Consequences

[red]

So glad to hear all is well David!! I bet you've got your hands full!

Red

 

[DL]

The outlandish worrying about Ace and food safety has left the realm of common sense.  Is it technically legal to use it on show calves - no, we all agree on that.  Is it (or other commonly "abused" drugs such as Lasix, Dex, Thorazine, etc) a food safety issue - absolutely not from a measureable risk standpoint.

First of all, most of these drugs were actually developed for and are commonly used on humans (i.e. Thorazine and Lasix).  Very few drugs (including Ace) are persistent in any animal fluids or tissues at detectable concentrations for very long at all (days) unless they have been given massive doses for long period of time. 

Most of these types of drugs that aren't approved for use in food animals aren't because there isn't enough of a demand to pay for the necessary testing.  Not because they are hideously toxic to humans. 

So, I think everyone understands that anyone that uses any of these for any purpose on show animals needs to go to confession;  however, don't have a stroke over the safety of your food supply worrying about this.  There are much bigger fish to fry. 

For semi-scientific documentation on these conclusions that's easy to find:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acepromazine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorazine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dexamethasone

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lasix

chambero - my issue is not necessarily food safety with ace it is more the selective decision and often conscious decision to break the law in the show industry. Just because a drug is used in humans doesn't mean you can not follow the rules when using in in cattle - for example dexamethasone - it is a prescription drug - if your vet doesn't recommend it and you use it because - well you areskirting the law (and yes I know this happens all the time) and just because your vet gives you a bottle of something doesn't make it right or legal - how do you explain to your kids that we can use ace in the early shows but not the later ones 'cause we might get caught - it isn't legal no matter how you slice it

 

[knabe]

what law has ever been changed on this topic to reflect "common sense".  seems we we have changed the ld50 number to LD.000050 or just plain detectable.

i guess with our fat laden diets, some of these compounds accumulate in our fat, then we go on diets, releasing it, our bodies can't handle it, we have problems and they go to the other fat laden tissues, ie brain, liver, etc and cause problems.

 

[frostback]

Doesn't every one wish they could live in a world like DLs that was just BLACK and WHITE with no shades of gray. DL do you really think you are going to change the world on a cattle message board? I know I know kids read this too and may get the wrong idea about the use of drugs, but in the end it is their decision and they have to live with their conscience. My vet uses ace, Do you want his name so you can report him?

 

[knabe]

hey frostback,

ideals are something to shoot for, and without them, we wouldn't have the ol USA.  i'm on dl's side on this one, though i gotta say, there isn't really sides either, just asperations and a scale, a sliding scale.  where that line is and codifying it, is something i understand from your perspective though.  this is one reason i like having options in the market place for the purchaser, rather than rules that are written today where all must comply, though that's a sticky widget as well.

 

[chambero]

chambero - my issue is not necessarily food safety with ace it is more the selective decision and often conscious decision to break the law in the show industry. Just because a drug is used in humans doesn't mean you can not follow the rules when using in in cattle - for example dexamethasone - it is a prescription drug - if your vet doesn't recommend it and you use it because - well you areskirting the law (and yes I know this happens all the time) and just because your vet gives you a bottle of something doesn't make it right or legal - how do you explain to your kids that we can use ace in the early shows but not the later ones 'cause we might get caught - it isn't legal no matter how you slice it
[/quote]

DL - I understood your problem with it.  I was mainly referring to some of the other posts that were taking off on strange tangents.  I'm technically wrong I know, but I view the use of Ace and other tranquilizers in the same catetgory as using lots of supplements that just aren't subject to the testing requirements because they aren't a "drug".    That being said, I wouldn't use any of them in remotely close proximity to an event where an animal is leaving my control (terminal show, sale barn, etc).  The reality of the situation is that is the point at which someone as a livestock producer has true liability.  When they are running around out in the pasture or sitting in a barn they are no different than a pet.  Lots of cattle are never intended for slaughter (i.e. such as the longhorns you see running around on high dollar property in Texas).

 

[dori36]

Doesn't every one wish they could live in a world like DLs that was just BLACK and WHITE with no shades of gray. DL do you really think you are going to change the world on a cattle message board? I know I know kids read this too and may get the wrong idea about the use of drugs, but in the end it is their decision and they have to live with their conscience. My vet uses ace, Do you want his name so you can report him?

