Shorthorn Discussion

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RedBulls

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A friend of mine who was recently reported to be sipping "cactus juice" on a beach somewhere south of the U.S. border, visited our website recently and noticed this opinion piece I wrote. He thought it might be an interesting topic for discussion on Steer Planet.
LET ME BE CLEAR- I'm not trying to dictate what others do with their breeding programs. What I would like to do is put forth some ideas as to why (in my opinion) we as a breed, have become highly irrelevant to the Beef Industry as a whole. This, despite the fact that I know first hand that Shorthorns are being used with great success in many commercial programs in the U.S. and Canada. Sadly, Shorthorns are rarely credited with the success stories. Several Shorthorn breeders across North America are working diligently to produce the kind of Shorthorns that are slowly gaining Industry respectability in pasture and feedlot. Sadly, too often the phenotype that does best in the show ring does not excel in the pasture.
I feel strongly that to become "relevant", we must "fix" (stabilize) the positive traits, rather than need to "fix" (repair) the undesirable consequences of poor mating choices.

The following is what I wrote for our website:

I have long pondered the question of why this historic race of cattle that I choose to breed has been largely relegated to the “back burner” of commercial relevance for the Beef Industry.  History proves that this has not always been so.  Over 40 breeds of cattle can trace their ancestral roots to the Shorthorn.  Yes, this even includes the “Major Breed”.  To most, the obvious factor is color.  Livestock marketers like uniformity of groups of cattle.  Having them all one color, makes it more difficult to “see” and pick out individual animals within a group.  A majority of breeds have overcome this obstacle by merely crossing their cattle with homozygous black cattle, keeping the black offspring, and breeding up to a purebred status.  Although there are proponents of this to be found within our breed, I for one hope that it never happens.

So, how do we as a breed overcome the “color bias” of today’s markets?  It is my strong opinion that first and foremost, we must breed for traits that are economically friendly to the commercially oriented majority of cattle producers.  Until we do this, we are of little to no value to the cattle industry.  We need to keep in mind that we will have one shot at these producers who make their living from cattle.  If their first experience with Shorthorn cattle is not a favorable one, they will not be back.  The entire breed suffers as a result.  This evidence is so obvious, that it should not even need voicing!

A case in point: I recently spoke with a gentleman who has gained some respectability over the past several years within the Angus world.  This individual invested a significant amount of money over the past few years in putting together a herd of Shorthorns to complement his Angus herd.  This man and his checkbook travelled across the country seeking out and purchasing the “best”.

In this man’s own words, “these cattle did not work”.  Among his utterly dissatisfied comments were, “enormous birth weights, low milk production, poor udders, and indifferent maternal instincts”.  He also remarked that, “a lot of these cattle could not maintain satisfactory body condition on a hay diet during the winter months!”  I felt like I was being kicked in the belly with his every discouraging word as I know first hand, that it does not have to be this way.  But sadly, among Commercial Cattle People, this is what our breed has too commonly become known for.  The Shorthorn cattle that this man put together have recently been dispersed.  He will not be back.  His industry associates are also highly unlikely to ever give Shorthorn genetics a look.

Due to the mindset of some of the most esteemed breeders within our breed association, the remedy for this unfortunate situation may well be unachievable.  However, if we are serious about becoming viable and valuable members of the “real world” cattle community, we would be wise to change our direction.  After all, a commonly heard definition for insanity is “doing the exact same thing over and over while expecting a different result each time”.  I believe that history will show that the present time we are in, holds one of the greatest opportunities for Shorthorn cattle which can only be capitalised on if we are astute enough to realize it now and change our current emphasis.

How many times do we have Livestock Judges that place value solely on the basis of “looks”?  Do they ever ask if the animal was born unassisted?  Or, was the natural dam able to raise the calf to weaning on her own?  Did the dam breed back?  Did the dam have a structurally sound udder?  Was the weaning weight satisfactory off the dam?  Did the dam demonstrate strong maternal instinct?  Few of these questions (if any), are ever asked.  Functionality and attractiveness do not need to be antagonistic.

Doesn’t it behoove us to choose judges that will ask these economically critical questions?  It does if we are ever going to tap the potentially lucrative commercial market that exists.  Unless we satisfactorily address some of these issues that are so relevant to the Cattle Industry as a whole, we can expect to continue our downhill slide into oblivion as a breed.

