Crooked Rear Feet

[knabe]

here's a pic of jpj dam being offered for a flush

http://www.sullivanranch.net/FG.pdf

lot 23

 

[DL]

http://maine-anjou.org/pagedisplay.php?id=170207

wrong bull - this is AHL Kodiak CM 39022
go thru the dam's sire JPJ *x4058319

i know they are not the same.  they might be differently named and registered in different places "accidentally". 

Highly unlikely from what I know

 

[Telos]

I agree DL on Caesar. Never saw anything structurally with offspring and have seen several. I have seen what appears to be the same foot structure defect with Maine Angus with likely zero Shorthorn influence.  I don't want to "Poo-Poo" any bulls or even a specific breed but maybe we have something different i.e. Two different abnormalities that appear to be similar. All my observations were on one of the hind legs and can't remember if they were on different or the same side i.e. left or right. Your photos in another post  look like all the feet and dew claws are effected. I do believe there are folks out there that know what pedigrees they are coming from and just go on about their business like nothing is wrong.

 

[DL]

I agree DL on Caesar. Never saw anything structurally with offspring and have seen several. I have seen what appears to be the same foot structure defect with Maine Angus with likely zero Shorthorn influence.  I don't want to "Poo-Poo" any bulls or even a specific breed but maybe we have something different i.e. Two different abnormalities that appear to be similar. All my observations were on one of the hind legs and can't remember if they were on different or the same side i.e. left or right. Your photos in another post  look like all the feet and dew claws are effected. I do believe there are folks out there that know what pedigrees they are coming from and just go on about their business like nothing is wrong.

[size=10pt]

really telos? Just because people dumped TH and PHA calves in the dead pile and said "gee we never had any of those" you think that they are doing the same with DS?? color me [size=10pt][size=10pt]SHOCKED[/size][/size][/size]

 

[Telos]

This is a stupid question but what are the pedigrees on these DS calves? Sire?...Dam? Is Heat Seeker or JPJ involved?

 

[wyatt]

I believe i was talking about a different holy smoke ... The holy smoke i mentioned was a clubby deal

 

[Telos]

I believe i was talking about a different holy smoke ... The holy smoke i mentioned was a clubby deal

I looked at the clubby sire Holy Smoke which also goes back to Kodiak an Ohlde bull and is a Cunia going back to Amerifax - CA genetics on the bottom. Wondering if this might be the same or related to the Kodiak in JPJ?

 

[wyatt]

What about the bull the creature he might have had this problem dont take my word for it tho did anyone else notice this on him?

 

[DL]

I believe i was talking about a different holy smoke ... The holy smoke i mentioned was a clubby deal

I looked at the clubby sire Holy Smoke which also goes back to Kodiak an Ohlde bull and is a Cunia going back to Amerifax - CA genetics on the bottom. Wondering if this might be the same or related to the Kodiak in JPJ?

not the same, perhaps related

telos - did you get my email?

 

[DLD]

I believe I've seen several calves with something similiar to this DS, over the past few years.  I honestly can't recall even knowing specific bloodlines, as they weren't in my herd or any of the one's I've been closely associated with.  Looking back, I wish I'd have pushed harder to find out, but I didn't think alot about the first couple, after that nobody wanted to talk about them - they were the one's the breeder drives you past in a hurry.  My point is that I believe I saw some of these before Glover bought JPJ, and Ohlde never promoted him, so I've got to think that if it's traceable back to a single bull (or cow) it must predate JPJ somewhat, or else it must be coming from more than one original source.

I remember the OCC Kodiak bull from the early '90's.  Cunia x Chi/Amerifax - mgs Ildeno (AMAA 127582 and ACA 228747).  He sold a fair amount of semen back in the day - calves were really stout, don't recall any soundness issues, but then we didn't watch that as close back then.  No telling about the AHL Kodiak.  I do know somebody that might know, though... Have to do some checking...

 

[Telos]

I believe I've seen several calves with something similar to this DS, over the past few years.  I honestly can't recall even knowing specific bloodlines, as they weren't in my herd or any of the one's I've been closely associated with.  Looking back, I wish I'd have pushed harder to find out, but I didn't think alot about the first couple, after that nobody wanted to talk about them - they were the one's the breeder drives you past in a hurry.  My point is that I believe I saw some of these before Glover bought JPJ, and Ohlde never promoted him, so I've got to think that if it's traceable back to a single bull (or cow) it must predate JPJ somewhat, or else it must be coming from more than one original source.

