The best bull today?

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aj

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Was Guiness th positive or not? ITK I am calling you out. ;D Did george plan on breeding something like double stuff. He had been using the improver line alot. And what about the the stinger side of the deal. I remember seeing perfect weapon at bakenhuse's. What did people know and when did they know it. Did he know double stuff was a carrier when semen went on the market. The test wasn't developed yet. One guy told me Hunsley knew of the defect fairly early. Wasn't there a commercial herd up north that first started shelling out th deformed calves that had used Manatua bulls. Did george set out to raise THE club calf bull of all time or was it a accident. Double stuff sure was the bull that brought the defect to forefront cause his influence was spread out so far so fast and they started to cross back on the old improver line that was out there. Just for fun...when did aldens know about improver being a problem? The old Improver line must have been kinda club calfy cause heatseeker didn't get it from doublestuff. I wish someone would write a book on the deal. I know I have read the book "battle of the bull runts" which was about the herfords and the dwarfism problem. They didn't have markers back then or tests except test cows that were known to be carriers. Heatseeker and doublestuff really propagated alot of problems in a short time. They deserve some kind of a award like genetic defect bull of the century or something.
 

Doc

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aj said:
Was Guiness th positive or not? ITK I am calling you out. ;D Did george plan on breeding something like double stuff. He had been using the improver line alot. And what about the the stinger side of the deal. I remember seeing perfect weapon at bakenhuse's. What did people know and when did they know it. Did he know double stuff was a carrier when semen went on the market. The test wasn't developed yet. One guy told me Hunsley knew of the defect fairly early. Wasn't there a commercial herd up north that first started shelling out th deformed calves that had used Manatua bulls. Did george set out to raise THE club calf bull of all time or was it a accident. Double stuff sure was the bull that brought the defect to forefront cause his influence was spread out so far so fast and they started to cross back on the old improver line that was out there. Just for fun...when did aldens know about improver being a problem? The old Improver line must have been kinda club calfy cause heatseeker didn't get it from doublestuff. I wish someone would write a book on the deal. I know I have read the book "battle of the bull runts" which was about the herfords and the dwarfism problem. They didn't have markers back then or tests except test cows that were known to be carriers. Heatseeker and doublestuff really propagated alot of problems in a short time. They deserve some kind of a award like genetic defect bull of the century or something.
Guiness is THF. AJ , you're asking alot of questions that rpobably only george can answer. As far as as the old Improver line being kind of club calfy, I would say definitely not. Improvers are more known for being a little bigger framed & more maternal.IMO. 57th was the bull that was more moderate framed & thicker. I raised a lot of full Irish cattle over the years & can honestly say that I've never had a TH calf. Maybe I've been lucky . 
 

knabe

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TheTruth said:
Sometimes when you stand up for what you believe in, you have to be bold with your statements. 

I choose to think outside of the box, and anytime someone goes against the mainstream they are going to get criticized for it. 

I don't think most people know what a true Shorthorn is these days. 
 

these are bold statements.  allow me a bold response.

bold actions "trump" bold statements.

breeding with TH is thinking outside the box and is against the mainstream.

so Truth, what did shorthorns look like when the were crossed with mancelle's?  what era of shorthorns are "truth" shorthorns?  can you post some pics?  there's a great book about shorthorns in kansas.  any of them fit the bill?
 

justintime

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OK guys... agree to disagree. It appears to me that neither side of this discussion is going to win the other side over. Personally, I do not think there is such a thing as a purebred Shorthorn, just as there is no such thing as a purebred in any breed. They may be called " purebred" but what consitutes a " purebred" has changed through the years in order to propel the popularity of any breed.

To The Truth-  her are some facts about the bloodlines in your herd.You say you have a commercial herd with Super Dazzler, Dividend, Enticer and Guiness genetics. Two of the bulls you mention are full Irish ( Dividend and Guinness). In my opinion, all the Irish cattle should have been placed into the appendix herd bull, as most of these cattle had No pedigree.... zero... zip.... and if you had been involved in importing these cattle from Ireland as I was, you would know that the Irish breeders had little idea of what these cattle were sired by, let alone any other information on the cattle. They had no records. Oftentimes, they bought bulls from the local auction mart to use, as none of these cattle were registered and had not been for years. This is how Deerpark Improver's sire came into the Shorthorn breed. The Quane Bros. who owned the Deerpark herd, purchased Clare Man at the auction mart.( and my guess is that he was a crossbred with Galloway breeding in him..... which answers where TH came from.... as well as some of the questions about the hair on some modern day Shorthorns. I did a lot of dealings with Irish breeders and I always laughed when I would be told completely different pedigrees on the same animal... sometimes by the same person. This is why we made a motion to put the irish cattle in the appendix herd book. Three years later, some of the so called purebred breeders made a motion to allow the Irish into the closed herdbook. If you check back to the annual  meeting where this was passed, you will see that I was the only opposing vote. It was at this point, that I decided to use cattle I thought would work in my herd.... not what was on their registration paper.