Ralph S. Larson

Y Lazy Y Shorthorns




 

aj

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The preference for the black hide deal killed the Herfords and Shorthorns. I think the breed ended up morphing into the show ring deal because of this. We try and ignore the black hide but it is the killer factor. Look at how the simmentals have chased the black hided deal. There are also some very good Angus cattle out there......period. They have a heckashish epd data base. I live in Kansas USA.....Canada and other countries may be different.
 

Duncraggan

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I am not in N. America but subscribe to Shorthorn Country. Approximately 4 years.

I believe that Monty Soules might be the best thing for the ASA ever. I don't know the man but his SC editorials infer that he is for the performance aspect of the breed. Judging by the advertising in the SC, he may tread on some toes!

When I look at the sale reviews in the SC, commercially orientated breeders play second fiddle as far as prices go for animals. Unfortunately advertising is expensive and the 'show' genetics breeders are therefore at a huge advantage as they are able to 'out-advertise' the commercially acceptable breeders.

I don't know if you are a 'one breeder one vote' association or a 'one breeding age female one vote per breeder' organization but you need to try and get better representation now, while the performance push is on. Unfortunately 'Cactus Juice Coyote' will be too far north after his holiday to help but there seem to be people like you, r.n.reed, Waukaru, Peak View, R Sneed etc. that could help push your agenda.

I am in the process down here of pushing the breed with a website, monthly herd updates and insisting that my main marketing agent put the Shorthorn logo on all his general advertising. Seems to be slow but I have seen a shift in the right direction as had two new buyers at the last bull sale in September 2013.

Good luck!
 

justintime

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First off, I really like your article Ralph. Excellent viewpoint!

I just wish we could all live in a world where value was not just measured by coat color. To me, in this day and age, cattle that can match or out perform other cattle, on any number of production and performance based traits, should be accepted for what they offer the industry, and be valued accordingly. As I have said many times, on here, there are lots and lots of great black cattle but there are also lots of poor black cattle as well. There are lots and lots of cattle of any other color that can compete with many of the best black hided cattle as well. I know I will never see major changes in these areas in my lifetime, but I certainly would like to see some change regardless of how slow it comes. I think we are seeing change starting here in Canada. Being black is just not good enough. We are seeing cattle buyers starting to buy according to the quality of the cattle more than just coat color. Of course some black cattle are still topping the markets, but they are the good black cattle. That is fair and always will be. I don't think we are asking for too much to be wanting color discrimination to stop. We don't want all the market.. we just want our fair share in it.
Not too many years ago, a breeder of black cattle could sell lots and lots of bulls. Today, many black bulls are being passed through sale rings here, in favor of better quality bulls of other colors. The good black bulls are flat good and they will always sell. That is the way it should be.
 

mark tenenbaum

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knabe said:
Retained ownership.///// (clapping) <party> <party> <party> (clapping) O0  The very basic and simple quicker solution-if your cattle will feed-and if you have the $ to sell closer to the consumer BASED upon grade-not color-the proof needs to be on the table as well as in the field.x-breds and otherwise O0
 

trevorgreycattleco

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Somebody that ran a highly successful show outfit only to disperse it is the new savior? Please. Did any shorthorn breeders buy any Herefords in that dispersal? It's still a good ol boys club. How come the ASA can't keep a head honcho? It's a joke. Seriously. Dysfunction at its finest.


The breed needs a new branch. Period. Call it the American Durham Assiciation. Break away from the ASA like the red angus did. Leave the show cattle to the ASA.
 

mark tenenbaum

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trevorgreycattleco said:
Somebody that ran a highly successful show outfit only to disperse it is the new savior? Please. Did any shorthorn breeders buy any Herefords in that dispersal? It's still a good ol boys club. How come the ASA can't keep a head honcho? It's a joke. Seriously. Dysfunction at its finest.


The breed needs a new branch. Period. Call it the American Durham Assiciation. Break away from the ASA like the red angus did. Leave the show cattle to the ASA..... GREAT idea-have the commercial and clubby people in aseparate deal-they are alot closer in thier OPPOSITE goals than the show deal is-and the one thing in common is:-CATTLE prove thier worth by crossbreeding O0
 

librarian

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Perhaps a catalog of major available Shorthorn genetics that emphasise commercially viable, structurally sound, reproductively efficient Shorthorn bloodlines would be sufficient to reach out.
Someone passed along a small brochure to me a few years ago put together by "The Breeders Group".  A few Angus breeders who felt that mainstream Angus genetics available were going in a dysfunctional direction put together a set of balanced sires that had bred in a predictably functional manner.  The motto was "principles, not personalities".  There were pictures of the bulls, convenience information and maternal histories. Contact information was provided for acquiring semen on the bulls directly from each breeder.
I thought it was a neat way to provide an alternative.
 

