Canada Shorthorn People.

[trevorgreycattleco]

Come on guys, I took Spanish in school! Clueless to what your sayin ;D. I find it fascinating the different types of cows that breeders feel is their optimum cow. Nothing wrong with that at all IMO. When I started to seperate the comers and goers in my herd, it has always been the smaller, longer cows that raised the best calves and stayed in the best shape. Just my expierences. I agree when talking performance. For me its not how big they get, its more how quick they get big enough. I just sent in a steer that was finished on grass. I would put him at a 5.5 frame. He finished in 16 months on grass and hay and had a 657 lb carcass. Maybe not great but IMO enough to turn a profit. I am amazed at the leaness of the meat. Very tender and not weird tasting like many claim. I prefer to eat the meat anyway not the fat. I would like to see the comparison on the relative nutriton in this compared to a grain fattened steer. I know there are studies that favor both sides. In the last two years, every person who has wanted a freezer beef has contacted me because they heard it was grass fed. I have to say demand is growing. Its my niche and I am happy being there. The cattle I have now and bulls I am using are helping me reep the benefits of this market. Plain and simple. If I had a cow that was a 7 frame beast that raised a monster calf every year and stayed in good flesh, she would stay here but I have yet to see that cow thrive on minimum input type production. They always fall out. Hence my reasons for having sour grapes toward trump and rodeo drive. They were the first to earn their ticket to the golden arches in the sky. I REALLY wished it would have been different. I loved those cattle when I first started. It was ALL I had. Tough lesson for me and the banker . ;D Just my thoughts folks.

 

[aandtcattle]

Okotoks:  In your previous example you say that a 750 pound steer should be worth $825, and a 600 pound steer should be worth $810.  Now just for figuring sake lets say that each steer's mother weaned 50% of her bodyweight (good cows right?)  So the cow that weaned 750 pounds weighs 1500 pounds and the cow that weaned 600 pounds weighs 1200 pounds.  The difference in price of the calves was $15, correct?  Do you think you can support an additional 300 pounds of cow mass for 365 days with $15?  I don't!  This is just another example of how more pounds DON"T always mean more profit!  As far as smaller framed calves being "discounted at the sale barn, it has nothing to do with them being smaller framed, it has more to do with them being lighter and requiring more expensive corn to be finished, however if I were buying feeder cattle right now, you can bet your hat that I would be buying the smaller framed, earlier maturing cattle as they require less days on feed and from my experience, days on feed is the single largest factor for profitability in the feedlot.  Those bigger upper 6 and 7 frame cornburners will have such a big hole in your pocketbook by the time they go to the plant, you will never have a chance of seeing any black ink! 

 

[Aussie]

Okotoks:  In your previous example you say that a 750 pound steer should be worth $825, and a 600 pound steer should be worth $810.  Now just for figuring sake lets say that each steer's mother weaned 50% of her bodyweight (good cows right?)  So the cow that weaned 750 pounds weighs 1500 pounds and the cow that weaned 600 pounds weighs 1200 pounds.  The difference in price of the calves was $15, correct?  Do you think you can support an additional 300 pounds of cow mass for 365 days with $15?  I don't!  This is just another example of how more pounds DON"T always mean more profit!  As far as smaller framed calves being "discounted at the sale barn, it has nothing to do with them being smaller framed, it has more to do with them being lighter and requiring more expensive corn to be finished, however if I were buying feeder cattle right now, you can bet your hat that I would be buying the smaller framed, earlier maturing cattle as they require less days on feed and from my experience, days on feed is the single largest factor for profitability in the feedlot.  Those bigger upper 6 and 7 frame cornburners will have such a big hole in your pocketbook by the time they go to the plant, you will never have a chance of seeing any black ink! 

Just can not help myself. My pet subject. I have to side with my Canadian friends. aandtcattle your argument is sound if you sell weaners but it falls down if you retain ownership in the feedlot or as we do grass fatten. In these cases you are paid per kg/pound by carcase wt. heavier high gaining animals make you more money. Our finished target weights are quite high and small frame cattle just will not hit them and if they do they are over fat and it takes more feed adding extra fat than grow meat/muscle. Give me a animal with the thickness and doablity of frame 5 in a frame 6.5 and you can really make some money on the rail.

 

[hamburgman]

I feel with todays implants and sires that big cows are not needed to produce these big calves, and to me that means the heaviest weaning weight is not the biggest profit cow.  I can honestly say it has been a long time since i have seen a rolly polly fat steer or heifer at 1400 lbs, it just doesn't happen around me with the resources we have available to put more pounds of meat on these animals.

