WCC said:
Hey WCC - I find the whole thing fascinating - the genetic and the medical side of TH and PHA are interesting, but perhaps more interesting is the human response to these recessive disorders. In the beginning really nobody stepped up to the plate - I saw people circling their wagons and trying "to dump" for big money cattle and embryos or those animals suspected or known to be carriers. I think $ has a lot to do with how people react and behave re these issues and everyone has to decide for themselves what they can do and still sleep at night. I know there are people out there who sleep no matter what and there are people out there who stew and fret over things others think are silly. I also thing it depends a lot on what you have in your pasture - ie if your herd is clean it is easier to say you won't sell carriers than if your herd if filled with carriers. However I also know people who have a lot of carriers and won't sell them as breeding stock but just directly to the kill floor. On the same sort of line I am aware of a man who had a Johne's disease problem in a registered herd who refused to sell any animals as breeding stock until his herd was cleaned up and this took double digit years - I believe his sense of ethics is unusual.
I still think that the vast majority of people buying cattle don't get it - spoke to a guy at Ohio who when I asked if he knew about TH and PHA said he was only buying negative animals - he bought a carrier bull and carrier female......if he has a PHA calf he may never again buy a Maine.
red I wasn't sure what your post was about either - I haven't seen any breeder bashing here and don't see this as a breeder bashing topic. By virtue of the fact that Buck, DeRouchey, Hartman, Collins, etc and whoever have big sales (may or may not sell/use carriers) they are "in the public domain" and open to discussion. Likewise, those selling semen including those who own the bulls like Lautner and those who just provide the product like Coover are in the public domain and I see nothing wrong with discussing the facts surrounding their endeavors or even discussing how our philosophy may differ from theirs.
Like I have said before I think not disclosing the "whole status" of a bull in a glossy catalog is not slick advertising or accentuating the positive but a sin of omission - if I was in a bad mood I would use a different phrase!
, but I am not ;D The PHA test has been around for a while, not getting bulls tested prior to a March distribution of a catalog is tacky at best. Good grief almost all the animals at the Ohio Beef Expo were tested and the word to do it came in December I think! Certainly there could have been better planning. Big letters over Draft Pick saying he is TH FREE or over Improver saying his PHA FREE is deception by omission.WCC Re your specific question - cutting all carrier bulls but still promoting carrier bulls dose sort of smack of a double standard. I know breeders who felt it was an ethical imperative to pull their carrier bulls and stop promoting them. I personally think that is the right thing to do, particularly if you make the statement that the condition can be managed by not using carrier bulls - kinda sounds like a politician talking out of both sides of the mouth. I would have handled it differently. And yes this is the good old US of A so people can decide to use carrier bulls if they want - I just don't want. I understand the concept of "managing females" however I suspect that many of those who manage them by using clean bulls will sell untested females and I think that isn't managing anything but the pocket book.
It appears that when $ enters the picture things become very muddy for some. I was asked over the weekend didn't I think I was missing out on some great genetics by not using Paddy O'Malley - after all 50% of his calves will be free - yeah true - but 50% will also be carriers and I am not in a position to dispose of 50% of my calves - besides there isn't a carrier bull out there that has enough of anything I want to make up for the fact that he carries a lethal genetic defect. From a purely medical point of view this is a bad deal. Then try to explain to your 7 year old daughter, granddaughter, niece etc why her heifer died and why she had this monster calf.
I think these are topics that need to be talked about and that we need to continue to try to educate people - every year new kids enter 4H - every year they have parents who are clueless and might fall prey to those who put $ on top of ethics. I find it interesting that we have been called all sorts of names - some kinda nasty - and told to "grow up" (so talking about a lethal genetic defect means we are juvenile??) - my guess is that most of the time the name callers have something to hide. If you buy a bull or heifer from me it will have an accurate BW, WW, vaccination record and it will be clean - just seems like the right thing to do and yup I sleep well at night. Others have a different perspective.
Raining here - I'd be glad to send it down to you WCC but it would probably get stuck in Ohio! Red - I believe that the Golden Knotted Panty Award will have to be split btwn you and knabe - I'll leave it to you to decide the split! Yup, Harry Truman said
I NEVER GIVE THEM HELL. I JUST TELL THE TRUTH AND THEY THINK IT IS HELL!
gotta admit I like Show Heifers quote Bad taste is simply saying the truth before it should be said.
suspect I have a touch of bad taste too! Have a great day, DL
