The best bull today?

[vet tech]

Wow didn't know that this would cause such a stir! Thanks all you shorthorn people! Anybody else out there have something to say about other breeds?

 

[OH Breeder]

I am not a simmental person but have a couple. I am impressed with a few of the lines. I do not know much about them except for I like my Mr. Corrector female and my 3C Macho heifer. I know there are plenty of simmi peeps on here too.

 

[aj]

I have heard that trump cattle have bad udders and terrible stayability. Maybe it was sourgrapes talking I don't know. I like the looks of the trumps in the pictures.

 

[oakview]

We have a few Trump daughters and numerous granddaughters that are in production.  All have satisfactory udders and all but 1 are in average pasture condition raising their calves.  The one exception is thin, but she stayed in good condition the previous 3 years, so I believe she has a problem other than genetic.  None of ours have been in a show barn for a year, though, and that makes a difference. 

 

[DL]

A minor point...there are not two lines of th...double stuff got it from the Improver line.I think there are perfect bulls for different needs. Like double vision might be a perfect bull for the showring but ANY carrier is not acceptable to the commercial industry. There are to many choices out there for them so they will not use carriers. If you require cattle to weigh under 100# at birth alot of Shorthorn lines are eliminated. So you have perfect bulls for certain enviroments.

ok, if there are not two lines, then let me share with you my story..........i leased tka outcast from todd caldwell, had 10 calves....not long after the calves were born, we found out he was a th carrier....i had kept a couple of his heifers so i sent in the lab work to dr. beever.....he ran the test....i was talking to him on the phone and mentioned that the calves were out of outcast and he said, and i quote..."oh no!  i will have to rerun the test, i ran your blood samples on the double vision line not the outcast line...there are two different strands"...so another two weeks go by and......my results were th free on the dv run, but th carrier on the outcast run...  any comments??? 

aj - the Improver TH mutation is a small deletion of a specific gene. The Outcast deletion is a huge deletion of the same gene that spans the Improver deletion - the Outcast deletion is not picked up by the  "regular" TH test. Beever and Barrel Racer identified the Outcast deletion when parents of TH calves were tested and tested negative for the Improver deletion. All of these "negative TH carriers" were Outcast related. Beever bought an Outcast cow (known carrier) from Show Heifer and flushed her to Outcast - goodegg retreived the embryos and they were used to identify the Outcast mutation. The Outcast mutation is very very rare, and I do not think that they have identified a TH calf homozygous for the Outcast mutation. Most TH calves are homozygous for the Improver deletion and some are "compound heterozygotes" - they have one Improver and one Outcast mutation ---> a TH calf. That is the story as I understand it .....I can provide you with more info if you want!

 

[ShowmanQ]

A minor point...there are not two lines of th...double stuff got it from the Improver line.

TH or not, Double Stuff  is not worth a sh!t in my book.

When you look at Double Stuff's pictures, it looks like someone sawed his legs off below his knees, and they didn't re-attach his feet (hooves) back on.  He's the sorriest looking animal I've ever seen. 

Okay Truth I think everyone gets the point. You don't like "clubby" type genetics!!! You have gotten the point across. Talk about hijacking a post, half of this post has been from others expressing their opinions, you bashing their opinions and telling them they are wrond because that is not what you like, and then the second party defending their opinion. Could we move on....GEEZE, PLAY NICE,

If everyone in the world were exactly the same and had the same opinions and views, it would be a "blahzay" world!

 

[knabe]

the best bull alive today is one that fixes holes in your females and makes them better.  if you have a strong topped cow, you probably can't make her stronger topped with a stronger topped bull.

for me, maine's have a few characteristics which seem somewhat widespread, which is why phenotypes get chased.  i'll go out on a limb here for some, but here they are for me with maine's where there is a lot of variability and probably for all breeds.  these are in no particular order

head size along with bug eyes, probably also linked to tightness of skin
hard made, soft made
neck length
front end length
length from withers to hooks
length from hooks to pins and width at each
cow hocked, but this is probably somewhat due to wide hooks in general on power cows
tracking width and difference in that front and back
pasterns, a big unknown.
spring and depth of rib, extremely rare
muscle location just behind the withers in males to mid rib
muscle from mid rib back
muscle in males and females from hooks to pins
muscle in males and females halfway down from hooks and pins to the lower quarter and inside the quarter
twist depth
bone coarseness

this list is long, but to me it demonstrates pretty clearly to me that i haven't seen one bull who can address all these traits as well as a long list of one's i didn't mention.

