Shorthorn Discussion

[Okotoks]

Without looking at actual birthweight - a positive CE Epd will mislead you. Ex: x4166333

That's true but a low birth weight can also be misleading without looking at CE and MCE. A light calf could be premature, have poor nutrition, a dam with a compromised blood flow to the uterus or be a light birth weight but still a difficult birth from a small pelvic sized dam. If your cows have a positive calving ease they can also deliver larger calves which should be important in commercial herds when terminal cross sires are used on them. I know of two herds where x4166333 sons and grandsons are being used. The one herd is Charolais where they only look at CE not BW and the other is commercial Simmental where they don't weigh the calves but cull on pelvis size. In both cases they love the bulls from this program!

If Charolais and Simmental cows couldn't push out mammoth sized calves with ease they would have been extinct and they should therefore be able to calve any Shorthorn sired calf as if they had diarrhoea! (lol)

That's all fine but if the british breeds are providing the females to breed to the terminal sires the straight bred british cows or their F1 daughters better be able to deliver the calves from the terminal sires and in both the programs I mentioned the F1 females are when bred back Simmental or Charolais. To me that is why you should focus on CE and MCE as much or more than on BW, because you should be talking more than one generation.

 

[RyanChandler]

I was just putting up the type of information a person with an amateur understanding (like myself) could access with a best guess amateur approach.

XBAR, using EPD's correctly is just another of the many things I am very blurry on.  Not that I even trust them, but I would like to understand the concepts.
I just figure yearling weight tells more about growth. MCE tells if the bull is not terminal, and marbling is a major thing Angus will not want to loose in an outcross.
You rank relevance as: The first thing I look at is birthweight.  The second thing is weaning weight.  The third thing is dam weight.  Then I'm going to look at Milk, CE, then MCE. 

This means, from a cow/calf perspective, one first looks to see how fast they grow? Then how efficient the dam was at raising a calf? Then how expensive the milk was? Then shape of calf?  Then?

Descending order means largest to smallest, I think?

You're cattle sense is light years ahead of most people I encounter- both on here and in person.  Give yourself some credit!

EPD's are something I don't highly subscribe to either. At least not in the Shorthorn breed.

I regularly run across pedigrees where the actuals and the EPDs just don't add up. And not just the actuals for the particular individual, but when analyzing the actuals of every animal in the pedigree relative to the generated EPDs.  Things like a bull w/ a 115lb actual bw having a positive CE, or a bull w/ a sub 1000lb actual yearling weight having a YW EPD in the top 1% of the breed just don't add up.  We all know we've seen bulls, and not just an individual bull but an entire pedigree, where you know they have substantially more/less growth than the EPD suggests. 

Another thing that makes me go hmmm is the fact that the algorithms used to compute EPDs are formulated by database engineers.  Now not to sell the cattlemen short, but just like w/ social media or anything IT for that matter, how many database engineers out there have a good, conceptual understanding of beef cattle production?  How many database engineers have the ability to recognize when generated epds don't necessarily project or coincide w/ generations of actual performance?  If your unable to recognize this, I don't know how any adjustments in the formula could be made going forward as to engineer EPDs to better reflect projected performance. 

I know what descending order means. lol. I just got a chuckle out of it.  Line those bulls up side by side and you'd see what I mean.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

I was just putting up the type of information a person with an amateur understanding (like myself) could access with a best guess amateur approach.

XBAR, using EPD's correctly is just another of the many things I am very blurry on.  Not that I even trust them, but I would like to understand the concepts.
I just figure yearling weight tells more about growth. MCE tells if the bull is not terminal, and marbling is a major thing Angus will not want to loose in an outcross.
You rank relevance as: The first thing I look at is birthweight.  The second thing is weaning weight.  The third thing is dam weight.  Then I'm going to look at Milk, CE, then MCE. 

This means, from a cow/calf perspective, one first looks to see how fast they grow? Then how efficient the dam was at raising a calf? Then how expensive the milk was? Then shape of calf?  Then?

Descending order means largest to smallest, I think?

You're cattle sense is light years ahead of most people I encounter- both on here and in person.  Give yourself some credit!

EPD's are something I don't highly subscribe to either. At least not in the Shorthorn breed.

I regularly run across pedigrees where the actuals and the EPDs just don't add up. And not just the actuals for the particular individual, but when analyzing the actuals of every animal in the pedigree relative to the generated EPDs.  Things like a bull w/ a 115lb actual bw having a positive CE, or a bull w/ a sub 1000lb actual yearling weight having a YW EPD in the top 1% of the breed just don't add up.  We all know we've seen bulls, and not just an individual bull but an entire pedigree, where you know they have substantially more/less growth than the EPD suggests. 