mark tenenbaum

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librarian said:
Perhaps a catalog of major available Shorthorn genetics that emphasise commercially viable, structurally sound, reproductively efficient Shorthorn bloodlines would be sufficient to reach out.
Someone passed along a small brochure to me a few years ago put together by "The Breeders Group".  A few Angus breeders who felt that mainstream Angus genetics available were going in a dysfunctional direction put together a set of balanced sires that had bred in a predictably functional manner.  The motto was "principles, not personalities".  There were pictures of the bulls, convenience information and maternal histories. Contact information was provided for acquiring semen on the bulls directly from each breeder.
I thought it was a neat way to provide an alternative.//// The Association did that in the 90s-and had some good cattle represenred-like K-Kim, Backenhuse, JR Ranch, Waukaru ,Meadowlane, Byland,Kieth Lauer, Loving (as I remember) etc-It just didnt continue after Hunsley left. O0
 

knabe

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retained ownership with pens of cattle that feedlots can see they are losing money by not buying the cattle themselves.

either they work or they don't. 

apparently they still aren't in demand as the word hasn't got out they make as much if not more of a profit than angus based calves.

people like to criticize angus for having no butt, but last time i checked, filet wasn't located there.

most people i know don't go out of their way to purchase butt meat.
 

RedBulls

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knabe said:
retained ownership with pens of cattle that feedlots can see they are losing money by not buying the cattle themselves.

either they work or they don't. 

apparently they still aren't in demand as the word hasn't got out they make as much if not more of a profit than angus based calves.

people like to criticize angus for having no butt, but last time i checked, filet wasn't located there.

most people i know don't go out of their way to purchase butt meat.
You have some valid points, Knabe. Geography is an enemy here, as we don't have a "real" feedyard closer than 300 miles. I have wanted to put some steers in an ASA program like the "Great Shorthorn Feed-out" (or something similar) , but just can't justify the fuel expense to get them the 700+ miles. I have learned to take a more proactive approach when marketing though fairly local Livestock Auctions or local buyers. I have them come and see the cattle at home. These calves often include roan steers and heifers or RWM's. A knowledgeable and reasonably honest buyer knows good cattle when they see them. As Grant says "no matter the color". I make them give me a verbal commitment as to what they will bring if being sold at auction. I have not been disappointed since having a "face to face" and oftentimes have been pleasantly surprised at the outcome. It is important to have a firm belief in your product. Evidently, the buyers' customers have been pleased, as it's much easier now to get top (or near the top) dollar for the feeder calves.

On a related note, I have a bull customer in Central MT that runs 250-300 Purebred Shorthorn (non-registered) mother cows. I want to be clear that I am not his only bull supplier, but he has been a steady annual customer of mine for the past 15 years.

"Tom" retains ownership on his Shorthorn calves to closeout. He also buys 10-12 pot loads of "mainstream" local calves in his area annually. He backgrounds them all at home until late January or early February and then sends them to a custom feedlot in Cozad, NE for finishing. The following are data he shared with me on his Shorthorns. I can't remember if this was 2010 or 2011 data. In either case, the Shorthorns were the only cattle he made money on that year.

Shorthorn Steers and Heifers were fed for 159 days, which was 29 days less than his other owned pens of cattle.
________________________________________
In-705 Out-1,328
________________________________________
ADG- 3.9
________________________________________
Dry Feed Conversion- 6.04
________________________________________
Average Yield- 65.71

________________________________________
Net $/head by owning through closeout- $60

Historically, these cattle have graded 90%  -CH or better. This beef was all boxed for export. No grades were required.


Heifers
In- 613 Out-1,187


DFC- 6.04

ADG- 3.51

Ave. Yield- 66.24

Net$/head by owning through closeout- $48

These cattle did not receive a quality grade as they were boxed for export. Historically, the Shorthorns have graded 90% - Ch or better.