Although I strongly espouse everyone being entitled to their opinions, and Ihave a few of my own, I find it interesting that you have a critical bent criticizing DL for what I perceived as her stance that illegal is illegal and that there are ramifications to off-label use of drugs - including safety of kids who "tame" steers this way.  I guess I'm a little black and white, too, but why is grey desirable when talking about illegal activities? 

 

[DL]

Doesn't every one wish they could live in a world like DLs that was just BLACK and WHITE with no shades of gray. DL do you really think you are going to change the world on a cattle message board? I know I know kids read this too and may get the wrong idea about the use of drugs, but in the end it is their decision and they have to live with their conscience. My vet uses ace, Do you want his name so you can report him?

Although I strongly espouse everyone being entitled to their opinions, and Ihave a few of my own, I find it interesting that you have a critical bent criticizing DL for what I perceived as her stance that illegal is illegal and that there are ramifications to off-label use of drugs - including safety of kids who "tame" steers this way.  I guess I'm a little black and white, too, but why is grey desirable when talking about illegal activities? 

oh Mr Frostbite - here we go again - at odds with each other and at Christmas time too. A while back chambero didn't know giving ace to show steers was considered illegal, probably lots of other people didn't either, maybe now they do, maybe now they will think about it, maybe now a kid will ask his father why he is doing something illegal, maybe now people might maybe perhaps think about what they are doing at the potential ramifications.

I am well aware that there are lots of vets who apparently do not understand the extra label drug use laws and regs - some of them are finding themselves in trouble, just like some of the people who are not following the ELDU and AMDUCA rules

I think as producers of food we need to be aware of and follow ELDU and AMDUCA - there are legal uses of ace in cattle in the rules are followed - but calming show cattle no matter what the rationalization is not legal

I provided the information - don't shoot the messenger - if you did I couldn't wish you a Merry Christmas 

 

[renegade]

I am one of those who learned a little from this post. This may save me a big headache in the future... who knows :-\

 

[red]

I am one of those who learned a little from this post. This may save me a big headache in the future... who knows :-\

Me too Renegade, from both sides of the discussion. I think some of us see things clearly in black & white, others look at it & see more areas of gray. I just want to look at it & see pretty colors!  :

Red

 

[CAB]

I don't know for sure if this is smart to ask, BUT. Surely not all of the prescribed drugs that get raked over on all of these boards can't all be given out by irresponsible vets, and all of the people that we/you blame for abusing these drugs can't all be irresponsible. These cattle broker's that we/you are all jealous of are good cattle people with a wealth of skills & talents, some of which take some time & personal hands on experience, to learn. In 40 + years, I have never walked into a vets office and grabbed prescription drugs without being asked what I was planning on using the drug for, and how I was going to adminster the drug + dosages talked about. What do you all think about these questions. Why do we want to be so fast to accuse others of ill doings? Cab

 

[red]

you know CAB, I think there has been plenty of times when I've bought an antibioitic & never been asked what the use is for, the species or slaughter withdrawl time. Humm, maybe too much trust? I'm not sure.

Red

 

[CAB]

  Red, I'm sure that the local vets know their customers very well. Most people are pretty bright and can read directios or if they have a question, call in and ask dosage info.

 

[DL]

I am not accusing anyone of anything - my point is that there are laws that govern the extra label use of drugs - clearly some veterinarians and producers are not following these laws - producers need to be aware of what the extra label use of drugs requires - that is my point. If somebody runs a stop light it doesn't mean they didn't break the law - it means they didn't get caught. Same thing applies here.

 

[frostback]

If I or the common rancher had to have a vet come out for every little problem a animal had very few could afford to keep the stock. I have a very good relationship with my vets, they know my comfort zone on what I am comfortable and knowledgeable about dealing with. A lot of time I call and they just say do this with this drug. If I called and told them I wanted them to come out and give my horse a vaccine they would laugh and tell me to pick it up and do it myself they dont have the time. If I hear of a new drug I can call and ask questions and they tell me what symptoms of when to use it then I dont have to call for every cough or fever a calf gets. Its just survival. Some old time farmers know more about drugs then some new vets do coming out of school. Take Cowboy for instance. Some people have letters after their names so they must be smarter and more moral than the street smart ones.

