DOUBLE GENETIC WHAMMY?

[DL]

Got an email from a planet friend about a calf that appeared to have both TH and PHA and had the pedigrees to have both defects - NOW ISN'T THAT SPECIAL!! so this would be a twisted legged, abdominal hernia, bloated monster with no lungs (and the market for this calf would be???) and many of these duallys have been ET calves (MORE SPECIAL YET?)  - several have been DNA tested and have both defects ......just when you think things can't get any worse ,,,,,,,,,,do not have a picture of one but I will keep looking..

 

[iowa]

Wow, what a mess!  We all need to do our part and not breed to these defective animals. If we could get the clubby guys to stop promoting these positive bulls, we would take a huge step in the right direction, but that is never going to happen anytime soon.  I live in Des Moines and I am about a 15  minute drive west to Hawkeye Breeders where Lautner collects all his genetic nightmares and I am about a 20 minute drive east to Nichols Cryogenetics. It is great being so close to both. I get to see a lot the bulls up close. I am going Friday to Hawkeye. Wind Ridge Leggs is there being collected. I never got to see him at the  IA Beef Expo Royal show and sale.  Looking forward to seeing what else is there as well.

 

[iowa]

DL,

since I am new on this site, not sure of your "real" name, but did you happen to write the article for the Voice awhile back?  If so great article. Love the Maine cattle and you have a great website and nice cattle.  I grew up showing with the Bogaards, DeHaans, Van Vliets and Cores.  They were all in my county and had a great time showing with them.

 

[red]

Wow, so they bred a potential double carrier to a double carrier bull? That takes balls!
did they save the calf? I'd almost be scared to see what it looked like! If the media freaks out over 6 legged calves, wonder what they'd do over a PHA/TH monster?

Iowa, you caught her! She's been a real gem for the Voice, it's too bad that the power's that be have decided not to run anymore of her articles. She always has a venue here on the board though for all information!

Red

 

[ELBEE]

Iowa I'll be anxious to here you opinion of the Leggs calf, since I've heard so many conflicting, and how he compares with our Leggs son.

I still maintain, it's the JUDGES, that are the problem. If the defective type were not winning they'd go away, FAST. It's that little extra freakishness, that they could stay away from.

 

[red]

So Iowa, you can give us some of the inside scope on how these bulls really look! I'm starting to think that you need to see a bull in his real life clothes to make any informed descions. After learning more w/ these photo programs, I'm getting convinced you can make anything look the way you want too.
what is looking good to you right now? what is a nighmare?


Red

 

[ELBEE]

Reminds me of when Warhorse was stalled next to Gizmo at Voglers. He looked like something I'd shoot in the head and drag over the hill. (Sorry Greg)!

 

[red]

Yep, my biggest mistake was using him. Now I've got a cow that I know is a THC & probalby a PHAC too.
That was one of those cases that we didn't know what was going on before we bred to him. Cow has actually had some of my best calves but she is also out of my big red cow.

Red

 

[Will]

Iowa I'll be anxious to here you opinion of the Leggs calf, since I've heard so many conflicting, and how he compares with our Leggs son.

I still maintain, it's the JUDGES, that are the problem. If the defective type were not winning they'd go away, FAST. It's that little extra freakishness, that they could stay away from.

What is the leggs bull you have?  I would be interested in knowing more about him, what kind of cow is he out of?  I have several cows that go back to leggs a few generations back.  Very versital cattle.

 

[ELBEE]

FS Improver Plus 4074969, feel free to look him up. Out of one of the best cows ever produced at ELBEE. Not for wanabies, newbies, or faint of heart. A real cattlemans bull, all 2600# of him. I refuse to picture him on the net! No way a picture could ever do this bull justice.

References available from; our own SJCC, Dr. Ron Bolze, Dr. Ken Lacey, and Bill Schardein (co-owner).

 

[Jill]

Wow, what a mess!  We all need to do our part and not breed to these defective animals. If we could get the clubby guys to stop promoting these positive bulls, we would take a huge step in the right direction, but that is never going to happen anytime soon.  I live in Des Moines and I am about a 15  minute drive west to Hawkeye Breeders where Lautner collects all his genetic nightmares and I am about a 20 minute drive east to Nichols Cryogenetics. It is great being so close to both. I get to see a lot the bulls up close. I am going Friday to Hawkeye. Wind Ridge Leggs is there being collected. I never got to see him at the  IA Beef Expo Royal show and sale.  Looking forward to seeing what else is there as well.

Hey, since you have been to Nichols, how does Open Bar look?  We just got semen in on him, good reports from the owners.  Thanks

 

[Jill]

Wow, so they bred a potential double carrier to a double carrier bull? That takes balls!
did they save the calf? I'd almost be scared to see what it looked like! If the media freaks out over 6 legged calves, wonder what they'd do over a PHA/TH monster?

Iowa, you caught her! She's been a real gem for the Voice, it's too bad that the power's that be have decided not to run anymore of her articles. She always has a venue here on the board though for all information!

