How far to go w/ cheaters?

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afhm

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I have been at shows before where cattle were turned loose in the tieouts the night before the show (these didn't just come untied they were in pens with gates chained shut.  Had some friends that had a heifer that was unbeaten moved from one ties out to another in the middle of the night, her halter had to been changed they use a very distinctive color combo recognized from far away, and not found until the show was over (she magically reappeared in her tie out stall).  Had some friends in Denver one year get to tie outs  the morning of the show and found their best heifer had been stabbed in the rear with a pitchfork.    Had a girl with a steer from us a few years ago drawing her steer down for weigh in that kept gaining weight, managed to catch another girl giving her calf water when she thought no one was around.  It is amazing what jealous people will do to keep others from winning.  I personally have less tolerance for those committing acts of sabotage than I do for those who cheated.  Remember do onto others as you wish them to do to you.
 

Show Heifer

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Cowz - If I knew who did that to my animal, I would have said "turn about is fair play" only NOT to the persons cattle. I guess I believe ol' western justice is the best!! Heaven knows our justice system sucks.

Just heard about a reserve breed champ at our state fair had falsified papers....the heifer DID NOT type to her papers, the DNA is already back, but due to the "uncooperative spririt" of a fellow breeder, the cheating family will stay in the breed, but DQ'd from the show. And to think this "father" is a teacher??????? My God, what is the world coming to?
I think a little "western justice" might be in order! :mad:
 

Rocky Hill Simmental

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cowz said:
itk said:
This will cost me some karma but I don't think the county should be able to punish the exhibitor at all if the infraction happened at a state show. I think the county can only enforce violations if they happen at that level. It is also hard to prove guilt in these instances. The only way to prove that the family actually did this is if a witness comes forward and that is very unlikely. For all we know someone came and sabotaged the calf in tie outs the night before. Go to any major show and there are always a few people sleeping in tie outs making sure their animals don't get messed with (or maybe waiting for the right time to mess with other peoples calves.)

It is so sad that we feel like we have to feel like we have to sleep in the tie outs, but that is a true, true statement.  This actually happened to us.  My son's heifer had been winning a lot.  We got to the tie outs at 5 am the morning before the state fair show and she had a broken tail, a huge swollen hock (Base ball anyone) and a wild demeanor.  Our stall signs had expletives written on them.  We know exactly who did this.  These shows are supposed to be for the kids and supposed to be enjoyable.  Things like this just take the joy out of it sometimes.

That's just terriable. :( It's shame that people do those kind of things. If it would have been one of my heifer I would have either called the police or beat the person up myself (I'm not a violent person but if someone messed with my animals then I'd beat them until they were black and blue). Nobody should have the right to hurt anyone else's animals no matter what. :( One thing I can not stand - Someone messing up other people's animals. If they have a problem, they should take it out on me, not my animals - anyone who hurts an animal is a foolish coward in my opinion.

I've never used tie outs too much because I don't have a camper so I stay in the barn anyway. I always sleep right behind the cattle in the barn to watch them. The first year I showed some drunk guys came by and were untieing some steers just two stalls down from my heifer. Luckly the neck ties were knotted up so much they couldn't get them lose so none of them got away.
 

Telos

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fluffer said:
You all have very good points ;).  My favorite saying is "what goes around comes around"  The people who cheat and win, when they get home, do you all really think they are really happy?  For me, I am happy to just do well and know that I am being 100% honest.  And that would include the birthdate on my cattle.  So many people forget that at the end of the day these cattle are supposed to be outstanding individuals that go out in the field and produce.  Regardless of if they are producing calves or beef.  I don't "play down" birthdates on my cattle, and if that means that we don't show them because they are 250 lbs lighter then the other calves that are supposedly born the same time then so be it.  At least I can sell producers bull and females that go out and produce in the field where it really matters.
Sorry,this may be a little off point- but it just came to my mind.