 

[aandtcattle]

Just can not help myself. My pet subject. I have to side with my Canadian friends. aandtcattle your argument is sound if you sell weaners but it falls down if you retain ownership in the feedlot or as we do grass fatten. In these cases you are paid per kg/pound by carcase wt. heavier high gaining animals make you more money. Our finished target weights are quite high and small frame cattle just will not hit them and if they do they are over fat and it takes more feed adding extra fat than grow meat/muscle. Give me a animal with the thickness and doablity of frame 5 in a frame 6.5 and you can really make some money on the rail.

Well, Aussie, I do retain ownership and like I said, our 5 frame cattle kill at 1380 poundsand hang a 870 pound carcass,  they have averaged that for 3 years now.  These are almost all March calves and they kill in April and May.  never under 90% Choice and Prime and never over 8% YG 4's.  Last year we were 42% CAB and not all the cattle were even eligible as some were red and some were roan.  All of these cattle were straight british also.  Just do the math on cost of gain right now.  corn is at 12cents/pound, a typical finishing ration is going to be somewhere around 24 pounds of corn, thats 2.88/day just for corn. add in another 6-7 pounds of roughage and silage and thats another 29 cents.  So we are sitting at 3.17/day just for basic feed costs, now start adding in any extras and it gets outrageous.  If you are having your cattle custom fed, you are looking at at least 20 cents/day in yardage alone.  I do this cost comparison annually on our cattle and trust me, even the lighter carcasses that go out early are the most profitable.  Not the first load but the middle cuts seem to grade the best and the later finishing cattle are consistently the heaviest carcass cattle but do not grade as well, therefore the carcass value remains close to the same but days on feed is the determining factor for profitability.  A steer that is on feed 1 month longer than the first load of cattle to kill out of the same pen needs to bring over $95 more than those first cattle to kill to make the same amount of profit, it's simple math.

 

[aandtcattle]

I am not getting into it with you on grass fed beef.  We do not have the range resources to compete with Australia and South America in the grass-fed market.  I am certain we americans would get beat 6 ways to sunday if this beef industry gets shifted to grass fed market.  <beer>

 

[Aussie]

I am not getting into it with you on grass fed beef.  We do not have the range resources to compete with Australia and South America in the grass-fed market.  I am certain we americans would get beat 6 ways to sunday if this beef industry gets shifted to grass fed market.  <beer>

I have posted a grid from one of our packers from November prices are up 50cents a kg now very unusual for this time of the year in fact a record high. It shows the premiun on heavy young cattle

 

[Aussie]

I feel with todays implants and sires that big cows are not needed to produce these big calves, and to me that means the heaviest weaning weight is not the biggest profit cow.  I can honestly say it has been a long time since i have seen a rolly polly fat steer or heifer at 1400 lbs, it just doesn't happen around me with the resources we have available to put more pounds of meat on these animals.

We are up against it here implants have been banned here in our state for 15 years and one of our major supermarkets, we only have two and are big players in the beef industry here, have come out inthe last month saying they will not buy cattle with implants anymore.

 

[aandtcattle]

That is an interesting grid Aussie!  I can see from that how you would prefer bigger cattle but I don't see where they list the price of cattle over 480 kg or 1056 pounds.  The grid I sell on begins to discount heavily at 1000 pound carcass, like a $30/ hundered hit!  Everything from 700-950 is the same price per/cwt but varies with yield grade and marbling score (quality grade). Base price for the grid is a Choice yield grade 3.  A yield grade 2 is premium $3 i beleive so if your base price is 1.61 and a critter is a Choice yield grade 2 the price for that critter would be 1.64/pound.  Prime, CAB, YG 1 and 2 are all premiums.  YG 4 and 5, select, standard, no-roll etc. are all discounts as well as heavy and light carcasses.

 

[hamburgman]

That's to bad Aussie, they do make animals for efficient from my understanding.