this is a mating game.  to me, what i see more constructive is to talk about specific traits that are passed on.  to me, it's pretty clear which bulls have the potential to address the above.  i don't have an adequate historical perspective on the breed, but it's pretty clear to me that there is sufficient variability within the breed to create opportunity for someone to try different things if they know where and why to look. 

to me, it's kinda disturbing that it took me a while to differentiate between selecting for a terminal bull for a commercial setting versus one i wanted to keep females out of.  what's really annoying is my evolving perspective that the phenotype should be rotated depending where one is in the breeding cycle.  this is sometimes solved with 3 way cross, which in my book is the same as linebreeding half sibs then circling back with parent to fix a type that excels at nothing, as excelling comes at a price.  this requires acknowledgement that smaller gains may be more productive in the long run rather than moving the herd too much too often at the cost of consistency.

my best bulls right now in the maine breed are all untested and hopefully in need in 2 years.  they are available now, but are not show cattle.

 

[OH Breeder]

just a note, double stuff and vision were th and pha carriers, how much affect on the breed did that have?

Double Stuff is "Double Trouble", and he is the worst thing that ever happened to the Shorthorn Breed.

Double Stuff should have been castrated back when he was a calf.   

No Double Trouble is a TH Free Double Stuff son. Which lead to Sabatoge( the double trouble son)......but now i would expect you know that already....

I meant that literally when I said that, "Double Stuff" is "Double Trouble". 

Kind of got that. i was kidding. See the irony- Double Stuff= Double trouble = sabatoge.....
Get the feeling you are not into the "club scene" That is okay. To EACH their own.

 

[chambero]

Boy we have some unrealistic expectations sometimes.  I continue to laugh at how people claim that "show cattle" just aren't good enough from a commercial stand point.  Some of you folks need to look out the window a little more when you drive down the highway to see just how sorry your average cow/calf/bull in most pastures are.  I don't like the structural issues that some of the popular steer genetics have, but let's not get carried away with how bad they are.  We eat meat and that's what they produce.  Your truly average calf out in your average pasture is lucky if a good feedlot would even let it in the gate.  

We have pretty good black cattle that do pretty good in the show ring and real well in the feedlot.  Are they the best at either, of course not.  But they hold up just fine on both ends.  

There is no real data I've ever seen that suggests that cattle out of show steer bloodlines won't grade.  There are a list of carcass contest results a mile long that indicate exactly the opposite.  And I've posted our carcass data from truckload lots of our cattle that come from these sorry bloodlines.  We sold ours again this weekend and next spring the meat from them will be finding its way to Japan.

No bull is going to sire every a heifer calf every time that ought to be made into a cow.  Regardless of breed and purpose, if you cull your cow herd like you are supposed to based on common sense (do they have a calf  every year), real calf weight data (not EPDs) and visual results you'll have cattle that will make you money either in the show ring or the feedlot.  It's stupid to say an ex show heifer is no good if she never raises a champion.  By definition its almost impossible to raise a winner.  Everyone else is trying really hard also.  But if that ex heifer raises a good normal calf she's doing her job.  Might not be what you had in mind if you paid several thousand for her, but its reality.

There are very good bulls sitting in thousands of pastures that aren't in the catalogs.  

 

[itk]

A minor point...there are not two lines of th...double stuff got it from the Improver line.

TH or not, Double Stuff  is not worth a sh!t in my book.

When you look at Double Stuff's pictures, it looks like someone sawed his legs off below his knees, and they didn't re-attach his feet (hooves) back on.  He's the sorriest looking animal I've ever seen. 

I have only been to San Angelo once in my life but it looked like some rough country to me. For George to continue to use and be successful with most of his herd sharing similar gentics to Double Stuff there must be some functionality there. George is on of the smartest cattlemen I have ever met and I have to believe that if these cattle wouldn't function in his environment he wouldn't have them.

 

[kanshow]

I will say that I am starting to believe that a lot of what has happened in the Shorthorn Breed in regards to TH and PHA could very well be God's way of letting us know that we have not been good stewards of his animals.

    These are not something new...  It's only been recently that we've been able to identify the carriers.    Knowledge is power & knowing what you have.. carrier or free  - IS being a good steward of the breed. 

On another note..  I believe that a lot of the very best bulls aren't realized until the 2nd and later generations & often that bull is gone.   