Just a side note too.  When someone is caught cheating is depends on how they are charged what the recourse is.  If it is a misdemeanor, or a felony, etc.  Personally I am with the "hard butts" ;D


I think you have the right attitude, Fluffer. It is a cowardly, insecure person who has to cheat to try and beat honest people who abide by the rules. It is even more sad when the adults are responsible.
 

AAOK

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My reply to the post on BW:

Wow! What a vindictive bunch. I don't see how the County should even come into play. The infraction was at the State Fair. I'm sure they have a procedure in place to determine the penalty. Since the event in question didn't occur at the County show, the County should not have a say. and neither should any other show. Live and let die.
 

stick

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that's like saying if you get caught cheating it's OK, you just can't show at the show you got caught at? Take that further, Vick should be able to play football except in North Carolina(or where ever his dog place was)?  Gordon and Johnson and other NASCAR crewchiefs that get caught should be able to be at the tracks except where they got caught at?  ???
 

knabe

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the county should have a say, all they have to do is adopt rules.  it's arbitrary, just like enforcing NAIS, which is optional, but becomes mandatory when all the organizations mandate it.  in that case, there is no choice, it's mandatory.  this in a nutshell is the dilemna of circular logic.  where do you draw the lines, and can you do so retroactively, and in jurisdictions outside where the crime was commited.  this is the same argument of nullifying federal laws at the state level.

that said, this is what i would do.  a new rule stating that anyone caught cheating anywhere and anyone associated with them linked through receipts for services or whatever through sworn testimony or something, will have their names posted at the schedule and in the judges hands so that he knows when he is in a class with those people, that he should pay special attention.  not only that, but those people now have to submit appropriate samples at various intervals just to show.  one has to remember that rules are arbitrary and discriminatory against cheating and violators.  one could apply the rule till the age of 21 or something.  once a rule is in place, to participate, just like was mentioned about NAIS rules at the state level, if you participate, you are agreeing to the rules.  you have the choice not to participate.
 

DL

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stick said:
that's like saying if you get caught cheating it's OK, you just can't show at the show you got caught at? Take that further, Vick should be able to play football except in North Carolina(or where ever his dog place was)?  Gordon and Johnson and other NASCAR crewchiefs that get caught should be able to be at the tracks except where they got caught at?  ???

To take it one step further (to the absurd perhaps) - all the duds caught with testosterone or other performance enhancing agents can run or jump or whatever in different venues - just not the one they got caught at. Great message to our kids. So, once you get out of prison for murder it is OK to murder in a different state? or Vick could fight dogs and gamble on them in New York - that's OK too. Man there are always excuses for bad behaviou

cowz- that is absolutely awful - and sure is a welfare / animal health concern - did you contact anyone? who would be the appropriate people?  All for the purple ribbon that is really just meaningless fabric - is it any wonder that people lie about TH and PHA when there are those who would do that to your heifer....??
:mad:
 

knabe

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i noticed one of the responses at BW was that the judge put the steer in question in the 2nd hole.  is this the lowest spot that mandates testing?  perhaps the judge knew what he was doing and placed the steer  there knowing that it would get tested.  is there a better way of doing this so it doesn't have to happen in the ring?  or better yet, can the exposure happen in the ring for air, or if the judge is wrong, they are just setting themselves up for embarassment?  is injected air or vegetable oil only detectable postmortem?  we had accusations at our local fair by cross the street neighbors.  tests were negative, so the bad vibes didn't heal and to this day, they hate each other.  sad.
 

cowz

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We were sickened by what happened to the heifer.  She recovered.   (She had to go out to pasture to restore her good nature.)  That ended her show career. Without proof, we worried what the guy would do to our kids.  The safety of my family will always be more important than any possession or getting revenge.   Unfortunately, sometimes we just have to pick our battles.

The nasty hijinks that go on in the tie outs in Denver are legendary.  And believe me, nobody is tough enough to sleep outside in the tie outs on the edge of the Platte River when it is 5 below zero.  (Hint: remove your eartags and never identify your name on your tie out area.  Never leave a pitch fork or shovel.)  It is amazing to me the lengths that hired fitters will go to chase a banner.