Another thing that makes me go hmmm is the fact that the algorithms used to compute EPDs are formulated by database engineers.  Now not to sell the cattlemen short, but just like w/ social media or anything IT for that matter, how many database engineers out there have a good, conceptual understanding of beef cattle production?  How many database engineers have the ability to recognize when generated epds don't necessarily project or coincide w/ generations of actual performance?  If your unable to recognize this, I don't know how any adjustments in the formula could be made going forward as to engineer EPDs to better reflect projected performance. 

I know what descending order means. lol. I just got a chuckle out of it.  Line those bulls up side by side and you'd see what I mean.

//// That is certainly well put-unfortunately with alot of EPDS-you are dealing with probablities on both ends-because the numbers given from BWs on are not actual O0

 

[knabe]

Another thing that makes me go hmmm is the fact that the algorithms used to compute EPDs are formulated by database engineers.  Now not to sell the cattlemen short, but just like w/ social media or anything IT for that matter, how many database engineers out there have a good, conceptual understanding of beef cattle production?  How many database engineers have the ability to recognize when generated epds don't necessarily project or coincide w/ generations of actual performance?  If your unable to recognize this, I don't know how any adjustments in the formula could be made going forward as to engineer EPDs to better reflect projected performance. 

typically people work on a team to constrain for this.


please cite an actual algorithm and go through the specific portion of the calculation you have a problem with.  you are simply using a strawman argument, something you shouldn't be resorting to with your intelligence and debate skills, unless of course you are talking to people who will vote themselves other people's money, which i guess you can't separate yourself from.

 

[oakview]

A "data base engineer" with no cattle experience would perhaps be less likely to let a personal bias influence the process.  Of course, we all know that no cattleman would intentionally skew data to make their cattle look better than they actual are.

 

[RyanChandler]

Another thing that makes me go hmmm is the fact that the algorithms used to compute EPDs are formulated by database engineers.  Now not to sell the cattlemen short, but just like w/ social media or anything IT for that matter, how many database engineers out there have a good, conceptual understanding of beef cattle production?  How many database engineers have the ability to recognize when generated epds don't necessarily project or coincide w/ generations of actual performance?  If your unable to recognize this, I don't know how any adjustments in the formula could be made going forward as to engineer EPDs to better reflect projected performance. 

typically people work on a team to constrain for this.


please cite an actual algorithm and go through the specific portion of the calculation you have a problem with.  you are simply using a strawman argument, something you shouldn't be resorting to with your intelligence and debate skills, unless of course you are talking to people who will vote themselves other people's money, which i guess you can't separate yourself from.

C'mon man, I'm a swanky redneck from Pottsboro- not a database engineer.  I don't have to be able to cite a 'specific portion of the calculation' to be able to recognize when the output doesn't reflect the actuals being reported. 

A "data base engineer" with no cattle experience would perhaps be less likely to let a personal bias influence the process.  Of course, we all know that no cattleman would intentionally skew data to make their cattle look better than they actual are.

Good point.  At the same time, the generated output would just be interpreted as data to him- he doesn't have the conceptual understanding of what functional characteristics those numbers pertain to in order for it to be interpreted as information.  Remember, information is that which is useful to the recipient.  Everything else is data. 

 

[Barry Farms]

Which bulls would you nominate for a WORKING SHORTHORN sire directory?
If I was a commercial Angus producer looking for a Shorthorn outcross to save heifers from and sell backgrounded steers, I would go to Cattle Visons, for instance, and eliminate any that are not th/pha free, then sort the bulls first by Maternal Calving Ease, then eliminate any with negative CED, then eliminate any that are negative on Marbling and then by Yearling Weight. (maybe not a sound way to go at it, but what I would do)
So if you take the top 20 for MCE, then eliminate anything negative on CED and Marbling, then take the highest yearling weight the line up is like this in descending order for yearling weight.
My question is what would be your selection criteria? 