 

[aj]

ITK...I always wondered about george...If you would sit down and ask him his thoughts about introducing double stuff to the free world. Double Stuff took the club calf world over...it was something special...it brought shorthorns to the spotlight. Then again doublestuff infected a third of the shorthorn breed with th and pha. Did he suspect th was a problem in the improver line? Would he be proud of double stuff starting a revolution or is he disapointed in the spread of th and pha? Or maybe a little of both. I think his thoughts would be fascinating and could take up a whole chapter in dl's book. The th and pha positive deal taking over the club calf deal is amazing and is quite a story in itself, I think.Double Stuff has got to be one of the most influential bulls of all time. Is it for the best or for the worst? I am trying to clean up my cow herd and rid it of the few th positives I have. But those th positive calves sell like hotcakes. What a weird story.

 

[knabe]

God's way of letting us know that we have not been good stewards of his animals. 

Defects are natural.  it could happen they will reappear, and for some reason, there are defect hot spots.  there in fact could be a reason the defect had an advantage other than the observed trait of more hair.  there could be something else going on.  if defects are left to their own devices, they are rarely eliminated from any population, so god intends them to be there.  another take might be that line breeding brings these out and this should be a deterrent.  this isn't the case as well, as in nature, there is extensive line breeding.  i feel we shouldn't throw anthropormorphic judgement on this.  we have a test, defects are being reduced on a large scale, some will need to be educated as always on every knowledge front.  we are in a much better position now than we were 2 years ago.  everyone should be happy about it.  the ones who want to win with it are much reduced in number, they are flushing now, but then also, they are absorbing more of the cost rather than passing on such a high percentage to those who don't know anything about it.  of course now, probably, more papers may be fixed.  ugh.  we have made progress.

 

[linnettejane]

A minor point...there are not two lines of th...double stuff got it from the Improver line.I think there are perfect bulls for different needs. Like double vision might be a perfect bull for the showring but ANY carrier is not acceptable to the commercial industry. There are to many choices out there for them so they will not use carriers. If you require cattle to weigh under 100# at birth alot of Shorthorn lines are eliminated. So you have perfect bulls for certain enviroments.

ok, if there are not two lines, then let me share with you my story..........i leased tka outcast from todd caldwell, had 10 calves....not long after the calves were born, we found out he was a th carrier....i had kept a couple of his heifers so i sent in the lab work to dr. beever.....he ran the test....i was talking to him on the phone and mentioned that the calves were out of outcast and he said, and i quote..."oh no!  i will have to rerun the test, i ran your blood samples on the double vision line not the outcast line...there are two different strands"...so another two weeks go by and......my results were th free on the dv run, but th carrier on the outcast run...  any comments??? 

aj - the Improver TH mutation is a small deletion of a specific gene. The Outcast deletion is a huge deletion of the same gene that spans the Improver deletion - the Outcast deletion is not picked up by the  "regular" TH test. Beever and Barrel Racer identified the Outcast deletion when parents of TH calves were tested and tested negative for the Improver deletion. All of these "negative TH carriers" were Outcast related. Beever bought an Outcast cow (known carrier) from Show Heifer and flushed her to Outcast - goodegg retreived the embryos and they were used to identify the Outcast mutation. The Outcast mutation is very very rare, and I do not think that they have identified a TH calf homozygous for the Outcast mutation. Most TH calves are homozygous for the Improver deletion and some are "compound heterozygotes" - they have one Improver and one Outcast mutation ---> a TH calf. That is the story as I understand it .....I can provide you with more info if you want!

i would like more info!  thanks! 

 

[knabe]

i would like more info!  thanks! 

like?.....

 

[linnettejane]

im just especially interested in the outcast story...i have a daughter and granddaughter in my herd....thought there might be more interesting info...dl eluded to the fact....

 

[OH Breeder]

A minor point...there are not two lines of th...double stuff got it from the Improver line.

TH or not, Double Stuff  is not worth a sh!t in my book.

When you look at Double Stuff's pictures, it looks like someone sawed his legs off below his knees, and they didn't re-attach his feet (hooves) back on.  He's the sorriest looking animal I've ever seen. 

Okay Truth I think everyone gets the point. You don't like "clubby" type genetics!!! You have gotten the point across. Talk about hijacking a post, half of this post has been from others expressing their opinions, you bashing their opinions and telling them they are wrond because that is not what you like, and then the second party defending their opinion. Could we move on....GEEZE, PLAY NICE,

If everyone in the world were exactly the same and had the same opinions and views, it would be a "blahzay" world!