 

red

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it happens at higher levels too. I remember one year at Louisville, a bull was beaten very bad in the barn one night. It was witnessed by a person that worked for the facility. As far as I know nothing was done. I just remember it saddened me greatly & the people that were accused went down in my esteem forever.

Red
 

chambero

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I agree with AAOK and others.  In rare exceptions involving positive drugs tests (which there aren't that many of by the way - I have a classmate who is the official vet for one of our majors in Texas and he sees the results from his show + attends formal meetings where they discuss the others), these things are never black and white unless you catch somebody that is just plain stupid.  You are dealing with kids here and you just can't run around trying see who you can "beat up" or ban for life.  Of course such a thing would never happen to your kid right.  Barn gossip is so ridiculous and rumors catch like wildfire I still bet 90% of the "I know for sure" statements are just plain lies.  Over the last couple of years plenty of you have talked about your kids being falsely accused of something that it should make you stop and think twice about wanting to run someone else's kid up the flagpole.  Folks - this is a game and it isn't worth ruining a kid's future over it.  As I've said many times, shows should enforce the rules and penalties they already have written and that should be the end of it.

Mentions of several issues have been brought up on this post I'd love to discuss.  I think there are a lot of misconceptions and inaccurate statements that are thrown out that need discussing.  I'm sticking my neck out here and painting a bullseye on myself, but let's please have a honest discussion without pouncing all over me.  But, I'm feeling talkative today so here goes.  A lot of you know more on this stuff than I do.  Frankly, the discussions that pop up on cheating make things sound much worse than they are.  So even though its taboo to admit what you know, any other takers?  AND I WILL HONESTLY TELL YOU I HAVEN'T HAD ANY OF THIS DONE TO MY OWN KID'S CALVES SINCE THEY"VE STARTED SO DON'T JUMP TO CONCLUSIONS.

AIRING

I have never seen a calf show up at a show with air in him.  I'm sure there are some, but they are few and far between.  Airing has been around for at least the 20+ years I've been around showing.  The theory behind is it to increase fat under the skin.  It isn't typically done right before the show.  I'll be honest and admit I've seen it done many times - as I'm sure a lot of others on this forum have.  I lump it in the category of one of those things that really doesn't work.  That being said, it isnt' horribly inhumane (washing them in cold weather bothers them more).  The comparison between a steers hide and human skin just isn't accurate.  We are pretty arbitrary on what we consider inhumane.  I'll guarantee you cosmetic dehorning hurts them a whole lot worse and probably castration as well.  Stop and think about it - if it was that painful how would you ever get a calf showed that had been hurt that bad?  The most painful thing I've ever seen done to one was back in the days of the big balled tails.  I remember being made to break my calf's tail on purpose so you could get the ball up higher.  That hurt them.  As far as long term "cruelty", I still think slick shearing steers like we do in Texas is pretty rough on them.  We do it in February.  We've learned how to mitigate it, but its not pleasant.  All for the sake of making things more fair.

Airing is still widely used as a means to make cattle put on more fat.  As I mentioned, I don't think it really works.  If it did, feedlots would have gotten it approved because its just as fast and easy as the other things that are commonly done to cattle.  People don't show up at the show with calves with air under their skin.  They look ridiculous after they are first done (it goes completely away in 2-3 days) and sound even worse (the hollow drum reference previously brought up is accurate).  Airing isn't harming the food supply in any way or injuring the animals.  Again, I don't think it should be done and I don't think it works.  Most rulebooks now explicitly ban it.  My familiarity comes from the days years ago when it wasn't mentioned at all.

OTHER STUFF (OIL, GRAPHITE, ETC) UNDER THE SKIN

I don't know how someone can do this and not seriously harm the animal to the point that is counterproductive to the goal.  I've never known anyone that did it, and I don't believe its ever been common at all.  Unlike air, there is no way your not going to get caught.

