Nodak King's Tradition

[oakview]

Isn't that the Super Flag son (the bull, not the people)?  Maybe I can find a photo of me in my bell bottoms and Nehru jacket.  We even took some of our bell bottom jeans and mom added a row of flowery material to the bottom.  That was stylin'!

Your theory about lining up the families, etc., would be nice if cattle, or anything, really bred true.  They don't  (I know some more than others, but never 100%)  I don't care who picks the "most consistent bull" or "best breeding cow" I've ever had.  Every calf is different.  That's not really all bad.  Our "improvement" comes from the outliers.  So many variables, environment for one, what's clockwork at one place becomes a train wreck somewhere else.  It takes years to develop and maintain a uniform herd.  You do your research, find something you think is going to work, sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't.  That's the fun of it, though.  I had a prominent breeder tell me once that if you get a great calf from a certain mating, never try it again.  You'll only be disappointed.  I am always amused at the number of footnotes stating such and such an animal is a full sibling to.....I also enjoy seeing the widespread EPDs of full siblings.  It's just fun to try to match things up the way you want it.  Thank goodness I've never made a mistake.   

 

[r.n.reed]

My breeding philosophy is probably the polar opposite of Oakviews.I believe that improvement comes from getting rid of the outliers.I have been in this business long enough to know that there are always those surprises that come along but two full brothers from a heinz 57 pedigee built on outliers can be fully expected to have diverse results while two full brothers from a tight pedigree and focused breeding program should achieve comparable results in their offspring.I have used outliers  and after the first one most of the rest were used to fix the problems the last one brought in.My 42 years are about 25 years breeding cattle and the rest learning hard lessons.
There is nothing foolproof in this business and I agree not every type works in every type of operation but it would be interesting to see some kind of chart showing where all that semen on that 17 year old ABS Angus bull goes year after year.States,countries,climates,management styles, cow herd size etc.

 

[oakview]

I think the breeding philosophy is probably similar, just our definition or interpretation of "outlier" is different.  In a group of 20 calves similarly bred calves, there is probably a bell shaped curve regarding any particular trait.  To make it simpler, let's say you were putting selection pressure on only one trait, in this instance, performance.  Imagine the calves adjusted weaning weights ranged from 550 to 625 pounds.  Most would fall in the middle, but if you were interested in solely improving performance, you would have maybe 3 well below average and 3 well above average.  To improve performance, you would retain those above the average, the "above outliers," and elimiate those below the average, the "below outliers."  Of course that assumes all other thngs being equal, which is usually not the case.  That's how I intended to use the term outliers.  There are those, though, that like to use the extreme outliers.  I remember many Shorthorn World ads in the type change days that stated that progress is made through the use of extremes.  Hopefully, established herds are uniform enough, genetically and phenotypically, that the great improver added to the herd doesn't need to be The Byrds compared to Frank Sinatra. 

 

[r.n.reed]

I thought we should of clarified our definition of outlier right after I posted.Thanks for doing that and we are closer than our posts might have reflected.

 

[oakview]

No problem.  I just didn't want any more people than necessary to think I was an idiot! 

There were days, though, like back in the early 70's, when our outliers were really outliers.  Like Lancer compared to Bapton Constructor.  Even Leader 21 was considered a real extreme at some point.  I guess as I've gotten older my changes are more subtle.   

 

[librarian]

This concept of outliers and averages is one that is against our predatory natures to want to accept. We are hard wired to notice extremes and we perceive small as weak and large as strong.

Larry Leonhardt talks about selecting for the average and I have taken his observations to heart. Or rather, he writes about breeding for the average genotype as an intentional act.

It's hard to walk through a herd and look for average individuals. Our monkey minds ignore them. But in a line bred herd it shouldn't really matter if we choose an outlier or not ( even subtle outliers). All will revert to the herd average  unless there is some kind of genetic drift. 

Am I mistaken to think that there were once many herds with homogeneous genotypic identities and today this is the rare exception to serial AI with unrelated bulls turning the bottom of the genetic lake over every 2 years?