Red

Why did they decide not to run anymore of her articles?  I hadn't heard that.

 

[red]

Jill, you might get it from the horse's mouth ( sorry DL) but they told her they wanted to do more breeder & people profiles.
Think in my opinion some didn't like all the information she was putting out on the defects. You know it's better to bury one's head in the sand than educate people!

Red

 

[DL]

I think I pissed off a lot of people with clout, seats on the board, and carrier animals to peddle. Now of course this is just MHO (and interpretation!) But if that is the case I would say that the articles did exactly what they were intended to do.... (clapping) (clapping) (clapping) (dog) (dog) (dog) (not easy to catch a running dog, ancient dragon proverb...)

 

[iowa]

Thanks Red for confirming the identity of DL!    Elbee, you are right about the judges. Stocking picking the freaks and the steer jocks and clubby breeders will have to change.    Elbee I will give you my honest opinion of the new Leggs bull and even bring a picture if your lucky.    Red, I have not been to either Nichols or Hawkeyes this year, but last year I saw a few club calf bulls at Hawkeye a few shorthorns from Sullivan's. Heatwave the original was/is so crippled that he could barely stand up when I was there. He got up for about 30 seconds and then laid right back down, not a pretty sight. I saw Who Made Who, he looked ok, not what I had expected. He was somewhat "plain" looking.  Heat Wave 1 was pretty decent looking, great length of body and thick, still won't use him though. I saw the Lautner bull Donnie and he looked awful. He was nothing but legs, no thickness or depth of body. They must have really doctored up his original pictures or he just grew straight up.  I am not sure what shorthorn bulls of Sullivan's were there as the names were not on them, but they were all very nice bulls. Red,  I will see if I can get some pictures of some of the bulls and send the ones you maybe interested in.

Jill, I have not seen Open Bar at Nichols. I am usually running in to fill the semen tank up and I usually don't see a whole lot there. The last good maine bull I saw was Jazz and he was impressive. Tremendous length, that is the thing that stands out in my mind, very thick, good depth of body and moved pretty good, all feet pointed in the right direction. I will have to call Nichols and see who is being currently collected. I would like to see Open Bar in person. I had one bull calf by him this year and really like the calf. Very moderate framed, great fronted, thick and doesn't appear to have any structural issues at this time. 

Thanks DL for ruffling feathers! I wish someone had done that long ago.  It is great to have your insight and knowledge available to us.

 

[knabe]

I think what has to change as well is the age at which photos are available for these bulls.  this is what is so impressive about the older bulls. There are mature pictures of them and they stand out in our minds with their overalls on, rather than their church clothes.  I realize that living in a pen barely ten times their body size is not very good for soundness and generally makes them sore, and understanding the economics of this, but it just seems a little more could be done to serve the industry.  essentially what we are doing is breeding for a futurity, similar to the thoroughbred and cutting and reining industry.  In those industries, so many individuals break down due to conformation or trainability, that many later maturing,(granted, that is a positive in the beef industry) indivduals don't see service.  resistance is very high to just change the futurities by a few months.  freckles playboy QH was one later maturing individual in the cutting industry that made it.  I know i can't afford to go to a parade of bulls show in the midwest, or to a semen collection center, so it would be nice to see a different format.  perhaps this is why the internet will help as breeders can take on some of their own marketing.  that said, the earlier comment about not posting a picture because it wouldn't do the animal justice, i understand as well.

 

[Jill]

The problem I see with pictures is 1. They are not 3 dimensional 2. They all SO doctored anymore whether a mature picture or baby you don't really know if you are looking at a bull or the version of the bull they want you to see.  In my opinion when you doctor a bull in a picture it is false advertising, I'm not talking the background or the showhalter, some of them have changed the whole body, that to me is just plain wrong!

 

[iowa]

Posted by: ELBEE 
Insert Quote
Reminds me of when Warhorse was stalled next to Gizmo at Voglers. He 


Elbee, what do you think of the new shorty that Greg is promoting out of Gizmo? Was in his shorthorn ad in the last Show Circuit, called Expo?

 

[OH Breeder]

pg 194 of the New Voice has a mature picture of Ali. Interesting. He does look good.

 

[Telos]

I agree with all the above, especially about the judges. Chambero made and interesting observation on another topic about how well the judges are selecting the steers which are hanging nice carcasses, but is anyone taking into account what compromises which  had to take place in order to get those heavy muscled-high cutting steers to market. For example... were they 100lbs. plus at birth and are the female counterparts sound enough to make replacements?  How many train wrecks did it it take before you got that good one? With the average restauranteur and household consumer wanting about a 13 to 14.5 sq. in. ribeye, do we need to put such a premium on these extremely heavy muscled steers? Can a commercial operator make a profit with the kind of steers being selected or would he go broke?

It sure would be nice to hear a judge say again...I'm using this steer as your champion, because I feel he comes closest to meeting the demands of all the segments of our industry.