I was dumbstruck when after talking to the ASA about this and furnishing them this data, there was absolutely no interest shown in doing any follow up or verification. It wasn't even feasible to send a Field Rep across the State of NE for a visit with the Feedlot Operator as I suggested (and hoped) they would do. In my mind, collecting and verifying data from 4-5 pens of straight Shorthorn cattle would be significant. No interest. After a couple of days, I got to thinking that maybe the reason they didn't jump on this was because they thought that I was trying to capitalize on some positive advertising. I called them back, and assured them that I was completely willing to remain anonymous as one of the bull suppliers for these cattle. I just wanted to get the word out that Shorthorns can make a significant contribution to the Industry. Still a no-go. I finally got an answer that because there was no way to positively identify individual sires, the data was useless. I would have (and still do) thought that the mere fact that these were straight Shorthorn cattle, would have been significant.

I think Librarians idea is sound. Maybe those of us wanting to contribute positively to the Cattle Industry as a whole need to request a separate sub-grouping within the ASA.



 

knabe

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There isnt enough ai capacity to demand the sires of angus calves in the feedlot.


The sa assn should be embarrased. 


They should have had the minimum intelligence to help id calves the next time or help you do that or something.


One can only conclude a trump card was being played ..


Maybe they are scared the show premium for trump will be nonexistent if shorthorns Somehow gain acceptance in the marketplace. 


They should be pooling calves, keeping the ID and start processing potloads of cattle. How hard could it possibly be to be asa president.  They should send out the tags for free.
 

Doc

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knabe said:
There isnt enough ai capacity to demand the sires of angus calves in the feedlot.


The sa assn should be embarrased. 


They should have had the minimum intelligence to help id calves the next time or help you do that or something.


One can only conclude a trump card was being played ..


Maybe they are scared the show premium for trump will be nonexistent if shorthorns Somehow gain acceptance in the marketplace. 


They should be pooling calves, keeping the ID and start processing potloads of cattle. How hard could it possibly be to be asa president.  They should send out the tags for free.

I know at one time they had ear tags that said "Shorthorn Verified" or something like that. I don't remember what you had to do to get them though.
 

RedBulls

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When re-reading the above posts this morning after getting a couple hours rest, I can see where it may seem that I am just trying to bash the Association. I am not. I will admit to being highly frustrated at times though. For now, anyway-I will continue to write the ever increasing bi-annual checks that keep me enrolled in the Whole Herd Reporting system. Overall, it sure has enabled me to keep accurate individual and herd records than when I'm left strictly to my own devices!

What my hopes are, for this discussion is some exchange of ideas about what we as breeders need to do in order to regain Industry acceptance. I think that I was about 30 when I started to realize that I just wasn't smart enough to have all the answers. Now, (at a little more than double that age) I enjoy learning from the exchange of ideas, but still don't have all the answers.

Maybe a better topic heading would have been "Why I Love Shorthorns"!

We are calving now. I just got in from the early morning check about a couple hours ago. It will sound crazy to some people, but it is one of the most enjoyable things I do. Calm cattle help calm me-and I'm sure this goes both ways! The cattle seldom get out of their beds when I walk through them checking for newborns. More importantly, I very seldom feel "at risk" from any of my cattle. I do carry a "reminder stick" most times, because you can never be 100% sure about a new mother with maternal hormones coursing through her veins. I have only been knocked away from a calf once in all these years, which was certainly not the case with some other breeds I've owned. But, when this cow knocked me on my "keester" , she didn't try to grind me into the mud like other breeds have done. Or, turned on their own calf and killed it when they couldn't get in the back of the pickup to get me. For me, a guy that's about 30 lbs overweight and starting to realize the sunset may not be too many years away, I have developed a great appreciation for docility.

Calving ease in the Shorthorns has been another real plus for me. Since we adjusted our ever-increasing growth/performance goals, to what I feel is a more balanced approach, my top of the line calf puller has been gathering dust in the barn. I do keep a set of OB chains handy for occasions like a couple weeks ago when I decided to help a lazy first calf heifer that is now on our radar.

Udder quality has become very much more important to me in my genetic selections. I just don't have the time or inclination to help a new calf learn that he has to direct his aim much closer to the ground than where nature tells him the teat should be located. Or, to help him attempt to wrap his tongue around a big carrot or turnip, no matter how "good" the cow is in other respects. I am very pleased with the improvements we've achieved in this area.

Carcass (and efficiency getting there). During his long tenure with the ASA, Dr. Hunsley wrote really good articles with detailed data which greatly supported the Shorthorn Breed's ability to perform very well in this area. As a whole, I believe we can bring a lot to the table (pun intended). I think that no matter how large your operation or how small, if we want the breed to succeed, we must take the steps necessary to achieve this. For whatever reason, it seems to me that there has been an historical avoidance by Shorthorn breeders in gathering and submitting data good or bad.