I have to agree on your hypothesis. I believe this predates JPJ too. When you try and make a living on these cattle integrity sometimes gets thrown on the back burner (...Trying to be nice). With mystery pedigrees, this might be a tough one. JPJ  might have Maine , Beef Frisian, Chi.. and probably has all the above. So who knows. If something is getting doubled up on both sides of the pedigree it would make sense that Maine's or Chi's might be responsible if it isn't coming from the Shorthorn.  

 

[DL]

I believe I've seen several calves with something similar to this DS, over the past few years.  I honestly can't recall even knowing specific bloodlines, as they weren't in my herd or any of the one's I've been closely associated with.  Looking back, I wish I'd have pushed harder to find out, but I didn't think alot about the first couple, after that nobody wanted to talk about them - they were the one's the breeder drives you past in a hurry.  My point is that I believe I saw some of these before Glover bought JPJ, and Ohlde never promoted him, so I've got to think that if it's traceable back to a single bull (or cow) it must predate JPJ somewhat, or else it must be coming from more than one original source.

I have to agree on your hypothesis. I believe this predates JPJ too. When you try and make a living on these cattle integrity sometimes gets thrown on the back burner (...Trying to be nice). With mystery pedigrees, this might be a tough one. JPJ  might have Maine , Beef Frisian, Chi.. and probably has all the above. So who knows. If something is getting doubled up on both sides of the pedigree it would make sense that Maine's or Chi's might be responsible if it isn't coming from the Shorthorn.  

[size=10pt]Hey Boys - does this remind you of anything? The great pedigree hunt for TH and PHA?? Now you know I love a good pedigree hunt but the big difference today is we don't need to hunt pedigrees to identify the mutation WE JUST NEED SAMPLES!!! Now of course that doesn't mean we won't hunt, and I tend to agree that this defect is not "new". With the wide variety of clinical signs (somewhat like FCS AKA CA in the Angus) one might honestly not think "genetic" or one might realize that it is an issue and hide, shoot, bury etc those calves and say "we've never seen that here".

Back in the day when AI was less used, cows were flushed rarely and there really was no "club calf industry" the frequency of the defect had not reached a "critical mass" and no one paid attention  - however with the heavy AI use of several popular sires and the internet it is more difficult to "sweep defects under the rug" because people have seen them and when they get posted on SP other people recognize that they too have one or saw one

Anyhow it will surely be interesting to see how far we can trace it once the mutation is identified. If we look back at PHA Draft Pick traces to the 1973 bull Paramount while Payback and Stinger trace to the 1970 bull Dalton - suggesting that someone who predates these bulls was the founder of the PHA mutation. Heavy AI and ET use of these bulls in the 90s and beyond lead sufficient number of dead deformed calves that people couldn't help but notice.

The TH story is similar with the founder being the 1970 bull Deerpark Improver.

One of the biggest differences btwn PHA and TH is that a dead bloated twisted calf is pretty obviously abnormal while DS can range from the subtle to the obvious and the calves are not dead and "appear normal except for the distal hind limb". Like FCS in Angus this defect was first met with denial. FCS, also a defect with variable presentation from subtle to severe,  identified in Australia took breeding trials in Oz to get the AAA to even acknowledge it's existence. It is believed that the 1978 Freestate Barbara 871 of Ka is the founder of FCS (AKA CA) - although there were no samples to test her, her sire MSU Freestate 373 tested free and her son a 1981 bull Premier Independence K N is a carrier (CAC).

So it will be interesting to see how this all plays out --- if you have a calf with abnormal real legs PLEASE SUBMIT SAMPLES

PS DLD - nice to see ya - how are you?[/size]

 

[DL]

HOW TO SUBMIT SAMPLES FOR THE GENE HUNT

IN A PERFECT WORLD YOU WOULD SUBMIT SAMPLES FROM CALF, SIRE AND DAM BUT IF YOU ONLY HAVE THE CALF THAT IS OK - YOU SHOULD STILL SUBMIT A SAMPLE FROM THE CALF

ALSO NOTE - while hair samples are adequate for many things in adult cattle they are less than ideal for gene hunts especially if the sample is from a calf - if you can only get hair you will need more hair from a calf - ie maybe 50 strands of tail hair with the bulb attached (the bulb is where the DNA is) - BLOOD is better from a live calf
[size=10pt]

