Alpha mannosidosis - old defect returns

[DLD]

cattle are like trying to find a mate.  everyone has a defect.  some are physical, some are mental.

True that, knabe.

 

[cattle nut]

I think I will buy a lab because that is where the real money is!!

I am very concerned about the genetic testing in that I also believe there will never be an end to genetic defects. When I hear that the policies come from the breed improvement committe I wonder if what they are doing is truly breed improvement or breed destruction?

Be careful what we wish for.

 

[knabe]

Be careful what we wish for.
I think I will buy a lab because that is where the real money is!!

doh!

 

[Show Heifer]

I must be late to the party.... as far as I have figured, this MA has just kinda been "rediscovered" recently. In fact, the bull is not a "new up and comer", or even a "new" bull. Been around a long while.
How did you get the jump on things RW?  You said in a post that everything you own is "clean by pedigree" , and then you said you are testing all donors, sires.  As far as I can tell, only "one"  bull has been listed as a carrier, so why test "if it isn't that big of deal"?  Do you know something your not sharing? Are you testing for MA, or for ALL defects?
I agree that linebreeding in a program will show defects much quicker. The problem is many defects are not recognized as defects by the person dragging the dead critter to the ditch. Sometimes by ignorance (lack of knowledge), sometimes by ostrich syndrome (denial of defect). 

Genetic defects are not being "created" so some poor soul can spend hours in a lab, behind a microscope, and using machines that cost millions of dollars. Genetic defects are becoming more "prevelant" due to the fact some/most cattle have a very tight genetic pool in which to pull traits from, both good and bad. Just a fact of life. Look at the Amish communities. Very tight gene pool. Sometimes not to the advantage of the community.

I guess this is where you buy semen and cattle from people you trust. The problem is, sometimes it hard to tell.

Sun going to shine again. Day number 3 in a row!! Yippy Skippy!

 

[knabe]

I guess this is where you buy semen and cattle from people you trust.

trust, but verify.

 

[ROAD WARRIOR]

SH - I have known about this since last Nov./Dec. No I am not currently testing for it. And I guess until they get a list of "dirty" AI sires and/or donor females put togather I probably won't. I can tell you that the Bull that I just bought from Cananda Is tested however.

 

[DL]

SH - I have known about this since last Nov./Dec. No I am not currently testing for it. And I guess until they get a list of "dirty" AI sires and/or donor females put togather I probably won't. I can tell you that the Bull that I just bought from Cananda Is tested however.

I would think that unless a person had something to hide they would be delighted to have the results posted on the RAAA web site -especially as breeding season is just beginning...

What is the reg # of your bull - are you having him collected?

 

[Show Heifer]

Oh my the sun is rotting my brain.
So RW, you are testing for what exactly? You said you are testing, but not for MA.... but the bull you bought from canada is already tested. What lab did they send samples to?  The RAAA just posted info about MA in the last week. Maybe they just found out, but canada knew about it last fall?  If your bull is tested, apparently they have been running tests for quite awhile, so where are those results listed?  I can not find them anywhere. NO canadian bulls are listed (I am assuming since your bull was tested, so were many others), so where are those listed at? Breeding time is coming right up, and like with any other defect, I would like to avoid carriers at all cost....

And if you think Dr.B is making huge piles of money finding DNA markers for genetic defects that he has absolutely no control over, you need to call and talk to him and his lab workers. Trust me, they'd be elated if they could get millions of cattlemen off their butts and actually live a life without tracking down something that, in all honesty, could be controled with honestly amoung breeders with full disclosure...

 

[knabe]

could be controled with honestly amoung breeders with full disclosure...

which is why trust is useless if no one test breeds sires on daughters.

 

[simtal]

the symptoms of this sound like another disease...

either way most wouldnt take the chance to have it diagnosed, I know I wouldnt

S.S.S.

 

[RAShower]

Unfortunately, there has been in the past, breeders who knew something was wrong and said nothing. Now we have RW testing his stock and some cast doubts on his program. Sort of damned if you do and damned if you don't. Isn't the idea that we need to find the problem to be able to fix it? No wonder there are those who just want to stick their head in the sand.

RW seems like the type of breeder who wouldn't pass on a problem unless he just didn't know. He's trying to know. Give him a break.

JMHO

 

[DL]

Unfortunately, there has been in the past, breeders who knew something was wrong and said nothing. Now we have RW testing his stock and some cast doubts on his program. Sort of damned if you do and damned if you don't. Isn't the idea that we need to find the problem to be able to fix it? No wonder there are those who just want to stick their head in the sand.

RW seems like the type of breeder who wouldn't pass on a problem unless he just didn't know. He's trying to know. Give him a break.

JMHO

I am not at all sure what you are saying? No one is going after RW - his bull was purchased from a Canadian breeder who has heavily promoted a carrier bull - according to RW his (RWs) bull tested clean - my issue is with the  breeder whose animals have been tested, who has carrier(s) in AI,  but who hired a lawyer rather than publish the results - that is my issue

 

[frostback]

How do you know he hired a lawyer and not just  a matter of the Web page being updated?

 

[RAShower]

Did the breeder knowingly promote a carrier bull? How do you know the results of his test if they are not published on the RAAA website. Do you have inside information? Are you authorized to release the results? Maybe that is why he hired the lawyer.

I wish the AAA would release the known carriers of fawn calf but they haven't. Seems some of the phd's know too. What's the difference?

