aj
Well-known member
There is no doubt in my mind the people on steer planet could kick the hell out of the people on Cattle Today Forum......even the name sounds whimmpy.......yeah.....thats it!
Any Sneed sale results
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kfacres
Well-known member
justintime said:
Better not be telling too many commercial guys about those BW's. If one thing was ever glaring to me at our bull sale, as that low birthweight is in, as it ever will be. The bulls which classified as IL Heifer Development sires (Which I don't know that much about other than really low BW, big pevic, and abover average on the other EPDS ( I think).. all sold like crazy. I would guess that of the 20 or so, (of the 55) that sold for more than 3k.. 19 of them were IL Heifer bulls. Of the top sellers, each bringing 4k.. all were IL Heifer bulls. Of the next 20 that brought in the upper 2k ranges, the top enders, were IL Heifer bulls, the rest, had BW EPDs of less than about .5, and low BW.s. Of the bulls that sold for less than 2k, chances are they had high BWEPDs, or BW above 90 (I'd say better accuracy of 95).
The 100 lb BW bulls, were barely getting a bid...
The 100 lb BW bulls, were barely getting a bid...
Having 98 lb'ers isn't exactly something I'd be braging about.
And Are you sure they were 98 lb.. I mean I'm pretty sure I heard you say once that you cut anything over 100. I mean seriously, what's the difference between 98 and 100-- user error? error of scale? time of BW measurement? Serious man
Doc
Well-known member
the truth said:
I mean seriuosly man. You have to draw the line at some weight. It's like when I was shopping for homeowners insurance. They said if I lived within 5 miles of a fire hydrant that I would get lower rates. I told them it was 5 1/2 miles. They basically said tough, that if they extended to 5 1/2 miles , then they would have to extend it to 6 miles for the next guy.
I mean if you have cows capable of having 90 or 98 lb calves , then why breed them to a bull that's going to throw 65 lb calves?
nate53
Well-known member
It seems like there is a misconception here about birthweights! There is plenty of cattle out there that have low birthweights and they perform just as well as the heavier birthweight calves in all aspects. A lot of people like the smaller calves for ease of mind on calving and they tend to be more aggressive at birth as far as nursing. Saying the bigger calves do better is like saying the biggest cow in your herd always has the biggest calf at weaning, and at a year, its just not the case.
trevorgreycattleco
Well-known member
After much thought with myself..........I am rolloing my pant legs up and going to work again. I wanted to throw in the towel with the shortie breed for a moment but if I got to prove it over the next few years, decades, lifetime, then I will. Crack on aj all you want, he is working harder at this then most of you. Take a good long look at the Rob Sneed catalog, I bet you will never see another one. Obvioisly the shorthorn breed is perfect and there is no need for change. Lets keep that 2% share in the cattle industry going strong. Seems to be working out great so far. :
IMO breeders like Rob will never be appreciated until they are long gone and then its to late. I raise a glass to that man. How many of you folks that actually have money to spend even gave that sale a second thought? Shame on you. You wouldnt know a good thing if it came up and bit you in the ass. I use his genetics and they are the real deal. How come thats not cool? Instead hair, bone, freeky front ends are. NOT LONGEVITY! NOT FERTILITY! NOT CARCASS! Oh what the hell do I know.
IMO breeders like Rob will never be appreciated until they are long gone and then its to late. I raise a glass to that man. How many of you folks that actually have money to spend even gave that sale a second thought? Shame on you. You wouldnt know a good thing if it came up and bit you in the ass. I use his genetics and they are the real deal. How come thats not cool? Instead hair, bone, freeky front ends are. NOT LONGEVITY! NOT FERTILITY! NOT CARCASS! Oh what the hell do I know.
