actually what you have tried.

Beiber Red Angus seems to have no problems selling genetics to south Africa. Guess those tribes are gettin smarter.

Like knabe said find what works for you and prove it. The rest will take care of itself.
 

chambero

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Did you miss the tongue-in-cheek part?  I couldn't imagine the difficulties of trying to raise cattle in southern Africa with the climatic challenges and predators - which really are in that part of the continent.  I certainly didn't say anything about "tribes".  Most production agriculture in Africa (as opposed to subsistence agriculture) is controlled by descendents of European colonists - largely Germans (commonly referred to as Afrikaners) and English.  And in general, they ain't real worried about feeding the indigenous populations on the continent with beef production.


You asked us to comment which side we are on.  I vehemently disagree with views that large-scale grass-fed beef operations are better than our feedlot system in this country.  There is a reason that our feedlot system was developed in the first place.

As far as length of time to finish, everyone I've talked to personally that does it and everything I've read indicates that purely grass-fed steers certainly aren't ready for slaughter at 18 months of age.  We don't keep our commercial cattle till they are finished - we sell to feedlots.  But we do keep lots of replacement heifers who are run on a combination of native pasture and winter wheat with minimum feed inputs.  I know first hand that they are probably 300 lbs+ lighter in weight at the end of winter (March) than their counterparts we feed heavily for show.  I certainly know which one would be better eating.

Arguing that grass-fed beef is more "sustainable" or environmentally-friendly is incorrect.  The video someone put up just below my first post is actually pretty good.

What are some of the larger grass-fed beef operations in this country?  I'd be very interesting to hear what they have to say.  I've never known of any significant ones in our part of the country.  We'll run across wealthy folks from the city who buy "ranches" and start promoting their products, but when you really dig into it at most they might be selling dozens of cattle, certainly not hundreds.  And most don't last very long at all.

For those of you that do sell grass-fed beef direct to consumers, how much effort do you have to put into marketing?  How long do your customers stick with it (repeat customers that have been with you for years) or is there a lot of constant turnover?

 

Okotoks

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chambero said:
Natural selection in Africa and natural selection in the U.S. are two different things.  I would imagine a cow in Africa better be able to run pretty fast - even in the more civilized parts.  I bet the ones tough enough to make it aren't much fun to run through a chute.  The lions probably would really enjoy some of our short legged fat cattle.  I bet they'd vote for corn fed beef.

It all comes down to resources.  I know its a little off topic and I'm being a little tongue-in-cheek, but I'd be reluctant to take much advice on anything to do with agriculture from anyone in Africa.  Last I heard people still starved by the millions there. 

Land is our most expensive and therefore limiting resource in agriculture, hence we developed our methods that allow us feed ourselves and most of the rest of the world.  I think trying to finish cattle on grass is much, much more expensive and would take much longer.  Time is always money, and it would taste worse, what's the point other than making it another variation on agriculture as a hobby?
This is a pretty important point. There are parts of Canada where about the only thing you can produce is beef or sheep because you sure couldn't grow crops. But most of the calves are going to end up in the feedlot for the winter because we can't graze year round. In our feedlots we use alot of barley which also makes flavorful beef. We use more corn than we used to but our growing season limits how much corn we can grow. They are getting varieties that will grow in a shorter season. It really comes down to maximizing the product you can produce. There has been some interesting research on finishing on pasture in Canada and in some areas it can be done.
 

trevorgreycattleco

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I never said large scale grass operations were better, I said finishing them on grass can be done in less time than you claim.
Sorry I guess I didn't catch the tounge in cheek *(even tho you said it). My bad
As far as customers, I do not advertise one bit. I started selling freezer beef as a extra income but put little effort into it. As I have gone along on my journey it has become clear to me where my bread and butter is. I have twice the customers this year as last and all have already ordered for next year. Not one bad thing has been said. I have had more phone calls this summer than ever before and it makes me look at the registered deal as a hobby almost. Four of my customers(retired farmers and cattleman) were very loud in the disapproval of grass fed but went ahead and tried it because they like me and I think they wanted to say we told you so! They had always ate grain fed from a feedlot that my friends run. They have all told me one on one it is the best they have had. One fella even said, "I don't know what you did, I guess it must be these new genetics around".

I'm not saying feedlot cattle are inferior. I'm just saying in my little world, I'm getting along good without corn for the most part. My goal this year is to totally eliminate it from the steers.
Still 4 lbs a day last year is by no means full feed. I had a average of 1150 lbs at 13 months. Not finished maybe? But big enough! Dressed out at good avgs over 60%


I'm not a expert on grass fed operations put Grahms in Georgia, Shoshone Angus, Keeney Angus, Oak Hollow Angus to name a few I have knowledge of that are pretty successful.

Most good commercial operations sure don't use anything other than grass and mineral.  Profitable ones that is.
 

simtal

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grass fed beef will not meet the worlds food demand.

end of story, "You know, this grass fed beef wasnt too bad, course since we have no food to eat anything sounds pretty good"

This is like ford coming out and saying, "lets make the model T again"

"I dont use corn to finish my cattle"- Great, nobody cares.  While your at it, lets put hogs back on pasture too since hogs didnt eat corn 1000 years  ago either...

why must all things "industrial" be inherently evil. 

 

Doc

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trevorgreycattleco said:
Most good commercial operations sure don't use anything other than grass and mineral.  Profitable ones that is.

To me there is a big difference in a cow herd on grass( which I thought most people did) &  grass finished beef. My question is , if grass fed beef  has less input , then why is it more expensive? Like simtal says (to paraphrase) if you are trying to feed the world , you can't do it with grass fed beef that is 1 1/2 times as much as corn fed. JMO.
 

chambero

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Grass finished beef is less of a feed bill, but the added expense comes in if you factor in cost of land and time.  Probably the environment And genetics is a huge factor in how efficiently it can be done. 
 
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