Secondly Super Dazzler... an Aussie bull from the great Marellan herd in Australia. You better study your lessons here as well. Almost all the Marellan herd originates from non registered commercial cattle. The Australian Shorthorn Association, wanted to use some of the genetics from some of Marellans best cows, so they passed a motion to accept them into their herd book. look back in teh Autralian Shorthorn herd book and there are lots of purebred cattle that have very little pedigree information. Another example is Dunbeacon Venture, who has been an outstanding breeding bull around the world. Take a look at his extended pedigree. He does not have enough documented pedigree to be even registered at 7/8 level. He was a purebred in Australia, Britain and USA but was registered at 82 % in Canada which meant his sons were not high enough percentage to show or sell in breed sales in Canada. It was this way until a year ago, when the CSA board quietly moved him to purebred status in our herd book. Obviously, some of the board wanted to use Venture ... I guess, as it was kept very quiet. I really don't care, as I have used Venture regardless of whether he has an * on his registration paper or not.

Thirdly , you mention Enticer. Would you have used Enticer bloodlines if you had realized he was only a 1/2 blood Shorthorn?  This is a fact. In fact his dam was a former US Reserve National Champion female. I was runner up bidder on Enticer when he sold for $30,000 in the Hoyt Central sale in Nebraska. A few years later I found this out to  be fact and I was just as glad that I had not got him.

As many of you know, I returned from Scotland two weeks ago. I asked many breeders if any orginal Shorthorn bloodlines remained in Britain. Repeatedly I was told " no". Most also added " Thank God" after the " no". Shorthorns in Britain were placed on the endangered breeds list for several years. I was told over and over again that the only reason the breed survived was through the introduction of Maine bloodlines. Shorthorns are now one of the hottest breeds in Britain now.... but they had to re- invent themselves to get to this point.

So what is my point?  I was not going to respond to this thread as I thought it would just die a natural death.... but I can see this is not the case... and I can also see that some of the discussion is getting personal and also way off track. MY point is this.... There are enough different Shorthorn genetics out there for anyone to use what they want to breed the type of cattle they want to raise. If you dion't want to use Double Stuff.... well, don't. Use what ever you want and let others do the same. This goes for everyone whichever side you are on.

I personally feel that all the so called " Satanic" bulls some have mentioned like Trump, Double Stuff and numerous others, have served a very important place in the history of the Shorthorn breed. So did bulls like Ayatollah, Super Flag, Leader 21st and many others. They helped Shorthorns diversify when it was necessary. This does not mean that I consider all these bulls to be the best sires in the breed. What they did do, was generate interest in this breed and I think all these bulls have done this. I think only time will prove the ones that were the greatest.... and it will not be any of us who have much say in this.

While I am on my pulpit preaching, I will also say that I think there are some simply amazing Shorthorn genetics being paraded in the showring today. There are also some that are nothing more than fuzzy animals that bring some people a little enjoyment... and nothing more. This is no different than at any other time in history. Pick any decade and look back at the cattle. Some are remembered and made an impact. Many others were never heard of again. It is the same today. I have read statements in this discussion that say that today's show cattle have no use in the commercial industry. I do not agree with this statement at all. There are lots of cattle from any bloodline that will work anywhere. I could give you hundred of examples of modern day pedigree cattle that have done outstanding jobs in commercial herds. Personally, I am using a TH and PHA free son of X Ray Vision on my commercial cows and he is siring calves that topped our market last fall. 6 years ago, I sold a neighbour of mine, a double bred grand son of Trump to be used in his commercial herd. The calves from this bull have sold several other bulls for me. This bull is one of the good ones. As I have said on here before.... one of my all time favorite females was a direct daughter of Ayatollah.

My point is this.... we would all be in a better place if we all agreed to call the good ones good, and the bad ones bad... no matter what their pedigree read.... but then.... we may have to know the difference between the good and bad ones as well!  At the end of the day... they are all called Shorthorns, and are considered to be Shorthorns by everyone outside the breed.
 

justintime

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opps.. I missed a couple words in my last post... two very important words.... Enticer's dam was actually a former US Reserve National Champion MAINE ANJOU female. This is fact.
 