justintime
Well-known member
I band every bull calf over 110 lbs and have done so for many years.There was no magical formula used in deciding on 110 lbs other than I wanted to set a mark and I decided this seemed to work . I have not had any reason to change ... yet, but I will if I ever have proof that I need to. When I weigh a bull calf, and the scale is moving over 100 lbs, I try to be as accurate as I can be. I have banded some pretty good calves over the years, but I think sticking to this as accurately as I can, has paid real dividends for us. This year I have not banded a single bull calf ... yet. Last year the only calf banded was from a cow I purchased as a bred female. I paid a bunch of money for her( $6000+) but her bull calf weighed 118 lb s so he had a band put on him faster than chain lightning... and he was born unassisted. Every bull calf gets weighed even if they are born in the pasture. I do miss a few heifer calves that are born on pasture but because of the importance of a bull in a herd, they all get weighed. I have not had one complaint from a bull buyer and that is on just over 290 bulls, since I started doing this. One of the bull buyers who has purchased 16 bulls from us in the past decade, started out by buying 4 Charolais bulls and 1 Shorthorn ( we used to have 100 PB Charolais cows as well) and within 3 years he was buying all Shorthorn bulls. Also remember, birthweights here are about 10 lbs bigger than in the Midwest US, because of our colder climate.Three years ago I had a buyer who purchased the biggest birthweight bull we had in our sale. He was 108 lbs. I had made it very clear before he purchased him that I thought this bull should be used on mature cows. This guy runs 800 + cows and I saw him later that fall and he told me he had turned this bull as well as a Polled Hereford bull out with a set of heifers. I worried about this all winter and when he came to look at our bulls the next spring, I was not sure if I should even ask him how calving had gone. Finally I asked him if he had any calving problems from the Shorthorn bull he had purchased. He replied that the Shorthorn bull had bred 80 % of the heifers and he had no problems calving the heifers except for a few malpresentations. He then said he wished the Shorthorn bull had bred the rest of the heifers as well as they had 5 c- sections from the Polled Hereford bull as well as some hard pulls. I was very relieved to hear this and I think we both dodged a bullet when he used this bull on heifers. He is still using this bull and he now uses him on mature cows as he prefers to use yearling and smaller framed two year old bulls on his heifers.
We try to stress calving ease as much as birth weight and our bull buyers seem to appreciate this. We have now completed our 4th year of performance testing our bulls on a high roughage ration. We had 69 bulls in this years test and only 1 was assisted at birth, and this was a malpresentation ( from 4 contributors). I don 't think it can get much better than this. In the 4 years we have performance tested 254 Shorthorn bulls and we have never had a bull in the lowest 50% of the birth weights index 100 or more for either ADG or WPDA, NOT EVEN ONE! This test has provided us with some very interesting data. In the same yard, there is a Angus bull test as well, and they feed their bulls on the same ration as we do. In the 4 years we have run the tests side by side, the Shorthorns have gained more and did this on less pounds of feed AND HAVE DONE THIS EVERY YEAR. It is also interesting to note that the BWs between the Shorthorns and the Angus are showing the same results. The Angus group have a rule that in order to make the sale, the bulls have to have a combined index for ADG and WPDA of 170. This year about 20 of their bulls did not make the sale, and every one of them was from the smallest BW group. We do not have a similar rule, but in looking over the bulls in our sale, we do not have a bull that does not have a combined index of less than 170. Our bulls are more consistent in birth weights, and had more unassisted births. I realize this is just one small test but what it has proven to me, is that we do not have to take a back seat to the breed that promotes itself as doing all these things better. The Angus breeders feel this formula still allows so-called heifer bulls to get into the sale, and I think they have proven that they can. Heifer bulls are NOT just the lightest BW bulls.
I don't have to tell anyone what works for them, and I am only telling you what is working for us. I think we have proven some things by gathering actual data what works well in our locale and our environment.Last year we sold two bulls to a third commercial man who runs 800 cows or more. The two previous have been repeat buyers for two years now. The guy who bought 2 bulls last year has already phoned and said he is coming to go through the bulls before the sale, and he lives 600 miles from here. When producers who run large commercial operations tell me they like what our bulls have done for them, I really don't know why I would listen to someone who tells me what we do is wrong especially when they have probably never sold a few dozen bulls in their lifetime. Seems to me,there are lots of so called experts in this business who have all the answers and yet have never sold 20 bulls in their lifetime
So.... you can tell me that what we do is wrong all you want to... but until the people who really count indicate it is wrong I probably will continue to fine tune what we are doing. That does not mean I am not looking for improvement as I always am. BUt our data has proven to us, that there is such a thing as optimum birth weights and optimum growth and we are also finding that these cattle that have optimum traits are working the best for us. I am in no way saying that anyone else should do the same thing. You figure out what is working for you, in your environment and management.Again, don't do as I do... figure out what works for you... and live and die by your decisions. I have made my living doing this, and I have to do this every day.