 

[oakview]

When I was just getting started in Shorthorns. two of the most noteworthy, and uniform, herds of Shorthorns were Louada and Scotsdale.  Both were linebred, Louada to Bapton Constructor and Scotsdale to Calrossie Prefect.  (both of these bulls were also related several generations back)  I remember a double page ad Louada had in the Shorthorn World with the banner headline "How fast can a great bloodline fade away?" or something very similar.  It had about a 10 generation pedigree of Bapton Constructor clear back to Lawton President Roosevelt.  At the bottom of the spread was the answer:  "As fast as you let it."  Scotsdale also greatly promoted their line of breeding.  I remember Billy Anderson of Iowa, who followed the Louada linebreeding program, bought a bull from Scotsdale, Scotsdale Arrogant I believe was his name.  I was pretty excited to see what those lines produced together.  I saved some money from my 4-H steers and bought a linebred Bapton Constructor based female from Billy that was bred to Arrogant.  I was going to get in on the ground floor.  We even took her back to Billy's for rebreeding.  What an investment that was!  Good to learn your lessons young, I guess.  Back then, there was a class at major shows for 10 head from one exhibitor.  Can you imagine that today?  The winners of that class were like absolute peas in a pod.  The photos I saw of cow herds of that day were also extremely uniform and I assumed they produced as similarly as they looked.  Would Haumonts be one of the few remaining Shorthorn herds with such a tight genetic base?  I don't suppose there are a lot of them, but if you look at the major show herds, they are pretty tightly wound around Trump.  Trump daughters bred to Bloodstone bred to Sonny bred back to Swagger maybe?  On another note, perhaps genetic turnover every so often is okay.  There is something to be said about the mini-hybrid vigor from outcrosses.  Now that the sale is over, maybe JIT will chime in on this one.  I'm going from mostly local observations, reading, studying, and memory.  JIT I know personally saw a lot of these cattle in his travels.  By the way, congrats on a great sale. 

 

[MDitmars]

You know it is sad to say the line-bred herds are going to the wayside. Seems like every one is breeding to what is "popular." When very well they may have produced a bull just as good in their own pasture that would have put consistency back into their herd.

Now i am not knocking these "big name" bulls and it is healthy to out-cross a line bred herd every once in a while. Which would enrich the current genetics in the herd, but when you do it every generation it hurts your herd.

The truth is If you were to go out and buy a cow from a random herd in the US that looked perfect and put it on an unrelated bull chances are you don't know what you are going to get. You take a Haumont cow and put it on almost any bull in the US and you will most likely see more of that cow then the bull.

Although after talking to Dennis Hoffrogge it sounds like he thought Haumont cattle bred to those old native beef bulls show signs of hybrid vigor due to being so strongly line-bred.

 

[librarian]

I try to study what breeders are doing who have herds with deep genetics and how they accomplish line breeding.
It seems that an outcross bull is primarily filtered into the herd through a son and then through half sib matings.
I was thinking it would be logical that the son of the best cow in the herd would naturally rise to this position of new herd sire. But the herd has it's own ideas about which cow is best, and this fitness hierarchy is pretty much law.
We picture bull elk battling for females and the most powerful one being so impressive to the females that he gets all the breeding rights and the defeated bull just slinks off.
But it occurs to me that they are not fighting for all the females, just the dominant ones.
The defeated bull still breeds, just not the most fit females. This is just hypothesis.

From observation in your herds, do the dominant cows breed first?

 

[Duncraggan]

This is turning into one of the best threads in a while, thanks Oakview, r.n.reed and librarian!

Had a similar experience when my mentor/consultant selected my top six bull calves two weeks ago and four were from my herd sire, home bred, one was an AI calf, and the other a crossbred calf! I use my walking sires as pick-ups only and have sold the bull in question for slaughter already as he was used and the auctioneer was not happy to put him on my sale.

I am starting to wonder whether AI should be used as much as it is in my herd, maybe just sample a bull on a few of the top cows and use the best son, as suggested in a previous posting on this thread.