DRC 101VM th/pha free
RS DV 034  th/pha free
Saskavalley Bonanza 219 M th/pha free
Alta Cedar Signature th/pha free
HC FL TOUCHDOWN 123T th/pha free
Diamond Prophecy 21P th/pha free
Alta Cedar Code Red 62W (no marb epd, unknown carrier status)
A&T RENEGADE 124 th/pha free
Alta Cedar First Blood th/pha free
Roanaoke Flashback  th/pha free
Coalpit Creek Leader 6th  th/pha free

This may have already been said but as I (really my dad) am a commercial cattlemen. We would look it is:
1. BW and CE
2. Horns and Scurrs not allowed
3. WW and YW (Growth) in comparison to Yearling frame.
4. Yearling Frame
5. Color-would not buy a roan or excessively chromed up bull as it is simply not economical unlike my 4H and FFA steer projects where chrome is good

I have a Gelbvieh catalog that has a few of bulls with 80-85 lb bw then 800lb 205 day weight and a 1100-1300lb YW with a 4.5-5.5 yearling frame

 

[JTM]

Great post Red Bulls. I appreciate the way you communicated the challenge the breed has in gaining commercial acceptance. I have experienced first hand the difference in the types of purebred Shorthorn cattle. Also, being in western Ohio which could also be referred to as "Club Calf country" it is very hard to sell commercial type cattle. If they aren't black, the sale barns take off $.25 per lb compared to similar quality black hided calves. I can quote one the largest feed lot operators in my area as saying "Shorthorns are a disaster". I just looked at him and immediately replied that I am hear to show him otherwise. Here in southwestern Ohio we are converting one person at a time to the understanding that Shorthorns are NOT a disaster. At least not all of them... Last year at our county fair was an eye opener for some who seen a purebred steer bred by us get reserve live carcass among 30 other black show steers and the same purebred shorthorn steer won the rate of gain contest.
Here are the areas that Shorthorns have to improve consistency across the breed in my experience:
Fertility
Birthweight
Gestation length
Calving Ease(structure/shape included)
Udder/teat structure
Hoof structure and quality
Masculinity of bull calves

Maybe I will elaborate on these a little later...

 

[knabe]

C'mon man, I'm a swanky redneck from Pottsboro- not a database engineer.  I don't have to be able to cite a 'specific portion of the calculation' to be able to recognize when the output doesn't reflect the actuals being reported. 

then quit talking about what you know nothing about and acting like you do.  it's always someone else's money, someone else's shortcomings, i think you and sir loin are the same person.

 

[JTM]

I have to say this truly is one of the best Shorthorn threads there has been over the last couple of years. To clarify some things I mentioned in my earlier post. There are definitely Shorthorn genetics that are very worthy of commercial acceptance and should be used. There are also Shorthorn genetics that are not worthy and should not be used. I'm thinking the direction of the breeders and the association should take is to make a major shift in focus towards proving the commercial acceptability of Shorthorn genetics. The show side of the breed will take care of itself without need to battle. Yes, there will be differences in opinions. There are so many good ideas on this thread and I hope the association and other committee members are reading this stuff. I know I'm paying close attention to what is being said, especially what is being said by the commercial cattlemen that are not Shorthorn breeders... I'm going to be involved in a Shorthorn committee this year. If anyone has any thoughts on what the two most important issues the Shorthorn breed should focus on to improve breed image please don't hesitate to send me an email or give me a call. I'm nobody special but will have a voice in the committee. Exciting things are happening and lets take advantage of the situation!

 

[RyanChandler]

C'mon man, I'm a swanky redneck from Pottsboro- not a database engineer.  I don't have to be able to cite a 'specific portion of the calculation' to be able to recognize when the output doesn't reflect the actuals being reported. 

then quit talking about what you know nothing about and acting like you do.  it's always someone else's money, someone else's shortcomings, i think you and sir loin are the same person.

You - are - delusional.  Where you get off talking about someone else's money or shortcomings is bizarre.  We were talking about shorthorn cattle here EPDs here.  You don't have to be a level 3 analyst to realize something doesn't add up when a bull w/ a WW EPD of 27 has considerably more growth than a bull with a WW EPD of 45.  EPDs are intended to be used as a comparison tool.  As a potential bull buyer, I should be able to look at 3 different shorthorn registration papers and, based off the EPDs, be able to come to a reasonable conclusion regarding which one has more growth.  Or milk.  Or w/e.  Right now, this is not the case. 

Great post Red Bulls. I appreciate the way you communicated the challenge the breed has in gaining commercial acceptance. I have experienced first hand the difference in the types of purebred Shorthorn cattle. Also, being in western Ohio which could also be referred to as "Club Calf country" it is very hard to sell commercial type cattle. If they aren't black, the sale barns take off $.25 per lb compared to similar quality black hided calves. I can quote one the largest feed lot operators in my area as saying "Shorthorns are a disaster". I just looked at him and immediately replied that I am hear to show him otherwise. Here in southwestern Ohio we are converting one person at a time to the understanding that Shorthorns are NOT a disaster. At least not all of them... Last year at our county fair was an eye opener for some who seen a purebred steer bred by us get reserve live carcass among 30 other black show steers and the same purebred shorthorn steer won the rate of gain contest.
Here are the areas that Shorthorns have to improve consistency across the breed in my experience:
Fertility
Birthweight
Gestation length
Calving Ease(structure/shape included)
Udder/teat structure
Hoof structure and quality
Masculinity of bull calves

Maybe I will elaborate on these a little later...

