New Beef Registry

[Mark H]

CBCR,

You didn't answer any of the questions I asked you.
The BIF data was developed by MARC and merely published by BIF.  BIF has no independent capability to produce EPDs and rely on breed associations and MARC  to do this for them. 
You do not mention how you plan on paying for all the database development and across breed EPD comparisons you will need.  Your start up cost will be enormous.  How do you plan on being more cost effective relative to traditional breed associations on registration costs given your start up costs?
Many composite lines of cattle have formed associations and crashed and burned due to their small populations and lack of breeder discipline. The Leachman composites area good example of this.
Beefbooster did not list all the breeds in each synthetic line but they do track them and keep them specific to  each line. Email them and ask.
As you state the U of A synthetic lines were not the first crossbreds used for breeding.  That was not the point.  The U of A synthetics is where they found that maintaining hetreozygosity in a line of composite cattle would also maintain heterosis as well.  Other crossbred programs tried to make a new breed based on classical lines- e.g. fixing common color, markings etc. and used a closed breeding program to fix the traits composite lines do not do this.

 

[cbcr]

CBCR,

You didn't answer any of the questions I asked you.
The BIF data was developed by MARC and merely published by BIF.  BIF has no independent capability to produce EPDs and rely on breed associations and MARC  to do this for them. 
You do not mention how you plan on paying for all the database development and across breed EPD comparisons you will need.   Your start up cost will be enormous.  How do you plan on being more cost effective relative to traditional breed associations on registration costs given your start up costs?
Many composite lines of cattle have formed associations and crashed and burned due to their small populations and lack of breeder discipline. The Leachman composites area good example of this.
Beefbooster did not list all the breeds in each synthetic line but they do track them and keep them specific to  each line. Email them and ask.
As you state the U of A synthetic lines were not the first crossbreds used for breeding.  That was not the point.  The U of A synthetics is where they found that maintaining hetreozygosity in a line of composite cattle would also maintain heterosis as well.  Other crossbred programs tried to make a new breed based on classical lines- e.g. fixing common color, markings etc. and used a closed breeding program to fix the traits composite lines do not do this.

The database and program has been developed, and as with any software program will continually be undergoing changes and improvements as the users of our program as users ask question or suggestions.  This has been a collaborative effort.  Did you look at our fees for registering an animal?  Did you look at the Herd Assessment rates.  What are some of the breed registries charging?  $15 or more for registrations and what about herd assessments $10 -$15 or more per cow.  We are charging $10 for registration and as for herd assessments if a breeders has 25 head paying the minimum of $10 per month it is less that $5 for the year.  Along with this are the calculated EPD's and the entering of health records, vaccination, various reports and other features comparable to a standalone software program that you put on your computer.  And if you thing about it, what is the cost of the software program?  For seedstock producers it can quite expensive and they want to charge you for purchasing an upgrade every two or three years.  Our program is web based, always up to date and when a new feature is available, EVERYONE using the program has access to it.

Everything has been developed including the Across Breed Comparison database, and we are ready to offer our services to the beef industry.  We have calculated our rates and they are affordable.

Look at my post again, I feel that I answered your questions.  In your comment to write "BIF has no independent capability to produce EPDs and rely on breed associations and MARC  to do this for them."  If this is the case, then WHY are there BIF adjustment tables?  Why do the existing breed registries manipulate their calculated EPD's?  What other means do you have for coparing animals of different breeds or compositions?

Again, as I stated, the Composite Beef Cattle Registry is not based on a single breed or Composite makeup.  With our Registry we CAN keep track of any Composite line or breed genetic makeup.

Why should anyone need to write the Beefbooster people to see what breeds they are using and crossing.  The breed composition and percentage of each breed should be visible.


What are composite cattle?  taken from our website is the following statement.  Composite cattle are a range of new breeds or new lines of cattle bred specifically to improve hybrid vigor

Composite can produce consistency and uniformity and still retain hybrid vigor in future generations.

