Nodak King's Tradition

[librarian]

I'm trying to learn about this fellow. How would he fit in with the old school dual quest?

 

[oakview]

Horned, 100% dual purpose, originated in North Dakota, purchased by Hilltop Ranch, Veblen, South Dakota, Carvin and Gerald Guy, along with some cows.  He was commonly known as Lancer and was one of the more noteworthy dual purpose bulls in the beef arena of the time.  Hilltop Lancer 457 and Hilltop Lancer 472 were two of his top sons.  457 was National Champion in 1975 and 472 may have been the following year as a 2 year old.  He also sired a National Champion female or two.  Bob MIller, Millvale Farms, used 457 back then and they even showed a daughter or two of his at Louisville a few years ago.  They were a little tall for today, but were correct and stylish.  Bob's son in law,Gene Francis, and Roberta do most of the cattle ranching now, but Bob's still alive and kicking.  I saw Gene and Roberta at the Minnesota State Sale last Sunday.  The last I knew, they still used 457 once in a while.  I'm sure there's semen around on the old "Lancer" bull somewhere.  A friend of mine has some on a son of 457, Nelco McCloud, who was one of my favorite Lancer bred bulls.  He's straight dual bull and polled.  He was raised by Floyd Frederickson, one of the Bar 4 Lancer partners, and the dam came from the Rorvig herd of dual purpose cattle, I believe.  Lots of other history if you're interested.

 

[librarian]

Thank you. I am always interested in history, wherever it takes us.
Actually, I am looking at this cow, WAUKARU PRIMA DONNA x3830059 and what she brings to the table.

I'd like to hear more about Nodak, Bar 4 and the Rorvig herd also. This is really interesting.

 

[r.n.reed]

In 1984 I got a ride from a trucker friend of mine to Union Station in Chicago, left the station with 80.00 in my pocket and rode the train into Dodge City Kansas.I rented a car there although I had to call home to get a credit card#from an Aunt I believe and drove to Plains Kansas. There I made the deal with Dean Fieser to buy posession of Nelco Mcleod the bull Oakview referenced.I then drove to Norwich Kansas to see the bull at his brothers place. I got a motel room that night and headed back to Dodge City the next morning thinking I could take my time and enjoy the trip and maybe check Dodge City out as my train didn't leave till midnight.Well I made it to a little one horse town called Stafford Kansas when my rental car flat out died.I got a hold of Budget and they sent somebody up from somewhere in Oklahoma and for the next 4 1/2 hrs my sole entertainment was watching some farmer plow about a 3 acre patch with a Super M and a 3 bottom plow.When the guy finally arrived I told him I needed to catch my train and his boss told him he had to get me there so off we went into the dark Kansas night.
I didn't remember any hills on my trip out but this guy found some and I felt like we left the ground more than once,truck,trailer,and dead car.I looked over at the speedometer several times and we were never below 80mph and 90 was more common.
A few years ago I thought about re introducing Mcleod into the herd again but as my pedigrees have intensified he has come back on his own. 

 

[RyanChandler]

I suuuuuure would like to see some pictures of these bulls

 

[oakview]

Nice to know you've (R.N.) met Dean Fieser.  One of my best friends, and one of the good guys, in the Shorthorn breed.  Too bad he lives so far away.  I think we've each made two or three trips to see each other.  It's a haul.  Dean has used several of my bulls over the years and we normally meet somewhere along the Kansas Turnpike.  Still a long drive.  My wife says I'm the only person she knows that drives 350 miles just for the privilege of letting someone borrow a bull.  My response, other than the fact that Dean is a good friend, is that at least I don't have to feed him for a while.  It's a fact that the bulls leave my place in good shape, but come home even better.  If any of you ever have a chance to go to southwest Kansas, about 40-50 miles southwest of Dodge City, you need to take a look at Dean's herd.  As good as any.