We try to stress calving ease as much as birth weight and our bull buyers seem to appreciate this. We have now completed our 4th year of performance testing our bulls on a high roughage ration. We had 69 bulls in this years test and only 1 was assisted at birth, and this was a malpresentation ( from 4 contributors). I don 't think it can get much better than this. In the 4 years we have performance tested 254 Shorthorn bulls and we have never had a bull in the lowest 50% of the birth weights index 100 or more for either ADG or WPDA, NOT EVEN ONE! This test has provided us with some very interesting data. In the same yard, there is a Angus bull test as well, and they feed their bulls on the same ration as we do. In the 4 years we have run the tests side by side, the Shorthorns have gained more and did this on less pounds of feed AND HAVE DONE THIS EVERY YEAR. It is also interesting to note that the BWs between the Shorthorns and the Angus are showing the same results. The Angus group have a rule that in order to make the sale, the bulls have to have a combined index for ADG and WPDA of 170. This year about 20 of their bulls did not make the sale, and every one of them was from the smallest BW group. We do not have a similar rule, but in looking over the bulls in our sale, we do not have a bull that does not have a combined index of less than 170. Our bulls are more consistent in birth weights, and had more unassisted births. I realize this is just one small test but what it has proven to me, is that we do not have to take a back seat to the breed that promotes itself as doing all these things better. The Angus breeders feel this formula still allows so-called heifer bulls to get into the sale, and I think they have proven that they can. Heifer bulls are NOT just the lightest BW bulls.
I don't have to tell anyone what works for them, and I am only telling you what is working for us. I think we have proven some things by gathering actual data what works well in our locale and our environment.Last year we sold two bulls to a third commercial man who runs 800 cows or more. The two previous have been repeat buyers for two years now. The guy who bought 2 bulls last year has already phoned and said he is coming to go through the bulls before the sale, and he lives 600 miles from here. When producers who run large commercial operations tell me they like what our bulls have done for them, I really don't know why I would listen to someone who tells me what we do is wrong especially when they have probably never sold a few dozen bulls in their lifetime. Seems to me,there are lots of so called experts in this business who have all the answers and yet have never sold 20 bulls in their lifetime
So.... you can tell me that what we do is wrong all you want to... but until the people who really count indicate it is wrong I probably will continue to fine tune what we are doing. That does not mean I am not looking for improvement as I always am. BUt our data has proven to us, that there is such a thing as optimum birth weights and optimum growth and we are also finding that these cattle that have optimum traits are working the best for us. I am in no way saying that anyone else should do the same thing. You figure out what is working for you, in your environment and management.Again, don't do as I do... figure out what works for you... and live and die by your decisions. I have made my living doing this, and I have to do this every day.
vcsf
Well-known member
I probably should not comment here but can not stop myself. One thing that really annoys me and that I can not understand on this and other boards is when people who live a thousand miles or more away feel qualified to tell a person what kind of cattle a person needs to have and how to run there business. For your information "the truth" the real truth is that where JIT lives a 90 to 100 lb birthweight is not considered at all excessive. It is possible to get along fine selling higher birthweight bulls. Just today I attended an Angus sale about 30 miles from JIT and the three highest birthweight EPD bulls in the sale were a pair of twins at +6.8 that sold for $3800 and $3500 and a bull with a +5.7 that topped the sale for $9250. One bull had an actual birthweight over 100 lbs at 107 and brought $4000.
On a different note I do not own any Shorthorns but grew up with them and have thought about getting some. However, reading the thoughts of some Shorthorn people on this board and how they persist in cutting other breeders down has really made me question my desire to own any.
On a different note I do not own any Shorthorns but grew up with them and have thought about getting some. However, reading the thoughts of some Shorthorn people on this board and how they persist in cutting other breeders down has really made me question my desire to own any.