 

[Mark H]

From your post I can infer that you are selling a subscription based herd management program.  You mentioned being able to track animal  health for example as well.  How does your program interface with other farm management programs in current use?  As a module? Plug-in?  Did you try and sell this to any breed associations before you came up with this marketing vehicle?
Where did you get the software and database to develop your EPD conversion tables?  Did you write your own code?
Do you know the inherit limitations of BLUP based statistical models when used for calculating EPDs?
By the way MARC research is public domain and BIF can get the information by looking it up on the MARC website.  The other paper you mention  is from Ontario Canada and is from a progeny testing program called BIO.  BIO is limited to cattle in Ontario so data again is limited;  it is good model but it would take funding to expand it to make it useful for a North American wide audience.
Again what are the  names and CVs of those behind this software marketing effort? 
It has merit but be warned: An attempt was made to merge the EPD and database functions for all beef breeds in Canada.  This effort crashed and burned do to rivalries between breeds and the fact the bigger breeds did not want to subsidize smaller breeds that couldn't afford their own performance programs.  In short the big breeds did not want to fund their own competition.

 

[cowman]

****  "using scientific calculations for the hybrid vigor we can compare animals equally"    ****

LMAO, I almost spit beer on my computer! Let me know how that works out for you.

I'd love to run the accuracies of those formulas. You know what, send them to me and I'll run them and tell you how they come out.

 

[cbcr]

****   "using scientific calculations for the hybrid vigor we can compare animals equally"    ****

LMAO, I almost spit beer on my computer! Let me know how that works out for you.

I'd love to run the accuracies of those formulas. You know what, send them to me and I'll run them and tell you how they come out.

I wish I had known about you 10 years ago, you must already have the formulas and do your own EPD's.

I hope you didn't mess you your computer too much with your beer.  It seems you want to laugh and make fun of scientific data and geneticist that have created it and put it to the test.

I am not saying the Composite Beef Cattle Registry is for everyone.  If that was the case there wouldn't be breed association for Angus, Simmental, Gelbvieh, Limousin, Shorthorn, Hereford and the list goes on and on.  If breeders are interested in what we are offering, we are here and ready to serve their needs.

For those of who who want to be non-believers, look around you for a minute, or look in your garage.  If Henry Ford, while he was developing the automobile had listened to everyone that laughed and made fun of him we may very well still be using horse and buggy's.  If Alexander Graham Bell hadn't invented the telephone we would probably be communicating via Pony Express or if Thomas Edison hadn't invented the light bulb where would we be.

 

[cbcr]

From your post I can infer that you are selling a subscription based herd management program.  You mentioned being able to track animal  health for example as well.  How does your program interface with other farm management programs in current use?  As a module? Plug-in?  Did you try and sell this to any breed associations before you came up with this marketing vehicle?

Why do you seem to think that just because our program is capable of a herd management system and is subscription based, we are no different that any of the other registries, we just offer more.  In all of the other Registries don't you pay for memberships?  And as part of your membership entering and accessing record and information, doesn't it have a cost associated with it too?  For one thing in order to use all of these features with any registry, YOU HAVE TO BE A MEMBER OF THAT ASSOCIATION.

Where did you get the software and database to develop your EPD conversion tables?  Did you write your own code?

The model, formulas, etc. used to calculate our EPD's were first developed some 20 years ago and HAVE been used in the genetic evaluation of beef cattle.

It has merit but be warned: An attempt was made to merge the EPD and database functions for all beef breeds in Canada.  This effort crashed and burned do to rivalries between breeds and the fact the bigger breeds did not want to subsidize smaller breeds that couldn't afford their own performance programs.  In short the big breeds did not want to fund their own competition.

Their is always rivalry in any family.  Our data model, calculation, etc are in tact and valid, and all backed by scientific research and models via which to do Across Breed Calculations.

 

[cbcr]

This is from a post that we responded to on another forum.

If Mytty In Focus (for just one example) has EPDs crunched by both the Angus association using one batch of data and EPDs crunched by The Composite Breed Registry using a seperate batch of data reported by participating Angus breeders, composite growers, and commercial cattlemen discrepancies are going to multiply between the two sets of data.

YOU said it, read your comment one more time. Angus has an EPD for Mytty In Focus. So does Gelbvieh, Simmental and Limousin.