I want genetically clean cattle as much as the next breeder. But I realize that I will have to work toward that goal. But just like cleaning up carriers of any disease it will take time and knowledge.

 

[DL]

Only one bull is listed on the RAAA web site as a carrier of alpha mannosidosis - HUS ROYALGORGE A389M U063

Since his sire of  is clean by test he must have gotten it from his dam

I have a confirmed carrier of alpha mannosidosis sired by a Canadian calving ease RA bull  - my carrier heifer is a half-blood RA out of a Maine heifer -

The sire of my alpha mannosidosis carrier is not listed on the RAAA web site - either as a carrier or free - he has sired a carrier heifer,  - wonder why his status isn't listed anywhere?

The reason I know the name of the carrier bull is because he sired my carrier heifer - as I stated previously. You will also not that RW mentioned legal issues - I would suggest again that if you intend to use Canadian RA genetics that you inquire of the breeder what the alpha mannosidosis status is of the bull - if they say they don't know or they don't have a problem or they don't believe in DNA testing I would not buy that  semen 

I did not say that the breeder knowingly promoted a carrier bull - what I did say is that Canadian bulls have been tested and their results are not on the RAAA web site

The difference btwn this and FCS is that there is a test for the causative mutation for alpha mannosidosis, and actually has been since 1997. The causative mutation for FCS has not yet been identified

 

[cattle nut]

The sun is shing and I can't help wonder what is really to be accomplished by all of this he is dirty, she is dirty, he said that, she said that gobblygoop?? What is I said there is no such thing as a geneticly defect free animal?? How about the idea that all animals have genetic defects and most of them are not discovered yet? Ever watch a magic trick with the cups and the balls? Just when you think you know which cup the ball is under, it moves.

Why don't we focus on the issues that actually make an economic difference in peoples operations. Be careful when you say your cattle are clean because they are only clean for what is discovered today and what has a proven test today.

What if the test is faulty, what if tommorrow there is a newly discovered defect because trust me there will be. And how about next fall when there is another and the following spring there is yet another etc etc etc?

I am not trying to be controversial but honestly I believe alot of this is wasted energy.

Think about the comment that "All animal have a genetic defect"!!!

HMMMMMM!!!

 

[DL]

cattle nut - I posted this as information only - if you don't care that is fine. The RAAA seems to think it might have an economic impact, that is why they are interested and pursued the testing of AI bulls. RA breeders seem to think it could be economically important to them. Having dead calves from lethal genetic defects likely has an impact on the owner of the dead calf's bottom line.

Everyone, humans included, have genetic mutations - some are of no importance, some make you better and some may kill you. If you think lethal genetic defects are unimportant don't read about them.

BTW this is not a new defect, has a rather interesting history, and it ended up in Oz via embryos from Canada.

Not trying to be controversial but it is raining here.  With humans selection and with AI and ET the use of the same animal is multiplied and defects will become apparent more quickly than in the past (read "The Battle of the Bull Runts") - you seem to be suggesting that we should ignore them because there will be another - if being an ostrich works for you then more power to you.

 

[cattle nut]

Wooowww! Down boy!!

I posted that info to get people to think about what is reality etc. I am not replying to any one post in particular but I find that sometimes these forums get a little carried away because there are people from all age categories and everyone has different levels of experience and understanding.

I care VERY DEEPLY about the beef business and I want well thought out strategic growth. 

I am just trying to stimulating thoughtful common sense discussion. If I have offended anyone then I sincerly apologize.

Poking a finger in someones chest in a bar very seldom results in strategic conflict resolution.

Just a thought.

 

[Jill]

I think DL has got to be the most unlucky person in the world!  I haven't figured out how you have made every effort to have a clean of everything herd, yet it seems every defect that comes around you have a defective calf? 
This board trashed the Maine and Shorthorn breeds for not posting known carriers and the Red Angus breed was the savior to all because they didn't allow carriers, reading this thread is almost like de-ja-vu. 
Can we all just agree there are carriers in every breed, doesn't make the breeders honest or dishonest for trying to protect their herds, reputations, income, sometimes bad things happen to good people and they honestly didn't know about it and they are just trying to figure out what to do next.

 

[DL]

I think DL has got to be the most unlucky person in the world!  I haven't figured out how you have made every effort to have a clean of everything herd, yet it seems every defect that comes around you have a defective calf? 
This board trashed the Maine and Shorthorn breeds for not posting known carriers and the Red Angus breed was the savior to all because they didn't allow carriers, reading this thread is almost like de-ja-vu. 
Can we all just agree there are carriers in every breed, doesn't make the breeders honest or dishonest for trying to protect their herds, reputations, income, sometimes bad things happen to good people and they honestly didn't know about it and they are just trying to figure out what to do next.

Actually Jill I don't consider myself unlucky at all - in fact I consider myself to be pretty darn lucky all around    I am grateful that there is a test - I have identified this heifer as a carrier prior to breeding and will not breed her. The heifer isn't defective she is a carrier - to all the world she looks "normal" - I have not had a defective calf - no dead calves from genetic defects - I have had one PHA carrier, one TH carrier and this alpha mannosidosis carrier - none of the carriers were bred

I never considered the RA 'savior" breed but I thought high accuracy EPD for CE and low BW would work well on my Miaine heifers - and in general they did
I agree allll breeds have genetic defects, and AI and ET have increased the genes of some animals very rapidly allowing for the earlier detection of defects. I think some breeders are honest and some are not - just like everything else - some sacrifice ethics for money - some don't