 

[librarian]

I think this bull is an interesting example of the line bred cow power of his dam.
Or am I seeing it all wrong?

x3499203 SEVEN T'S KING AMBROSE
A son of Clipper King of USA out of a Haumont cow

7 T's seems to have had a lot of Haumont cows they bred this way.
It looks like this bull went to Jordan acres (JA) in Sibley, Illinois

 

[librarian]

To complete my thought about Ambrose and Linebred maternal genetics being overwhelming
Haumont type
Clipper type

 

[MDitmars]

Absolutely librarian! Another strong example is clippers jubilee. Although I will say I think clipper king of USA works extremely well with Haumont. Proper genetic testing and linebreeding him would be interesting.

Her is an article from March 1973 issue of shorthorn world. I don't know if th picture allows for proper zooming.

I fully believe that an article like this should be published every once in a while.

 

[oakview]

I don't know as if I'd include Clipper King of USA in a linebreeding program.  He's THC, possible explanations as to how this happened were offered in a previous thread.

 

[r.n.reed]

Librarian, earlier on you asked about the bottom side of Mcleods pedigree and Oakview was correct in saying there was a  lot of Sandy Ridge breeding in that pedigree.The Sandy Ridge cattle behind Mcleods pedigree had a lot of Haumont and Indiana polled dual breeding which was basically my foundation as well.Harry Clampitt told me that the Sandy Ridge herd at the  time he classified it was the most beautiful and uniform herd of cattle he had ever seen.He also told me that Mr Stuhr was very upset with him because Harry wouldn't classify any of his cows excellent.Harry told me that he couldn't make a herd of beef cows excellent in a Dairy program.
You also asked about the Princess cow I pictured on the first page and where she fit in generation wise.She was the 5th generation removed from the original foundation cow of that family.The bull calf I have pictured here represents the 11th generation of the princess family.He was a year old last week.

 

[RyanChandler]

Is that 1B? 

 

[r.n.reed]

Yes that is 1b

 

[librarian]

Just wandering off track, looking back through the Defender.
He goes to Whitehall Sultan, who is Bapton Breeding!
But you probably know this.
Anyway, a picture of Whitehall Sultan and one of The Confessor
Whitehall Sultan x The Confessor = Ceremonious Sultan

And one of a bull names Silver Secret who was owned, it looks like, by the same owner of The Confessor. I just always liked Silver Secret, whoever he is. He is not in ASA.

And another picture I found of The Defender and MM Defender. They seem really calm.

 

[Okotoks]

Here is a photo of Winalot Mona Lisa at 9 years of age. It is not a great photo of her but does show her easy keeping and good udder. She is a grand daughter of Hilltop Lancer 457 and was the foundation female of our Maid family. We kept her in the herd until she was 16. The second photo is of her Diamond Captain Mark 27C daughter.

NODAK KING'S TRADITION -[MS]348533-D
                HILLTOP LANCER 457 -M450087-D
                  SCARLET'S STAR -[US]3571452-D
MILLVALE JUBILATION 1751 X-M454154-D
MEADOWVUE REDWING ROBIN -[MS]322823-D
LILYDALE LADY LUCINDA 9 -[US]3660481-D
LILYDALE LADY BETSY 3D -[MS]308781-D
WINALOT MONA LISA
FOUR POINT MAJOR X-M418530-
SCOTSMORR BIG RED 34H X-M447204-
FOUR POINT DOROTHY X-F593353-
WINALOT MONA MAID X-F637850-
              LACOMBE DOCK 9148D -M440470-
              BARSCONA MAID 27G X-F619847-
                                IFORD MAID X-F594519-D

 

[librarian]

This is what I think of as cow power. When you can recognize a resemblance even if you don't know they are related.
I was doing an image search for Millvale, trying to make sense of Okotoks pedigree.
In the middle of a million pictures is this red and white cow that calls the Mona Lisa cow to mind.
So, I hit the image for information on who she is.
Diamond Unica Maid, daughter of the roan he posted out of 27c.

Still didn't learn much about Millvue except that they had this nice (I think) bull calf for sale on rural ads last year.