 

[sue]

Okotoks:  In your previous example you say that a 750 pound steer should be worth $825, and a 600 pound steer should be worth $810.  Now just for figuring sake lets say that each steer's mother weaned 50% of her bodyweight (good cows right?)  So the cow that weaned 750 pounds weighs 1500 pounds and the cow that weaned 600 pounds weighs 1200 pounds.  The difference in price of the calves was $15, correct?  Do you think you can support an additional 300 pounds of cow mass for 365 days with $15?  I don't!  This is just another example of how more pounds DON"T always mean more profit!  As far as smaller framed calves being "discounted at the sale barn, it has nothing to do with them being smaller framed, it has more to do with them being lighter and requiring more expensive corn to be finished, however if I were buying feeder cattle right now, you can bet your hat that I would be buying the smaller framed, earlier maturing cattle as they require less days on feed and from my experience, days on feed is the single largest factor for profitability in the feedlot.  Those bigger upper 6 and 7 frame cornburners will have such a big hole in your pocketbook by the time they go to the plant, you will never have a chance of seeing any black ink! 

So Hereford friend- how many cows do you AI and how many 6 to 7 frame bulls are used?? 

 

[aandtcattle]

LMAO! really!

 

[sue]

REally, you AI several 1000 per year. How many want a 6 to 7 frame bull ?

 

[aandtcattle]

A few lower 6 frame bulls but the majority of the semen I sell and put in custom is on 5-something frame bulls.  Some of these bulls have like a 6.2 yearling frame score but mature at 5.8.  People around here have had enough experience with big cows and have figured out through trial and error that they don't work in our area.  Okay the cat's out of the bag, I am sue's "hereford friend".  Maybe everyone will find out why in a few years. 

 

[sue]

All I was trying to point out is you have a clue about the beef business in volumes.

 

[aj]

I'm with you A and T. Frame 5 cattle are optimum in the cow calf states. I have have cattle in the feedlot currently. I won a plaque for 2nd place rate of gain in the proof positive feedlot challange 2 years ago. The cow calf guy has got to optimum their production and hold a line on expenses. I think people who live in the top 5 states for cow numbers are realizing this. Texas,Nebraska, Missouri and Kansas. I do think cattle in say the corn belt are completely different cattle. They live in a different enviroment. How many people disscussing feedlot gain on here even know what the current cost of gain even is in the feedlots? They are talking possible 13 dollar wheat and who knows on the corn? Who wants to feed the cattle a additional 40 days with 5$ corn? The frame score argument is a fierce one cause there will be winners and losers down the road when the thing shakes out. Keep up the fight my friend A and T. ;D

 

[justintime]

Here is a picture that Okotoks sent me in late December of a part of their herd coming home from winter grazing on pasture. If I remember correctly, these cows had been grazing despite very cold temperatures in the -25 to -30 range since mid November. I think this picture is very typical of many Canadian  cow herds, in that they are thick females with lots of capacity and they are not what you would call smaller framed. In our climate, I think we need a slightly bigger framed cow as the small 1200 lb cows don't seem to be as hardy. JMO. I think everyone agrees on the topic of efficient production of beef but the type of cow needed to work in different environments will vary. This may well be another of those topics where everyone is right... depending on where you live. What works for you doesn't work for someone else.. so you are right but they are as well.

I was just looking at some stats this morning regarding the average carcass size of slaughtered animals over the past 10 years here in Canada. Despite the trend towards moderation in frame in the industry over the last few years, carcass size has continued to increase over the same period of time. The average steer carcass size slaughtered in December, 2010 was 897 lbs . Remember that is the average which to me means there are probably steers with carcasses close to 1000 lb being slaughtered. In regards to price breaks, there has also been a trend to larger discounts on smaller carcass sizes. I think this is also being seen in our feeder markets where smaller framed feeder cattle are being hit harder than I can ever remember.

 

[aj]

Are all the harvest plants in Canada little plants? Do they have any big packers. I was under the impression that 70% of Canadian cattle were shipped to the United States of America to be fed and harvested. Semi load after semi load after simi load if you believe some people. What kind of effiencies do you get anyway in a feedlot in Canada with minus 30 degree temps? Is corn readily available? What is the cost of gain running in Canada feedlots? What is the biggest feedlot in Canada?

 

[aj]

I googled up some info. Canada has 5 million beef cows and 1.5 million calves are shipped to the USA. Canada has 5 million beef cows where Texas has 14 million cattle in their state alone. Are Canada's cows bigger and better than Texas cows? Where does Alaska rate in cow numbers in the USA? Is there a Alaska Livestock Assn.? What % of the industry is Canada in world wide production?

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Reading all these grain prices makes me want to go rent some ground and plant some wheat and beans. Above all it makes me want to get the ol turfgrass management books from college out and start brainstorming on how to improve my pastures more than I am.