Back to Prima Donna:  She's an interesting combination of old time beef breeding, Irish, and dual purpose genetics through Ridgeview, Lancer, and Farview Robin.  Lazy D Irish Jack goes back to my all time favorite Ransom bull, Sutherland Ransom 179.  Waukaru still uses him from time to time.  JSF Lightfoot's High Five was raised by a good friend of mine from Leon, Iowa, Jim Scott.  He was a show bull of note.  The Dividend 196 bull was one of the top Dividend sons of the day.  Farview Robin was either the dam or granddam of one of my favorite show heifers, GR Robin R180 (sired by Columbus).  Have you seen photos of these cattle?  Pictures of almost all of them aren't too hard to find.

By the way, I came across a copy of the "150th Anniversary of Coates's Herd Book", published in the early 70's i believe.  Many advertisements from Scotch Shorthorn, Dairy Shorthorn, and Irish Shorthorn breeders.  There's a 3 page story about how the Irish Shorthorns got incorporated into the Herd Book.  According to the book, the cattle were inspected prior to acceptance.  "In the first year, 13,000 cows were seen by Department of Agriculture Officials and Breed Judges, and about 350 were selected as suitable for the Herd Book and the grant of 25 pounds...."  There's a picture of Deerpark Leader 4th who had just sold for 1,700 gns.  T H Sneethen imported some offspring of his and they eventually ended up at Moore's in Illinois.  I talked to Ron the other day and he thought they still had semen on Sangamon Leader 4th, a full Irish son of Deerpark Leader 4th, but he didn't think any semen from the old bull was ever imported.  Ron thought he remembered that a large bank of Leader 4th semen was collected and then he was sent to market.  Space was at a premium, so semen was gathered and often times the bulls were sent packing, so to speak.  It is interesting to see many breeders in the book were using M.R.I.s, Simmentals, and Maine Anjou in their herds at that time. 

 

[librarian]

Sutherland Ransom 179. Please explain a bull like this to me in terms of what the phenotype passes on to cows. In the thread I grabbed this from, Okotoks also liked this bull.

I'd like to see Nelco McLeod.
r.n. sure gets around.

 

[r.n.reed]

I saw Lancer 457 at the International when he was champion bull.He impressed me with his soundness,length of body and he appeared to have a much higher degree of natural muscling than the norm at that time.As impressed with 457 as I was,I wanted Mcleod for the Rorvig influence which pedigree wise was similar to the breeding of my herd at that time.I have attached  pictures of 3 daughters, a Polly,Princess and Helianthus 5a.I will talk more about her in another post.

 

[librarian]

I swear my heart stopped when I saw those pictures.

 

[kiblercattle]

Big thick cows they look good top one could use a new udder though.

 

[r.n.reed]

I agree on that udder Kibler.I should point out that these were heavy milking cows and that they were 12 and 13 years old when these pictures were taken.The bottom cow Helianthus 5a weaned her last calf after she was 14.I only recorded her last 9 calves but she kicked one out every spring like clockwork.The biggest mistake I ever made in my whole 42 year career was letting her son by Port o Call leave this place.I did breed him to two heifers and one of the resulting calves became the dam of 4508.I only have one fair picture of him as a yearling which is the first picture below.The second picture is an 11 month old calf I am developing that goes back to that 5a x POC three times.The third picture is an 18 month son of 4508 that goes back to Mcleod 5 times and exhibits a lot of the characteristics of the Mcleod offspring I raised.He also happens to be a full brother to the c20 bull that sired some of the top performing and high selling cattle in this years Loving sale.

 

[librarian]

r.n. and oakview
I am coming up with nothing trying to study Rorvig. There does not seem to be a prefix?
So I am looking at the bottom side of McLeod. Is STELLA his dam part of a huger Stella family, or are there a direct line of Stella's that might be part of the Stella V I am chasing?
And that Princess Cow. I find several in the progeny, is she an early Princess ( I read somewhere you had changed the name from Hopeless -reminded me of Bedraggled Maid the Angus)
And The 5th Dimension...that sounds interesting.
You know, I thought I almost had my bearings on this Shorthorn stuff, and now there is another continent before me. Full of highways and back roads and villages and hamlets and railways and lakes and endless prairies full of cattle to learn about. Thanks a lot.