His WW EPD with Angus is +54 and with Gelbvieh is +37 and his WW EPD with Simmental is 34.7 and with Limousin his WW EPD is 57( are you confused yet?) The very same bull with 4 Associations and 4 different EPD's. How can you compare.

Well, lets look try using the BIF adjustment tables.
Angus          +54      BIF 0.0        BIF adjusted ABC= +54
Gelbvieh      + 37    BIF +5.7      BIF adjusted ABC= +42.7
Simmental    +34.7  BIF +28.4    BIF adjusted ABC= +63.1
Limousin      +57      BIF +1.4      BIF adjusted ABC= +58.4

This information is from each of the registries and the latest BIF adjustment table. How are you going to be able to have an accurate ABC or even compare them?

LOOK HERE!!!!!!!!!!!! In our database his WW ABC is +44 with a 94% accuracy. This ABC if from use on Angus, Gelbvieh, Simmental, Hereford, Limousin, etc cows. With this ONE number

Let's look ata Simmental Bull (CNS Dream On L186) his WW EPD with Simmental is +33.7 (97% acc) BIF adjustment for this bull we need to add +28.4 for Acress Breed which now gives him a +62.1 with us his WW ABC is +58

So now looking at Weaning Weight with us no formulas just the reported data we can compare

Mytty In Focus              ABC WW is +44
CNS Dream On L186      ABC WW is +58

WOW how easy is this now to compare these two bull to each other? As in previous posts these two ABC WW EPD's can be compared to any (Hereford), (Angus/Hereford), (Angus/Gelbvieh), (Charolais) and the posible breed or breed composition can go and on.

 

[frostback]

What is your vision for the Jr. aspect?  Most Jr's. are members so they can show animals of that breed. Are there going to be classes for Composites? Where you have to have papers from your asso. to show? Or those animals can stay in the Crossbred and you just support the class?

 

[cbcr]

Having been involved in the show ring as both a 4-H and FFA exhibitor this is important to us.  I also know from some past experiences that in order to get a new breed into most shows especially at Regional, State or National level takes time.  At some point when membership is to a level that we can approach the show's board we would like to do so.

However, in the meantime, the Composite Beef Cattle Registry will support our Junior membership and the current classes that are available.

What we would like to do is set up a futurity type of situation for our Junior members.  The way we would like to approach this is that $1 from every registration will be set aside for a futurity fund.  As our youth show their animals and the county, district, regional, state or National shows they can accumulate points.  The point system will be setup so that fewer points are awarded for a first place at a county show as compared to a National show.  At the end of the show season all points will be added up and figure what each point is worth.

From this fund each year we will use 1/2 of the fund plus any interest earned to pay out.  Example:  20,000 registration would mean that $20,000 will be set aside in the fund.  At the end of the year we will divide $10,000 plus any interest the fund has earned.  The following year another 20,000 registration would be another $20,000 in the fund.  at the end of the year again we will divide $10,000 from the current year fund and interest on the money still there from the last year and any interest earned the current year.  We would also like to be able to add to this fund from other supporters and advertisers. Any additional monies from these supporters or advertisers would be 100% distributed for that show season.

We are still working on our point system, but if a Junior member has an animal that is registered with us and they show in a class and place 4th, if their animal is the first animal in that class they will receive the points for a 1st place animal, so if the next animal that is registered with the Composite Beef Cattle Registry places 15th, they would still receive points for a second place animal.

We want to be fair about this, and welcome comments and suggestions.

 

[frostback]

Are you going to break into zones? There are places in the US that have as many shows in a month, that other places have in a year.

 

[cbcr]

This is one reason we need input from the membership, so that this can work fairly.  Those will be details that would need to be worked out, calculated, and thought through.

 

[cbcr]

[size=10pt][size=10pt]!!!!!  SPECIAL !!!!![/size][/size]

The first 10 people to send us an email saying I want to join can do so for FREE

But, here are the requirements.

must register at least 10 animals.

[email protected]

 

[garybob]

Guys, are any "Padlock Red" cattle in your data base, yet?