OH Breeder
Well-known member
vcsf said:
There is a ton of research to support exactly what you said. Colder enviroments cause higher birthweights due to increase metablolic demands and circulation in colder months. If you look across the country I would imagine fall calving cows in warmer clilmates have better birthweights August to October. Besides weight the shape is MORE important. I have seen 70#ers that were like trying to pull a square peg through a round hole.
Doc
Well-known member
trevorgreycattleco said:After much thought with myself..........I am rolloing my pant legs up and going to work again. I wanted to throw in the towel with the shortie breed for a moment but if I got to prove it over the next few years, decades, lifetime, then I will. Crack on aj all you want, he is working harder at this then most of you. Take a good long look at the Rob Sneed catalog, I bet you will never see another one. Obvioisly the shorthorn breed is perfect and there is no need for change. Lets keep that 2% share in the cattle industry going strong. Seems to be working out great so far. :
TGCC, Unless you know something about Rob that the rest of us doesn't know, then your statement is taking a big liberty. If I was Rob , I would be already getting ready for the next one & thinking what can I do to attract more buyers. 1) Get testimonials from this years buyers. 2) Take 2 pens to Denver for display. etc . I don't know for sure , but I sure wouldn't throw in the towel before the ones I sold have gotten a chance to get out there & make money for their new owners & prove themselves.
Are far as the ones of us that didn't buy anything at his sale. That doesn't mean we don't know a good one when we see one. To me, it means his cattle won't work best in my operation. And I don't mean perform & produce. I mean I sell a calves for showing , some bred females & some for beef ( that don't make the grade for showing). The people I sell to want one that will show regionally & then make a cow. I have a lot easier time selling a hfr that has a Robin, Lucky charm, Primabella , 11 Queeens, Scarlet ,etc etc in their pedigree than an unknown cow family . People don't recognize the name & so it's a harder sell. And yes I know that just because they have a known cow family in their pedigree , that it doesn't make them a good one. That's just works in my world.
aj
Well-known member
Red Roan.......... (clapping). You mean my daddy isn't AJ Foyt? <beer>
knabe
Well-known member
Doc said:
in high school or college, the new boy or girl gets all the attention. then we get older and go back to the familiar and impose that prejudice on the younger ones.
trevorgreycattleco
Well-known member
Doc, would you like to make a friendly wager? He may have a open house or private treaty deal but I will bet ya there will never be another production sale like that. After the support he got how can you blame him? How do you know his cattle wont work in your operation Doc? Have you ever tried them? You base your breeding decisions on cow families that some 4H kid will recognize? So are you saying Rob's cow families are unknown? Interesting approach. I never thought of that. Hey if you make money, onward and upward. I bet when Mr Sull makes the Sneed cattle cool you all will be singing a different tune. We will see.
justintime
Well-known member
trevorgreycattleco said:
tgcc... I truly hope you are wrong. I hope that if Rob Sneed totally believes in his program, he will already be planning his next sale. Not having another sale after a poorer sale is what quitters do, and I think Rob has proven he is not a quitter or he would not be still in business. A well known sales manager in this country says that it takes 3 production sales to establish yourself. I have heard him say this many times, and I'm not sure I totally agree, but I think what he means is that it sometimes takes more than one try to have success. Rob... if you are reading this, I urge you to have another sale and hit it with more determination than you did this time.
When I think back over at the history of many prominent sales today, I can remember some pretty tough sales in their early years. In the mid 80s I went to a Schrag sale in SD, and I purchased 13 heifer calves with the highest price paid being $525. I got most of them around $300 and one young Marion Delight female at $270.( She is a descendant of our highest gaining and best WPDA bull this year. She produced until she was 16 years old) I would have purchased more but I had spent all the money I had that day. I remember counting the people in the seats when the sale started, and there was 18 people including family members and sale staff. After a few lots a few more people trickled in, but there was never more than 30 people at this sale.
I also can remember the first Cates sale that I attended, and this was after they had several previous sales, and there was some bred females and heifer calves selling for $800. You could have picked up some cows with young heifer calves on them for under $1500. These are two examples of people who did not quit and look where they are today
Davis Shorthorns
Well-known member
I was at the sale and let me say that interest was VERY high in Robs cattle. The stands were very full. I would bet 100+. Then with over 200 people watching online... I think that the interest was very high. I wanted to buy some pairs, but just plain didn't have the money. Will Robs cattle excell in every operation... no but I highly doubt they wouldn't make them money. Just ask Sull.