When I talked to the above mentioned feedlot owner, he related to me that; "I didn't even know that there was a Shorthorn breed until three years ago when Tom started bringing his cattle here. I am impressed"! 



 
 

CAB

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  Have just kind of skimmed this, this am. but a couple of quick observations that I have noticed. The SH cattle in Canada are so much "better" than the U.S. SHs when looking at them from a production honest cattleman kind of way. Way more honest rib shape and capacity, better structured, with honest width. I'm sure there are some cattle like that in the US, but we just don't see enough of them. From the sale at the Iowa Beef EXPO, if you are raising horns, they better be solid red bulls B/C if not that color, knife them early it will save you money. Bull sales were sad with many MT seats in the pavilion. Wish that some of the cattle judges that we are constantly having to watch would get some more "real" experience and wake up to the facts of what works out here.
 

sue

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There are alot of positive things happening with ASA right now. Multi genetic Evaluation is just one very big deal happening. Get involved in a committee. Current EXecutive is moving at a fast pace and creating a better business for all that want to get involved. Montie is actually doing something and not just talking about it- I would agree with Duncraggon "best thing" in a long time.
Now is not the time to bash American Shorthorn, unfortunately the folks that have posted are out of the loop and should get involved while we have a leader willing to lead.
 

justintime

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sue said:
There are alot of positive things happening with ASA right now. Multi genetic Evaluation is just one very big deal happening. Get involved in a committee. Current EXecutive is moving at a fast pace and creating a better business for all that want to get involved. Montie is actually doing something and not just talking about it- I would agree with Duncraggon "best thing" in a long time.
Now is not the time to bash American Shorthorn, unfortunately the folks that have posted are out of the loop and should get involved while we have a leader willing to lead.

I agree with Sue on this issue. I see some major changes in attitude and direction right now from the ASA. I am not sure what has happened in this case that Ralph has brought up, as I would think the ASA would be wanting this information very much. I would suggest that he continue to ask the ASA why they don't want this information and/or why they are not looking into it further.
I also agree that the multi genetic evaluation deal if going to be important for the breed, and I do wish more breeders would get on with helping the ASA. I know I was asked to send in some information and I am presently making a list of possible sires they can use to gather their data from.
It may not look like much is happening or changing, but I see positive signs that it is slowly happening and some change is in the air.
I also think that splinter groups have been tried in numerous other countries and in several other breeds. They don't have a very successful track record. There should be no reason everyone can't raise the type of cattle they want to raise within the same organization. Each of us has to quit relying on any breed association to do the heavy lifting when it comes to promotion. I have come to the conclusion that this is just one more job each breeder has to do.
 

BTDT

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It is time the shorthorn breeders look in the mirror and stop using the "black" excuse.

Red angus have PROVED that quality cattle will be accepted with open arms REGARDLESS OF COLOR IF THE BREED PRODUCES COMMERCIALLY ACCEPTABLE CATTLE. 

Lets review the shorthorn breed: HUGE birth weights that are apparently acceptable; an emphasis on HUGE bone and hair; acceptance of TH,PHA and even ENCOURAGING the use of carriers for hair, bone and "hip structure"; good ol'boys club at its finest; when BW EPD's get too high the assoc just "adjust" them lower; lack of commercial leadership from the assoc;

When I have talked to shorthorn breeders, they complain about how shorthorns are discounted due to their color, and yet can offer no reason to argue against it; no feedlot results, carcass results, feed conversion.  Yet they brag about 4 inch hair, having a 140 pound calf born, and how that champion heifer still hasn't had a calf.

Read SEK or Cattle Visions (the two largest suppliers of shorthorn semen) catalogs. No mention of ANYTHING practical and rarely even EPD's listed.

If the shorthorn breed wants to be accepted into the commercial world, they need to look in the mirror and make some very tough decisions.  The "commercial shorties"  need to stand up to the "show shorties" and all their power and money, and either go their separate ways or somehow make the show shorties less prominent.

Good Luck.

 

aj

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In my area Angus are big. They are the right color and there are some awfull good Angus cattle out. Awfull good from a production outlook......not a pretty boy show ring outlook. It is gonna take awfull good cattle to find a notch in the market share. There has been alot of curvebending going on. The Angus cattle have low bwt's and excellent growth rates......carcass ability. I do think the Angus cows are awfull big anymore.
 
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