Good post- the proof is in the pudding.  Shorthorns are gradually getting the attention they deserve.  To add to your list though, I really haven't had the problems you list w/ the big majority of my cows but then again, I don't have any Trump influence in any of my cattle either.  One of the things I'd like to see is more milk.  Many shorthorns milk too much for sure but what's wild to me is to see a week old calf going tit to tit trying to get a belly full. If they can't milk enough for a new calf, lord they've got no chance supporting a 400lber.  Before calving, I wanna see a strutted udder, some forward volume.  I've bought (and sold) shorthorns that, from the profile, you couldn't even tell had a bag right before calving.  These type of cattle need to be weeded out from the gene pool. It is very difficult to promote the shorthorn name as a comparable (to angus / Hereford) when you have 2 very different products, one of which is not comparable at all. 

Another thing I think we as shorthorn breeders need to work on is rear leg structure.  To me, this is an issue across the board in the breed: cow hocked, post legged and both.  I've talked to one of the premier shorthorn breeders and I pointed out that a good bit of the cattle I was looking at were cow hocked- his reply was, "So?"  as if that was no concern.  Now he may be right, in terms of the impact it has on their ability to be a functional cow, but people notice it- it's an eye sore - and it definitely impacts our ability to produce marketable cattle.  From an advertising standpoint, I don't know how we differentiate our product as to not be confused w/ the dysfunctional side of the breed.  There has to be a distinction made at some point?

 

[JTM]

What exactly do you mean by "cow hocked"? Around here people say "cycle hocked". Do you think this is the same thing?

 

[RyanChandler]

What exactly do you mean by "cow hocked"? Around here people say "cycle hocked". Do you think this is the same thing?

No, not the same thing. 

 

[knabe]

C'mon man, I'm a swanky redneck from Pottsboro- not a database engineer.  I don't have to be able to cite a 'specific portion of the calculation' to be able to recognize when the output doesn't reflect the actuals being reported. 

then quit talking about what you know nothing about and acting like you do.  it's always someone else's money, someone else's shortcomings, i think you and sir loin are the same person.

You - are - delusional.  Where you get off talking about someone else's money or shortcomings is bizarre.  We were talking about shorthorn cattle here EPDs here.  You don't have to be a level 3 analyst to realize something doesn't add up when a bull w/ a WW EPD of 27 has considerably more growth than a bull with a WW EPD of 45.  EPDs are intended to be used as a comparison tool.  As a potential bull buyer, I should be able to look at 3 different shorthorn registration papers and, based off the EPDs, be able to come to a reasonable conclusion regarding which one has more growth.  Or milk.  Or w/e.  Right now, this is not the case. 

where i get off is the same place you do.  i get off talking about my money you want to take, why you can't see this is because you are delusional, a hypocrite, whatever. you want to vote to take money from those that produce/create more and give it to those who don't, but aren't willing to do it yourself, this is simply being a hypocrite.  then, you criticize the entire database developer community with no facts and want people to take you seriously.  you should have some facts instead of describing around the periphery data with a large CV, and other effects.  at this point for shorthorns, it's more useful to rely on contemporary group information than information across herds for accurate information.  there simply isn't the numbers at this point for accuracy and there is no need to blame anyone.  you should step up to the plate and be a more giving person in the form of donations to those in need as well as accumulating enough cattle to generate serious epd's for your own herd and buyers will come.  all your other lunatic fringe noise diminishes your credibility and curtails your ability to acquire semen on the bulls you want because you tend to be offensive to people.  that, my friend, is an accurate epd, we can count on you, with about 95% accuracy to be offensive in your posts and gain pleasure from it. plain and simple, you are just a bully and want people to sell you semen on rare bulls.  my feeling is people don't want to sell you that semen because of your attitude and they don't want to be associated with your continual strawman arguments. most of us agree with some of the content of your posts, but simply ignore them due to your offensive nature.

 

[knabe]

What exactly do you mean by "cow hocked"? Around here people say "cycle hocked". Do you think this is the same thing?

they typically are associated, though i have seen some severe sickle hocked animals that are not cow hocked.

