I wasn't going back as far as the Sables, etc, just including more recent years or the post-test development years. Over the past several years, there have been tons of cattle that trace to Improver (many through Improver 57 as was suggested in an earlier post), but the top winners have been TH free. The point is that I do not believe that you have to include the TH gene to get a good or great one. I agree that most of the steer show winners would be smaller framed than most of the breeding cattle winners or commercial cattle for that matter. However, I maintain that the TH gene just goes along with many popular club calf type bulls, but is not a prerequisite for siring a good show steer. I can't believe the TH gene just automatically rides along with the genes controlling frame size, either. Those of you who deal with club calves surely can think of a good sire that is TH or PHA free.