CLENBUTEROL AND OTHER MUSCLE ENHANCERS

As most know, it was commonly used in the early 90s.  The Feds decided to shut it down so it got shut down.  Denver should  be applauded for making a public stand on those caught.  I think its a non-issue now as are most other unathorized muscle enhancers.  My primary reason for this belief - there is plenty of legal, thoroughly tested stuff that works better.  Also, most steers have plenty of muscle now naturally - its the structure and look that get you.  I'm sure there are things out there I don't know about, but I don't see how they could be that helpful.

TRANQUILIZERS

I'll argue till I'm blue in the face that there isn't a thing wrong with using them as long they aren't still in the system when a calf is slaughtered.  I'm sorry, but if its ok for a vet or embryo tech to use it on one to make their job easier then there is nothing inherently wrong with using it on a kid's calf for the same reason.  It's not an advantage - your calf actually looks worse.  But to help a little kid with a calf that is scared its first time out of the barn is not evil or harmful to anyone.

DIURETICS
Lasix is still commonly used at shows that don't have weigh-backs.  It's too easy to get it out of their system for drug tests.  Judges could stop this one easily if they would just do it.  It's quite easy to tell the difference between a 12-1300 lb calf and a 15-1600 pounder.  The good part is that because it does clear the system quickly, its not a residue threat for potential consumers.

I still find it humorous that nobody ever accuses the last place calves of cheating but the ones that win always do.  There are probably people trying more stuff on marginal calves trying to just get them in a sale than the ones that know they are in the running and stand a high probability of getting tested.  Our rules are pretty strict and its pretty hard not to get caught if you are doing something illegal.  

I also find it utterly evil and distasteful to want to form a lynch mob against someone else's kid.  Nobody's kids are perfect and no adults are perfect.  You may follow every rule related to showing, but odds are you or your kids are going to stumble on something in life.  I bet you would appreciate a little compassion and restraint from officials and the public if you find yourself in an unfortunate situation.  Children that commit heinous violent crimes are afforded more legal protection than what many of you propose for kids involved in improper acts in showing.  For no other reason than someone is p***d that their kid didn't win.  People can fall back on the holier than thou defense all they want but its really that simple.  I'll never understand why people assume that their own animals are so much better than someone else's that the only reason they could possibly be beat is because someone else cheated.  

Folks need to learn (although I realize they never will) to do the best you can, follow the WRITTEN rules, and enjoy showing cattle for the sake of doing it.  But those are generally the people that stick with it and have been doing it a long time and get accused of cheating.  The reason those people win is because they are better at it - because they've spent years (or probably decades) learning how by taking care of their own, helping their own kids, and even their grandkids!  It that simple.  People can gripe and make fun of "40 year old 4-Hers", but to me that is the epitome of what the whole program is supposed to be!  Spending time with your family on livestock.

 

cattlejunky

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dragon lady said:
cattlejunky said:
Well said Show Heifer I am with you all the way!!!!!!!  Clenbuterol is a steroid.  I beleive it muscles up the calves like it does wrestlers.  Some people will do whatever they can to win.  I am just glad I can look my kid in the eye and say we win the right way!  There is no better satisfaction than that.  I say if they do not want to suspend the family that they need to be under a microsope for the entire year.  EX:  Calves checked monthly for air, oil, drug etc...,  at the fair drug tested and a fitting monitor assigned to them all day.  The next year they will be randomly monitored with no notice.  It will cost a little and it will take some time, but you could probably get a vet to volunteer their time.  I would pay a little into a fund for this to happen.

CLENBUTEROL IS NOT A STEROID - IT IS A BETA 2 ADRENERGIC AGONIST (this means it mimics the action of various drugs/chemicals on the a beta receptor) - it is LEGALLY used only for treatment of airway disease in horses.

[size=10pt][size=10pt]IT IS ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY AGAINST THE LAW TO USE CLENBUTEROL IN ANY FOOD ANIMAL - YOU WILL GO TO JAIL.



Thanks for the clarification DL.  I thought it was a steriod. 