Okotoks
Well-known member
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I realize this is an on-line forum and everyone can throw in their two bits worth but I personally find it irritating when people that really have not produced any bulls to speak of attack and criticise others that actually have. Until they walk the walk their talk is pretty cheap.
There are a lot of choices for bloodlines out there although some would have you believe there are only one or two possibilities. I have no issue with people promoting the lines they like and giving reasons to support their beliefs. If you have to bash and attack other programs to promote your own program then I'm going to be a little sceptical of your motives. I personally don't believe selecting for birth weight alone is a good way to go if you are serious about capturing a large portion of the bull market. I don't see any reason to calve out 50 or 60 lb. calves when you can easily calve out 85 to 110 lb. calves. If that works for your program then fill your boots but you won't convince me it's what I need in my program. There will always be programs that have the ability (talent) to go out and find some new genetics that they are able to promote and make money on. If I sell an animal and the new buyer makes money on it, then it isn't going to hurt my feelings, it actually makes me happy.
There are a lot of choices for bloodlines out there although some would have you believe there are only one or two possibilities. I have no issue with people promoting the lines they like and giving reasons to support their beliefs. If you have to bash and attack other programs to promote your own program then I'm going to be a little sceptical of your motives. I personally don't believe selecting for birth weight alone is a good way to go if you are serious about capturing a large portion of the bull market. I don't see any reason to calve out 50 or 60 lb. calves when you can easily calve out 85 to 110 lb. calves. If that works for your program then fill your boots but you won't convince me it's what I need in my program. There will always be programs that have the ability (talent) to go out and find some new genetics that they are able to promote and make money on. If I sell an animal and the new buyer makes money on it, then it isn't going to hurt my feelings, it actually makes me happy.
Shady Lane
Well-known member
sue said:
Out of curriosity, who in Ontario bought the heifers?
Looked to be some interesting females in that sale and certainly some bargains.
DRB
Well-known member
Shady Lane said:
That would be me
I bought lots 32,33,37 & 41. We're going to try and get these girls AI'd to CO before coming into Ontario. I believe they'll be the first RS cattle in Canada, and their CO babies will be rare too. I really think these linebred girls will excel in my grassfed program. Easy doing, fertile cattle, that can produce a consistent premium grassfed carcass when bred to the right bull, should result in some pretty good calving ease deals too.I'd like to thank Sue for her help selecting and sorting the open heifers.
David Banbury
MIDA Shorthorns
Brighton, ON
Doc
Well-known member
trevorgreycattleco said:
No, I wouldn't. I don't know Rob Sneed , so I don't know what kind of man he is. But , I would venture to geuss that if he has stuck with Shorties this long then I would say that he is probably a stayer. I would also think that having 1 marginal production sale would not cause him to throw in the towel on having another one. I could very well be wrong. Who knows, I don't. But there are not many sales that are a hit the 1st time.
I also didn't say his cattle wouldn't work in my operation. I said they wouldn't work "BEST" in my operation. I think he has some good looking animals. It's just when I've had some money to spend on cattle, that's just not the route I chosen to spend it. As far as my breeding decisions go, YOU BETCHA. If I'm selling to 4-H kids & that's what it takes , then yes sir. Because at that point they are my customer & thats what they want. As far as his cow families go , yes I'm going to say they are not as well known as other families are. At least in my little world. As far as Sullivan making them cool, I'll take that bet on that one.That won't make me change my tune. If I ever try some of his breeding it's because I see one in person that really trips my trigger. Because just like Mr Sneed probably doesn't want a bunch of white or roan cows filling up his fields , I don't want all red cows. I like looking out & seeing all the different colors.
There have been a lot of people on here saying that he had a profitable sale , some people saying he basically gave his animals away & on & on. But unless someone has talked to him & he's told them or they are his bookkeeper & knows what what costs were compared to his gross. Then it's just a bunch of people speculating & telling a lot of us how dumb we are because we don't buy solid red, 5 frame cattle , that weigh 62 lbs at birth & without Trump in the pedigree. Color me one of the dumb ones.