 

[RyanChandler]

where i get off is the same place you do.  i get off talking about my money you want to take, why you can't see this is because you are delusional, a hypocrite, whatever. you want to vote to take money from those that produce/create more and give it to those who don't, but aren't willing to do it yourself, this is simply being a hypocrite.  then, you criticize the entire database developer community with no facts and want people to take you seriously.  you should have some facts instead of describing around the periphery data with a large CV, and other effects.  at this point for shorthorns, it's more useful to rely on contemporary group information than information across herds for accurate information.  there simply isn't the numbers at this point for accuracy and there is no need to blame anyone.  you should step up to the plate and be a more giving person in the form of donations to those in need as well as accumulating enough cattle to generate serious epd's for your own herd and buyers will come.  all your other lunatic fringe noise diminishes your credibility and curtails your ability to acquire semen on the bulls you want because you tend to be offensive to people.  that, my friend, is an accurate epd, we can count on you, with about 95% accuracy to be offensive in your posts and gain pleasure from it. plain and simple, you are just a bully and want people to sell you semen on rare bulls.  my feeling is people don't want to sell you that semen because of your attitude and they don't want to be associated with your continual strawman arguments. most of us agree with some of the content of your posts, but simply ignore them due to your offensive nature.

You continually spew your pro-life mantra yet you don't give a **** about anyone after they're born.  YOU are the hypocrite. 

Tact is not my strong suit.  Everyone has their shortcomings. 

 

[knabe]

You continually spew your pro-life mantra yet you don't give a **** about anyone after they're born.  YOU are the hypocrite. 

Tact is not my strong suit.  Everyone has their shortcomings.

allow others their shortcomings.


i am not pro-life.  with your intelligence, you should be able to deduce that my point is the hypocrisy of the argument.


since you don't give any of your hard earned income to anyone, but only seek to take other's income, you are the hypocrite.


it's high time you started volunteering your time and stop being a hypocrite.


perhaps a class or book or reading about logic or debate would help you grow as a person and not feel so obligated to be so hateful to other people and potential customers and sellers of rare semen you are interested in.

 

[JTM]

What exactly do you mean by "cow hocked"? Around here people say "cycle hocked". Do you think this is the same thing?

No, not the same thing.

O.k., now I know exactly what you are talking about. There may be some reason to dislike "cow hocked" cattle. I honestly don't know of any other than eye appeal. My experience is that the shorthorn cattle that have shown this have also been the genetics that are performing in the correct areas. I'm not saying it is a good thing or even that it is all that bad. I do believe it is a trait that is seen in some really good commercial shorthorn genetics and it would be way down on the priority list for me to worry about for gaining commercial acceptance. To me it seems like another trait that if bred away from you may be sacrificing other more important traits. There needs to be a legitimate "real world" reason for breeding away from it aggressively.
I do on the other hand understand the problems with straight legs and having way too much of a "cycle hock". Many people have moved so far away from cycle hock that they have made them unsound imo. I think it takes a good amount of curvature in the hock and pastern flex to give the cow correct footing that will protect her hooves for longevity. I haven't been doing this long enough to give an experienced answer as to exactly what that looks like. The picture you presented leans a little on the straight side imo. A lot has to come into play structurally from a cow's hip all the way to the length of a hoof...

 

[cowboy_nyk]

I agree that, aside from eye appeal, there are few issues with cow-hocked cattle.  In fact, I had the opportunity to judge bison a few years back and I was told that they look for cow-hock in Bison.  The reason is it increases their ability to change direction and compete (for feed, mates, etc.).  This was especially important in the bulls.  Also they believe it increases the soundness and longevity of the animal.

As a 4-Her at the time this was pretty mind blowing information but now as I look at me herd, any cow that lasts more than ten years around here seems to be cow-hocked and even a little sickle hocked as well (compared to the "ideal").

 

[RyanChandler]

That's pretty interesting nyk but I don't know that there is any truth to those claims.  A cow's hock is no different than your knee.  They are both hinge joints- they're not meant to allow side to side movement.  A cow that is bad cow hocked will have knees that literally knock when they walk.  They'll toe out in the back and at this degree of severity, it will absolutely affect their mobility.    Of course, on a few hundred acre ranch, mobility in terms of traveling long distances isn't necessarily a high priority but you still have to try and maintain a reasonable level of structural correctness.  More times than not, cattle that are cow hocked tend to me pretty narrow based too- and with that comes narrower pins ==> tall narrow pelvic ==> hard calving ==> so you have to select little fine made low bw bulls.  It's a long downward cycle of having to compensate because of lack of initially selecting for structural correctness.