Simply being inquisitive, not cantankerous,

GB

 

[cbcr]

What is a "Padlock Red"

 

[garybob]

What is a "Padlock Red"

The composite maternal line that the Padlock ranch in Wyoming developed during the 60's and 70's. They were basically 1/3 Hereford, 1/3 Red Angus, and 1/3 Shorthorn. To my knowlege, they have started goofing them up with Leachman Stabilizers and Rangemakers.

GB

 

[cbcr]

What is a "Padlock Red"

The composite maternal line that the Padlock ranch in Wyoming developed during the 60's and 70's. They were basically 1/3 Hereford, 1/3 Red Angus, and 1/3 Shorthorn. To my knowlege, they have started goofing them up with Leachman Stabilizers and Rangemakers.

GB

They are probably not in our database, but I am willing to work with you or if there is a group of you to get information into the database.  We are here to serve!

 

[cbcr]

[size=10pt][size=10pt]!!!!!   SPECIAL !!!!![/size][/size]

The first 10 people to send us an email saying I want to join can do so for FREE

But, here are the requirements.

must register at least 10 animals.

[email protected]

We are half way there.

 

[oldcowpoke]

This is from a post that we responded to on another forum.

If Mytty In Focus (for just one example) has EPDs crunched by both the Angus association using one batch of data and EPDs crunched by The Composite Breed Registry using a seperate batch of data reported by participating Angus breeders, composite growers, and commercial cattlemen discrepancies are going to multiply between the two sets of data.

YOU said it, read your comment one more time. Angus has an EPD for Mytty In Focus. So does Gelbvieh, Simmental and Limousin.

His WW EPD with Angus is +54 and with Gelbvieh is +37 and his WW EPD with Simmental is 34.7 and with Limousin his WW EPD is 57( are you confused yet?) The very same bull with 4 Associations and 4 different EPD's. How can you compare.

Well, lets look try using the BIF adjustment tables.
Angus          +54      BIF 0.0        BIF adjusted ABC= +54
Gelbvieh      + 37     BIF +5.7      BIF adjusted ABC= +42.7
Simmental    +34.7   BIF +28.4    BIF adjusted ABC= +63.1
Limousin       +57      BIF +1.4      BIF adjusted ABC= +58.4

This information is from each of the registries and the latest BIF adjustment table. How are you going to be able to have an accurate ABC or even compare them?

LOOK HERE!!!!!!!!!!!! In our database his WW ABC is +44 with a 94% accuracy. This ABC if from use on Angus, Gelbvieh, Simmental, Hereford, Limousin, etc cows. With this ONE number

Let's look ata Simmental Bull (CNS Dream On L186) his WW EPD with Simmental is +33.7 (97% acc) BIF adjustment for this bull we need to add +28.4 for Acress Breed which now gives him a +62.1 with us his WW ABC is +58

So now looking at Weaning Weight with us no formulas just the reported data we can compare

Mytty In Focus              ABC WW is +44
CNS Dream On L186      ABC WW is +58

WOW how easy is this now to compare these two bull to each other? As in previous posts these two ABC WW EPD's can be compared to any (Hereford), (Angus/Hereford), (Angus/Gelbvieh), (Charolais) and the posible breed or breed composition can go and on.

Do any other breeds compute a multiple breed epd, or is this the only one?

 

[cbcr]

To my knowledge, the ABC model that we are using is the only one that is an Across Breed Evaluation, meaning that with ALL breeds or combinations of breeds in the database.

With our model adjustments are made for the breed and hybrid vigor before the evaluation is ran.  If we look at cow size of the last few years what has happened?  Angus has increase cow size while many of the Continentals and other breeds have reduced their cow size.

I think that other breed associations EPD's are calculated only on animals within their registry.

 

[oldcowpoke]

To my knowledge, the ABC model that we are using is the only one that is an Across Breed Evaluation, meaning that with ALL breeds or combinations of breeds in the database.

With our model adjustments are made for the breed and hybrid vigor before the evaluation is ran.  If we look at cow size of the last few years what has happened?  Angus has increase cow size while many of the Continentals and other breeds have reduced their cow size.

I think that other breed associations EPD's are calculated only on animals within their registry.

Is there a scientific source for your model or who is the scientist that developed it?