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

(thumbsup)

 

[cflem]

I live about 70 miles from Dean Fieser and have known him for almost 40 years.  Have seen lots of good cattle there over the years.  I remember Nelco McLeod and several of his offspring.  Dean showed a white bull he named Fieser's Jetstream at the same time he was showing Lefty 83rd.  He was out of a Clark daughter.  A very complete bull and got along showing pretty well.  I think the original Teri Star cow at Jack Bedwell's was also a McLeod daughter.  Jack had several of the McLeods he bought in groups of heifers from Dean. 
I had the opportunity to haul Dean's cattle and show from the late 80's thru the 90's.  He always sent good cattle that were very competitive on any level.  He was one of the few guys that could use a bull and keep him in show condition.  It was always fun to have one of his big 2 yr.olds in the string.  It's always a treat to go by Dean's and look at cattle and see his good Border Collies work.

 

[r.n.reed]

I have neglected to say it but I have a great deal of respect for Dean Fieser.There were many things that impressed me at our short meeting and they have only been reinforced with the interactions I have had with him since.
Librarian,One of the most frustrating things for me has been the lack of continuity in the family line names.Clarence Forgey was probably one of the worst in that regard.If you want to really get confused on the whole deal,realize that the Polly's are actually Princesses.He did it for marketing purposes saying that buyers wanted something different.
The 5th Dimension and a heifer named Sweetheart of the Rodeo were out of a couple of old horned cows I bought which is another long story.Their names were taken from the titles of a couple of Byrds albums.The Byrds were long gone by the time I was getting into their music but they were innovators and left behind a huge family tree that can still be heard in some of the music to this day.Kind of what a purebred breeder hopes for when he starts his program.

 

[RyanChandler]

that's greatness--  I can see it now,, you out there checkin cows singing eight miles high just 'vibrating w/ the universe' haha

 

[oakview]

Without doing some research, I can't remember much about the Rorvig cattle other than Floyd Frederickson did quite well with some of their cows.  They seemed to go back to the Sandy Ridge herd.  I remember Grahams had a cow called Sandy Ridge Donna that sold in their sale.  If I remember right, she had a red son named Panama Red they showed for a while.  I cannot find him on the ASA website, though.  It seems as though her daughter, Panam Helen K, sold as a calf in Graham's dispersal and had eye damage from pinkeye and didn't sell too high accordingly.  Maybe JIT or someone else who was at that sale about 40 years ago can remember for sure.  Another friend, David Castle, flushed Donna to Thornwood Major (another Graham bull used by Bramans in Michigan for some time and later sold to Lazy D) and got mostly bull calves.  One of these bulls ended up at Aldens.  Another son, TCC Ridgerunner, was promoted by Duane Sicht of Missouri and sired some pretty good cattle for the day.

 

[librarian]

What would be useful would be a way to look at pedigrees that was arranged like a cladogram.
http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/clad/clad5.html

We try to make matings that will reinforce shared derived characteristics, or result in innovations. But how do we map that?

With some kind of chart that showed relationship by shared derived characteristics, we could sort ancestry more efficiently for specific characteristics.

More importantly, individuals (fruit) from a clade (branch) of animals from one family tree could be crossed with individuals from a similar clade of animals derived from a branch of a different tree to select for the trait BETWEEN families rather than WITHIN families.
Like heirloom varieties of apples.
Varieties like Black Annette, Blushed Calville, Bunker Hill, Crow Egg, Fishkill.
https://archive.org/details/applesofnewyork02beac

We have diversity but don't seem to have many varieties that breed true anymore. But that doesn't mean that we couldn't have them again. But I guess if there was a chart that made it easy people would just look at the chart instead of the cattle and mess it up again.

If there are any more pictures, I think my heart can stand a few more.

 

[librarian]

Now this is completely unrelated, and I don't want to derail this very educational thread,
but all this talk of the Byrds brought to mind this picture that I always enjoy.
Just look at those guys, are they wearing bell bottoms?

 

[r.n.reed]

I think those are the Flying Burrito Brothers ;D