As for the real topic
I AGREE WITH YOU SHOW HEIFER 100%
fluffer (WELCOME) - good points - I too believe that eventually the scum get theirs
  ;D
 

DL

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chambero
Guess I disagree with you
Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
Just because you think it is OK to use tranquilizers doesn't mean it isn't against the law as well as an unfair advantage
Just because people didn't think  about the last place steer having been tampered with, doesn't mean he wasn't
Whenever there is money involved people do bad things
It is fairly appalling when the bad things happen to an animal and the child is punished
Just because the parents or other adults are responsible for the bad things doesn't mean the kids is blameless or unknowing
People who cheat now will cheat forever - there is really not much in the way of repentance here - it is a pattern of behavior
Apparently the rules are made to be broken or ignored and the reason we give is that a kid will suffer
If the concern is that the kid has been labeled and unfairly punished maybe someone should work with the kid or he should do community service or something creative - there will be no impact on his life if he is allowed to merrily go about cheating

There was a lot of talk on another board about a judge who was excellent and did a great job with the kids - but had been banned for cheating as a kid - do you think that had an affect to make him the person he (apparently) is today?
 

chambero

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DL:

You know I respect your opinons.  A few additions:

1.  I know there could be things that go on that I don't know about.  You like to base things on hard evidence.  My point is that there is not documented evidence of widespread use of illegal drugs in steers.  There just isn't.  I wish shows would publish anonymous test results.  One of my friends really is the official vet for one of our majors.  He won't discuss names, but he does assure me that there are very few positive drug tests - and they usually are for antibiotics that didn't clear a calf's system.  There is more money in showing down here than anywhere.  I just don't believe there is that much being hidden. 

2.  Its against the law to slaughter an animal with some of the tranquilizers (made for livestock) in their system.  There is a difference.  How is it against the law for a 6 month old heifer to be given Ace before she goes to her first show but it is not against the law for a vet to give that same animal a dose of Ace when he is collecting her? 

3.  I disagree with you on the once a cheater always a cheater.  We've talked before about how it is much easier to know the technicalities now than it was 5-10 years ago now.

4.  The kid you are referring to wasn't banned from anything except that particular show.  He was winning major shows in Texas 30 days later.

 

DL

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chambero said:
DL:

You know I respect your opinons.  A few additions:

1.  I know there could be things that go on that I don't know about.  You like to base things on hard evidence.  My point is that there is not documented evidence of widespread use of illegal drugs in steers.  There just isn't.  I wish shows would publish anonymous test results.  One of my friends really is the official vet for one of our majors.  He won't discuss names, but he does assure me that there are very few positive drug tests - and they usually are for antibiotics that didn't clear a calf's system.  There is more money in showing down here than anywhere.  I just don't believe there is that much being hidden. 

2.  Its against the law to slaughter an animal with some of the tranquilizers (made for livestock) in their system.  There is a difference.  How is it against the law for a 6 month old heifer to be given Ace before she goes to her first show but it is not against the law for a vet to give that same animal a dose of Ace when he is collecting her? 

3.  I disagree with you on the once a cheater always a cheater.  We've talked before about how it is much easier to know the technicalities now than it was 5-10 years ago now.

4.  The kid you are referring to wasn't banned from anything except that particular show.  He was winning major shows in Texas 30 days later.

chambero - and vice versa!
Acepromazine is not approved for use in food animals - it is not a tranquilizer made for livestock - all use of ace in cattle is extra label.

The whole legal drug use is a bit of a sticky wicket - and I have not been able to get straight answers from "the gov't" - if you follow the letter of the law the use of any drug in an extralabel manner is against the law if AMDUCA and ELDU are not followed. One of the criteria is that the ELDU of drugs is required for therapeutic reasons only (ie not production, not show) - it is hard to argue that either of these fit that criteria and therefore technically they are both illegal. I personally have never worked with a vet who used tranquilizers to flush cows......

I do agree with you that it is easier to know the technicalities now, however I think there is a difference between not knowing/understanding the rules and cheating and I am not sure the latter usually repent 
;)
 

knabe

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i could see both chambero and dl in the movie "12 angry men"

your comments on this thread are outstanding, and if i'm charged with a crime, i would hope to have your equals on my jury.
 