- affected calf - if dead, take a chunk of ear (1 x 1 inch is enough) stick it in a baggy, label it with a sharpie (calf number, sire & dam, farm name) - put in refrigerator (or if you can't send it right away you can freeze it)

-affected calf - if alive - blood sample in purple top tube (make sure you rock the tube back and forth as it has an anti coagulant and you don't want the blood to clot - the DNA is in the nucleus of the white cells) or you can get a tissue sample from the ear using a pig ear notcher

- dam of calf - purple top tube - label with dams name, breed and reg # if registered

- sire - if he is yours and has not been collected - purple top tube; if he is yours and has been collected send a straw of semen (it can thaw); if he is an AI sire most likely DNA will be on file;  label with name, breed and reg # if registered

-pictures of affected calf, description of abnormality by you or vet, and if calf was necropsied copy of necropsy report; short video if you think that would help

- pedigree of affected calf

-your name, address and phone number (and email)

- send samples on Monday or Tues (depending on where you live) - don't want them sitting somewhere over the weekend; if they can get to Illinois from your place ground in 2 days that is ok, otherwise send 2nd day; unless you are sure it will stay cold include an ice pack. If you have a small styrofoam container that is good - also make sure everything is capped tight, tubes padded, and put everything in a zip lock baggie

[size=10pt]- samples for a gene hunt go to Dr Beever (address below)

Jonathan E. Beever, Ph.D.
Department of Animal Sciences
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
220 Edward R. Madigan Laboratory, MC-051
1201 West Gregory Drive
Urbana, IL 61801 USA

Some associations will pay for a complete necropsy on calves with abnormalities - generally for those abnormalities that are not confined to a limb (ie TH, PHA, AM, NH etc -  the really gross ugly ones) - Dr Steffen in Nebraska generally does them and calves are sent to him (sometimes frozen) - sometimes a closer vet pathologist will work with the association and Steffen to do the necropsy - I always suggest that people submit samples before the calf goes away for necropsy and that you keep a chunk of ear in your freezer - that way you know (a) the sample got the the gene gurus and (b) you always have a sample

Most breed associations have a genetic defect policy - ie how you report abnormal calves - generally it is not obvious when you go to their web site and often it is placed in some obscure place -

If you have a calf with an abnormality and you live near a U or state vet lab you can always take the calf for necropsy, in some instances you can arrange to ship it for necropsy

Samples from Canadian calves with abnormalities can be shipped with an import permit that Dr B has
[/size][/size]

 

[Bulldaddy]

I don't have a problem naming the bull that was the sire of my heifer calf with the crooked rear feet.  I wanted to make sure it was likely a genetic defect not something nutritional or envirnmental before doing so.  It was either Monopoly or Monopoly II since the calf came from a mixed flush of the two sires.  Agan, the dam's pedigree is Hoo Doo Crook X Strickly Business X Nuf Said.  I wonder if the gene involved is recessive and could be coming from both sire and dame?  I have another heifer born out of the same cow by Walks Alone that has normal rear feet.  I will let those of you who are much smarter than I when it comes to genetics figure this one out.  Thanks to all of you for your input.

Of course, I am hoping that the feet will straighten out.  She is a really nice calf, otherwise, plus I lost the donor dam to lightning back in July.  I call her the bad luck cow. lol.

 

[DL]

I don't have a problem naming the bull that was the sire of my heifer calf with the crooked rear feet.  I wanted to make sure it was likely a genetic defect not something nutritional or envirnmental before doing so.  It was either Monopoly or Monopoly II since the calf came from a mixed flush of the two sires.  Agan, the dam's pedigree is Hoo Doo Crook X Strickly Business X Nuf Said.  I wonder if the gene involved is recessive and could be coming from both sire and dame?  I have another heifer born out of the same cow by Walks Alone that has normal rear feet.  I will let those of you who are much smarter than I when it comes to genetics figure this one out.  Thanks to all of you for your input.

Of course, I am hoping that the feet will straighten out.  She is a really nice calf, otherwise, plus I lost the donor dam to lightning back in July.  I call her the bad luck cow. lol.

PTR - thanks for doing this - if you are willing to send a sample from you Walks a lone heifer (same dam) that could be helpful