OH Breeder

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[size=10pt]JIT Could we talk you into writing a book? You are always a source of information and reason![/size]
 

aj

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Doc...I was thinking heatseeker was out of a cow that went back to improver like 4 generations back. That is how heatseeker got it. Its been a while since I studied pedigrees. I have heard Improver 57 really sires some good females!
 

Doc

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aj said:
Doc...I was thinking heatseeker was out of a cow that went back to improver like 4 generations back. That is how heatseeker got it. Its been a while since I studied pedigrees. I have heard Improver 57 really sires some good females!

aj, heatseeker does go back to Improver. I was just saying that the TH may have come from Improver but the club calf looks IMO came from the other animals in his pedigree. Although his maternal grandsire Improver 145 did add some muscle, but there again even he was more known for his dtrs.
 

aj

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jit...that is interesting about hs enticer. So his listed pedigree is not a actuality? I know some purebred (anti * guys) who used those lines and then talked about how pure their cattle were.
 

knabe

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aj said:
that is interesting about hs enticer. So his listed pedigree is not a actuality? I know some purebred (anti * guys) who used those lines and then talked about how pure their cattle were.

they are pure for what they are, passing on a phenotype, genotype that someone wants.  it really doesn't matter what they are.  i personally don't care what the maine's are, i just want to know where what comes from and to have enough homozygosity to be an outcross for a variety of reasons and an in cross for others.


I was just saying that the TH may have come from Improver but the club calf looks IMO came from the other animals in his pedigree.

if true, this is the most important thing said in a while.  this may be the case with PHA as well, but will require thinking outside the box to get it.  combining this with other traits that are not antagonistic to some requires patience.  some people are trying and they, in my opinion may not understand the premise, but are willing to take a risk and sift appropriately.  shutting off carriers and losing the phenotype not associated with a defect would be a shame.  obviously it will take a higher percentage of culling to get there.  i'm just glad that some are willing to try, and are using the test to help them sort animals with full knowledge to everyone to almost eliminate problems.
 

DL

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AJ - Dave Steffens described TH in 6 Shorthorn calves born btwn Feb and August 1999 - I have the article if you want it. Three were from the US and 3 from Canada - the genetics were not described. Chances are like with all defects there has to be a critical mass before people get concerned (or alternatively people who care and are concerned while others who knew continue to believe it is a freak of nature and continue using those genetics in search of the great one) - so it was likely around for a while - the number I hear floating around is 15 years - could be rural myth, could be truth

JIT - sure is possible that TH came from the Galloways however we probably will never know as they used planned breeding and pregnancy termination to identify carriers in the 70s - unfortunately there do not appear to be samples anywhere to test ve the Improver mutation. It is also distinctly possible that the Improver mutation was a spontaneous mutation and different from the Galloway mutation. That is the case with PHA in Dexters - same gene as that found in Maines but different mutation.

Did you ever get the review article I emailed you?
 

Doc

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JIT, I always believed the talk of Improver probably having some Galloway in him. It made sense to me with cows like Margie 027 " Black Nose Margie" . She died here in TN & I saw quite a bit of her progeny & owned quite a few & was never suprised to see progeny for 2 or3 generations come out with a black tail or a black spot up to the size of my hand. Thanks for your input as always, I always learn something. I'm like OHB, I would like to see you put your memories & knowledge in writing.

TheTruth, Wether the Association said anything or not , it was kinda a known fact amongst breeders, just like Rodeo Drive & G-9. I mean talking about ruining a breed , then try pulling all the papers going back to those 3 bulls.
 

aj

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DL...the oe on my computer removed the attachment to your e-mail so I did and didn't get your e-mail. Is the Enticer deal a pha problem? Whats the scoop on drive doc? He was a frame 9? Was he out of a black chi cow or something. What about g-9? Didn't the breeder get in trouble somehow.  The angus bull Grizz is throwing calves with horns. I bought a Red Angus bull who threw some horns...I no longer have him. Lets get all this stuff out there in the open. <hero>
 

justintime

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I don't think it does anyone any good to get into who did what, in regards to Enticer or any other animal. I will  say that I got this information from a most reliable source and I am certain it is true. We have to remember that DNA profiling was not in existence yet when Enticer was born, and we had to rely on blood typing to verify parentage, and this was not a real reliable science. Several years ago I had a conversation with the head of the blood typing lab at  Ohio State, who did most of the bloodtyping in the US at the time. He said that he knew of 8 full blood Maine Anjou bulls that blood typed as purebred Shorthorns, and I am sure there were many more, as there were many more imported into N. America after this. He also said that some of the Irish strain of Shorthorns had blood types that had little resemblence to other Shorthorn blood types. He also said that more Maines had closer blood types to the Shorthorn breed than many of the Irish cattle did.All of this doesn't matter to me as it is past history. We cannot change any of this any ways.