AAOK

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I'm with Chambero on this one, and also sticking with my stance of punishment at that one show only!  Comparing cheating at a Junior calf show to the  NFL, MLB, or NASCAR is absurd.  If the FFA or 4-H were to have  rules at the National level to remove or reprimand the guilty party, it would actually make sense that they could decide how far the punishment would extend.  Of course, there would have to be some sort of court procedure to prove intent, as well as guilt beyond reasonable doubt.
 

DLD

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Once again, Chambero nails it. An awful lot of people that have really strong opinions (negative ones) about cheating in junior shows really aren't around them that much, and most of the ones that are, are just bitter because they don't do better (usually because they don't put enough effort into it).
 

chambero

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An example of innocent cheating "almost":

Last year one of the calves we sold to a local kid got sick after Fort Worth (kid was too lazy to dry the calf after washing glue out then hauled calf home in wet weather just above freezing).  Calf (that kid keeps in our barn) gets pneumonia (surprise).  We've got about a month before next major.  I research which antibiotics we can use and still pass withdrawal test (Draxxin is good one for this).  Calf gets pretty good size knot after shot.  Dad loads calf up and takes to the vet.  Dad comes home with a squirt bottle full of DMSO & something else.  I come home and ask what's in the bottle.  We nearly had a problem - due to something a vet prescribed.  The only reason I caught it beforehand (at least after only one treatment) is because I pay way more than normal attention to this kind of thing.  The rules on drug use are way too complicated if the vets themselves don't understand them.

I deal with one vet that knows the ins and outs of showing.  Most don't and couldn't care less.  I've seen those vets use ace, rompum, and other stuff on cows that were being a nuisance or otherwise testy.  How in the world is your average person supposed to know the vet is doing something technically wrong?  Why in the world should they even care?  You are taught to trust your doctors.  And I do trust them to apply common sense in how and what they use to take of my animals. 

I just think folks get way too carried away with the idea that cheating is ruining things.  We all "know" Barry Bonds used stuff.  You know what - he was one heck of a baseball player before he did.  All of these things people cheat with won't make a good calf great.  That calf was great to begin with, but we think they must have cheated to get there.  I just don't believe that's the case.  Our shows have pretty stringent rules with drug tests and carcass inspections that are quite thorough and can detect chemicals at part per billion levels.  Your average "dumb" cattle jock isn't smart enough to beat those tests.  If professional cyclists can't beat them with millions of dollars and real doctors backing them, "XXX Club Calves" certainly isn't getting by with it.  There is no evidence that the shows are just sweeping it under the rug either (although Fort Worth's habit of sending the Grand Champion steer to live out his life at the zoo kind of makes you go hmm...)

DL - I really do appreciate the efforts you make to educate folks on what they technically are supposed to do/not do.  I didn't realize the level of some of the technicalities involved before you started posting on these issues.  The more knowledge the better to help keep us all and our kids out of trouble.

I just think the idea of cheating is largely a crutch that is too easy for people to lean on.  We are probably just getting outworked - hopefully mostly by the kids actually showing the animals.  There are probably more liberties taken with where animals are residing than any of the other rules from what I know.  And of course birth dates are commonly fudged.  And there isn't a way to prove it (other than common sense) so it doesn't do a lot of good to give yourself ulcers over it.

I really believe we need to keep some level of reason about our reactions to these kinds of things in the grand scheme of things.  Stop and read the newspapers about the mess kids get in the middle of (violent crimes, abandoning unwanted babies, making themselves targets for predators, etc).  Even if a kid isn't showing up at the barn often enough or if they are "trying" a little too hard, they at least aren't getting in that kind of trouble.  And at least those parents that are wanting it a little too badly are at least spending time with their kids and doing something together.  Too many parents couldn't tell you where their kids are or so absorbed in their own lives they don't care what they are doing.  Those are the ones that should be tarred and feathered and run up the flag pole for public humiliation.
 
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