So strongly disagreeing with clubby genetics is considered Post Hijacking?  That is your opinion however. 

Sounds like to me that some of you want some sort of "Political Correctness" on here.   

I realize people are going to do what they want to do, and breed their animals the way they see fit. However, I will also remind those same folks who choose to continue to use certain genetics that cause calving problems, and birth defects this one thing.

I will say that I am starting to believe that a lot of what has happened in the Shorthorn Breed in regards to TH and PHA could very well be God's way of letting us know that we have not been good stewards of his animals.  After all, we reap what we sow.  We sow bad seeds (Semen) we will get a bad crop.   

That's all I am going to say further on the subject.   

What I don't understand is when something goes wrong people say well it must be God. Guess what, he gave you that mind to make choices. I do not believe he would intentional create a defects that cause so many problems. I believe he woudl not hurt creatures intentionally he created.  MAN DID. Our choices have propagated the defect by selecting animals that manifested traits that were desirable. By conitnuously selecting them silently we were propagating the defect. It is not a God issue. It is our choice issue.
I do not think any one on here disagrees with everyone having their own opinion. BUT, just because someone differs from you does not make it wrong. Many of your post you put down the individual who had a differing opinion just because "you" think or like. Well thank GOD this is a free country and we are allowed to agree to disagree.
What set it off for me was jumping into a conversation with some "secret" bull. You were asked not to disclose breeding information about a bull but you did. That was your choice. It sounds kind of foolish the way it was put out there if were are all being honest and throwing political correctness out the window.
So you don't like Double Stuff- how many do you have in your herd? How many have you raised or bred? PRIOR to defects?

 

[Doc]

TheTruth , I agree with showmanq, we all know your opinion on club calves & genetic defects by now ,so give it a rest. To compare TH & PHA to using "crack" ,is really going out there & in my opinion nowhere  close to being the same. 
  OHB has brought up a good point , in asking what the breeding of animals  in your herd are. We had a gentleman on here one time by username of "cwa" , who talked about not making certain choices just because of the chance to make a profit(which I thought was the name of the game) & how everyone is ruining the Shorthorn breed now with the cattle out there. Then we found out he didn't even own a cow, had just worked for someone that raised Shorthorns 15 years or so ago. So it's real easy to talk "ideals" when someone is not affected directly.
I value yours & everyones opinion on here & have learned a lot on here, some stuff concerning cattle & some things, not. So keep posting , but when the horse is down & not moving anymore, put the club away , please.

 

[shortyjock89]

So, Mr. Truth, could you please tell us what the breeding is of your cows? If you don't want to tell everyone, I understand, I would really appreciate a PM.  I don't have a herd full of "clubby" cows, but I do raise show cattle. I use a little clubbier bulls, but will not accept unsound females in my breeding program.  I also have cattle from a variety of breeding programs in my herd, from Waukaru, to Denny Jordan, to Cornells, to Champion Hill.  I have cattle with pedigrees that people have never heard of, but I still stand behind my cattle.  I don't think that we're too different, we both want sound, functional cattle, I just breed a little more for the show ring.  I am a small producer and can't get by with selling $1000 replacement heifers and feeder steers, so selling show calves for a little more money is what does it.  I wish I could show you my calves and prove that not ALL show ring cattle are hard doing cripples.

 

[Doc]

You totally missed the point Doc when I was talking about being good stewards of what God has given us. 

I really do not owe you any explanation, however I will share with you what 80 percent of my herd is made up of: 

A commercial herd that consists of mainly Super Dazzler, Dividend, Enticer, and Guinness genetics.   

Satisfied? 

FYI, not every player in the game agrees with what is happening in the mainstream, "Shorthorn World". 

[/quote]

I didn't realize I was asking for an explanation! Just curious what kind of cattle you raised & thought was the type cattle the Shorthorn breed needed to focus on. The bulls you named aren't bad bulls. I even used a Super Dazzler son until last year & even flushed our Augusta Pride cow to Super Dazzler twice this year. Enticer will put the meat in them & Guiness will make good cows, but on both of them you have to watch birthweights & extra sheath. It's obvious that you try to raise cattle geared towards the commercial man instead of towards the show ring. There's nothing wrong with that , just that other people on here lean towards the ring. You ask the question why commercial cattle can't be accepted in the show ring. With a herd base of cows like you say you have then you ought to be in a position to try raise that calf & prove to people that it can be done.