I do think DNA science is making helping to ensure that our cattle have more exact heritage. Here in Canada, our pedigree work is done  by Canadian Livestock Records Corp. They say that 10% of the cattle registered have faulty pedigrees ... due to  honest mistakes, errors, other bulls breeding a female, as well as down right fraudulent practices. I would suggest that most cattle producers do their best to make sure their records and their pedigrees are exact and correct. There will always be a few who will do most anything to try to get ahead. If a person will lie about a birth date, or cheat at a show, it is not a stretch to wonder what else they have fudged. Fortunately, I believe those who do this are in a minority. There were lots of cheats and crooks in the old days as ther are today. Some of the stories I have heard from the past about some  breeders would curl your hair.
One story I remember is a friend of mine was asked by an older Polled Hereford breeder, if he would help him catch up on his registration paper work. This older breeder had over 200 cows and he had a pile of cattle not registered, as he had just not got the paperwork done. My friend agreed to help. As he started to fill out the first application for registration card, he asked the breeder what the sire of this animal was. The owner replied" What bull is popular right now". As my friend was to find out, he had very few records as to what bull had sired what calves, and he finally told the owner that he could not help him. I am sure this was not an isolated case, and happened more than any of us know.

Last year I had a case where I found out that I had made an error on a pedigree, and fortunately we were able to figure out what had happened. Five years ago I sold a bull to a purebred breeder. In 2006, all sires used in purebred herds had to have a DNA profile. This breeder sent the hair sample and was told that the bull did not match the dam listed on the paper. He called me, and I was at a complete loss to explain this. The dam I had listed on the registration paper, had a DNA profile as she had been flushed. If I had listed most any other cow, that did not have a DNA on file, this error probably would never have been noticed.
I was certain that cow I had listed as the dam had raised this bull, but on checking back through my records I saw something that may have happened. I remembered the morning I had found this calf. He was born in the cattle shed and when I found him, he was nursing the cow that raised him. It was a cold night so I moved them into the barn and put them in a pen. The next morning, I found a dead calf in the corner of the shed, and an old 18 year old cow was standing nearby. I assumed she had calved this calf and lost it. I never thought anymore about it. Both cows and both calves were red in color. Fortunately, we had also flushed the old cow, so there was a DNA profile on her as well. The only explaination I had was that both cows had calved at the same time, and the live calf had started nursing the wrong mother. I called the DNA lab and asked them to check the DNA profile from the old cow against the bull in question and it came back as being a match. Fortunately for me, the owner of the bull was completely understanding, and also was pleased with finding out the real dam as he felt she was a better cow than the one I had originally listed. I paid the costs for changing all the registration papers of the offspring from this sire, which was the least I could do for my mistake. It was an honest mistake, but it was still a mistake.

I think we all want to  believe that what we see on the registration paper is correct. From time to time, we see an animal that we wonder about. Today with DNA testing, we have a more exact science to verify our cattle, but still some people will try anything. A few years ago, I was travelling with Don Cagwin and we visited a herd that was, at that time, quite successful. The owner of this herd tried his best to sell us some cattle. I remember as we got into the car to leave, Cagwin said " there is not enough Shorthorn blood in that herd to make one cow, let alone an entire herd". I tended to agree. They were the most non typical Shorthorns in shape and color that I had ever seen. Fortunately for the breed, this herd is now gone and I don't think any genetics from it were used in the breed, at any extent.

What we are talking about is not just a "Shorthorn thing". This happens in all breeds and we are only talking about Shorthorns here simply because that is what most of us in this thread are raising. Dishonesty, unfortunately, is a factor in any breed. I remember an well known Angus breeder from the past, who probably used more semen from the Miilking Shorthorn bull, McKees Matchless Dairyman, than any Shorthorn breeder ever did. He told me once that he really liked using Matchless Dairyman because when used on his Angus cows he sired completely black calves. There are hundreds and probably thousands of examples, but I think I have made my point.