 

[chambero]

Sometimes a person has a very good reason to run a red light.  If they get caught or hurt someone the responsibility is theirs.  Knowing when it is ok to run a red light is part of life.  Like when you have to go to the bathroom really bad.  There is some deep thought for you .

 

[Jill]

I guess it comes down to responsibility on both parties.
I can't answer for anyone else, and it may not be smart, but I will give you how this works for us.  We have most of the drugs referenced on the top of our refrigerator, there isn't anything sinister or sneaky about it.  We have done business with out vet for 13 years, he knows us personally, knows our operation, he is an urban vet that works office hours and he will make a house call, but if it is that serious for him to come out, it will probably not live anyway.  We have a book with hand written instructions from the vet we have kept over the years for things we treat on a normal basis, pneumonia, calving issues, AI (Lutalyse and Cystorelin are Prescription drugs also) etc, there is no reason to make a trip or call to the vet when it is something we can handle and there is no reason to interupt him every time we need to give a shot.  We follow withdraw times and most of those are listed on the info sheet in the box.  

How do you explain to your kid that oh yes we can give this drug now but not later because we might get caught.
To answer this question from earlier, it isn't difficult to explain, it is no different to me than Naxcel, Nuflor, Draxxin or any of the other drugs we would give, they come with a withdraw and I wouldn't give them to a fat steer either, there has to be some logic here.

Not everyone may agree with this, but my vet isn't an irresponsible vet and I am not an irresponsible person, and on this one we will probably just have to agree to disagree.

 

[DL]

I guess it comes down to responsibility on both parties.
I can't answer for anyone else, and it may not be smart, but I will give you how this works for us.  We have most of the drugs referenced on the top of our refrigerator, there isn't anything sinister or sneaky about it.  We have done business with out vet for 13 years, he knows us personally, knows our operation, he is an urban vet that works office hours and he will make a house call, but if it is that serious for him to come out, it will probably not live anyway.  We have a book with hand written instructions from the vet we have kept over the years for things we treat on a normal basis, pneumonia, calving issues, AI (Lutalyse and Cystorelin are Prescription drugs also) etc, there is no reason to make a trip or call to the vet when it is something we can handle and there is no reason to interupt him every time we need to give a shot.  We follow withdraw times and most of those are listed on the info sheet in the box. 

How do you explain to your kid that oh yes we can give this drug now but not later because we might get caught.
To answer this question from earlier, it isn't difficult to explain, it is no different to me than Naxcel, Nuflor, Draxxin or any of the other drugs we would give, they come with a withdraw and I wouldn't give them to a fat steer either, there has to be some logic here.

Not everyone may agree with this, but my vet isn't an irresponsible vet and I am not an irresponsible person, and on this one we will probably just have to agree to disagree.

Actually Jill what you are describing are SOPS and in essence your relationship with your vet and your written instructions mean that you are following the AMDUCA and the extra label drug use rules - nobody that I am aware of said either you or your vet was irresponsible - hats off to you (clearly it wasn't that hard, you are doing it) and please don't shoot the messanger - 
chambero - we have done this before but ace, no matter if your vet says to use it in show calves, still does not meet the letter of the law (and that is all I will say about that  I would never run a stop sign because I had to run to the bathroom!

FB - information/knowledge is power - use it or not - but it is available to you ;D

 

[chambero]

Same deal with us.  I tell our vet (s) what I'm wanting something for.  They know we show and sell calves.  Sometimes our vet even buys them from us for their kids.  If I get Ace from them they always ask and I tell them what I want it for. 

There is a big difference in using these types of drugs you get from your vet versus trying to get something blackmarket for things like clenbuterol years ago that aren't even supposed to be in the country.  I guess in essence that is really my litmus test.  If I can't get it from my vet by honestly telling them what I want it for, its probably outside the grey area.

You absolutely have to follow withdrawal times - especially on antibiotics, wormers, whatever.  You do get kicked out down here for it.  Penalty is the same as for a blackmarket drug as far as I've ever heard.

 

[CAB]

I don't know if this bothers anyone else, but it does offend me, so I'm asking that we don't change any names of people that post up here. I'm not trying to start anything up @ all, and I know that there have been some, let's say brisk exchanges between DL and Frostback, but try to be respectful of everyone that takes the time to post up on this board. Mr. FrostBACK is a Mrs. Thank you in advance. Cab