As I said earlier, we can have some faith in our genetics as I firmly believe that most breeders are honest. What I have never figured out is why so many purebred breeders have so little knowledge of the bloodlines of the breed they are involved in, especially today. Today most breeds have their registry on the internet. Using the Shorthorn breed again as an example, anyone can research the pedigree of any Shorthorn in the world. I go to the Canadian, American, British, Australian and New Zealand registry's on a regular basis. In most cases you can go back several generatio ns on any animal. It is not rocket science. At the same time, we have to assume that most of our documentation is correct... and I think it is. Like I said before, we know there are some animals in any breed that are rogues, but we cannot change the past. Like anything else in life, we have to deal with it.
 

frostback

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If that is so about Enticer, then how come we have never heard it from anyone else?  Why has the ASA not made this public yet?   

I'm not saying that what you claim about Enticer is not true, however why are we hearing this from you and not the ASA?  Of course, I would not be surprised if this is true,  considering the controversy that surrounded Rodeo Drive and the whole entire Hoyts Operation. 




[/quote]

Do you really think that the ASA would tell us the truth about anything they know of. HUNSLEY and his group knew about TH for years and he got out just before it blew up in our faces.
 

chambero

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I wouldn't gripe too much about cases where someone slipped a little something else into a purebred animal for the sake of improvement.

Herefords never did (at least on the registered side) and they are basically irrelevant now compared to the stature they used to enjoy.
 

justintime

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Let's not blame any Association for what was or was not done. The deal with Enticer could not be proven at the time as his blood type was consistent with the Shorthorn breed ( as were many other Maines) . By the time DNA science was available, it would have been almost impossible to trace the cattle with Enticer in them.... and what good would it have served anyway.
In regards to the ASA and TH. I believe that Dr. Hunsley handled the TH issue in the only way he could. He had to gather information first and there was numerous legal issues that had to be dealt with before anything could be done. If you remember, Dr. Hunsley wrote an article in Shorthorn Country less than 12 months after the first confirmed defect calves were reported. In this article, he informed the Shorthorn membership that
there were reports of defect calves that appeared to have a genetic factor connected to it. He was very careful not to name any bloodlines, simply because he did not have undisputable proof yet, but he did descrivbe the conditions these defect calves had and he did ask anyone who had one of these calves to report them to the ASA so that they could follow the genetic trail, so to speak. I was involved in this process, as I had purchased a bull in the US to use on a set of heifers, that were grand daughters of Improver 57th. I had 4 TH calves in the first 10 calves born from this sire. I had sent all of them to the University for analysis, as they suspected it was an enviromental issue on our farm. ( At the time, we had air monitors in all our pastures testing the air for harmful gases from the oil patch) The Vet college did not call any of these calves as having TH but when I read Hunsley's article, I immediately phoned him. He asked me to describe my calves and when I finished, he said he had no doubt that these calves had the defect he had written about. I have to say that he handled this in a most professional manner and he said he could not say anything about the genetics involved yet as he could not verify his beliefs ( yet I know he already knew that Improver was involved). He suggested to me to look back through the pedigrees of the animals involved and I did. After doing so, I suspected Improver was involved myself. I had many, many discussions with Hunsley in the next several months and I have to say that I gained a real respect for his professional handling of this matter. I really think he could not have handled this much differently. I think we all have to understand that these issues are very complex and they have to be handled professionally or an Association could find themselves in the courts for a long time. Even after, TH became public and proven, the ASA was threatened with law suits by owners of some popular AI sires of the day. There is always two sides to any story. In this case, I am not going to speculate on whether Hunsley could or could not have handled this quicker a few months earlier or not, as I was not involved in this process. All I know is from what I saw, he informed the membership when it became apparent that a genetic defect had been reported and he did an incredible amount of background work behind the scenes to identify the genetics involved.... and he did this in a most professional fashion.
 

oakbar

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JIT,

Thanks for all the info.  I agree it doesn't do much  good to point fingers at anyone now "after the horse left the barn" so to speak!!  We always look to the past to try to solve problems, and that's natural,  but sometimes I wonder what "renegade" gene is lurking out there right now in each of our breeds and when the next "opportunity"
will evolve.  You're also right that all breeds have had their genetic problems and probably will have more in the future.  I guess anytime we concentrate genetics we will not only increase our chances of purifying good traits but the bad as well!!

Again, thanks for all your insight!!
 

knabe

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oakbar said:
I guess anytime we concentrate genetics we will not only increase our chances of purifying good traits but the bad as well!!

which is why linebreeding is a good thing.  if a line had "all" single gene recessives weeded out, would one be more or less apt to use it than a line some of them?
 
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