How far to go w/ cheaters?

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DL

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DLD said:
Once again, Chambero nails it. An awful lot of people that have really strong opinions (negative ones) about cheating in junior shows really aren't around them that much, and most of the ones that are, are just bitter because they don't do better (usually because they don't put enough effort into it).

whoa there DLD - now there is a strong opinion! I don't show. I don't cheat. I work hard. I have pretty strong opinions (imagine that!) - lumping everyone with a strong opinion together as someone who didn't win doesn't cut it with me - but that is a pretty common response hmmmm

I also agree chambero that a kid shouldn't be punished because his or her vet is stuppid - it is the vets responsibility to know and follow the law - imagine how deilghted the people who went to Louisville were to find out their vet didn't do the right testing so they were sent back to MI - but I also think people need to be aware of the laws and rules and when it doesn't make sense ask questions -

 

DLD

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dragon lady said:
DLD said:
Once again, Chambero nails it. An awful lot of people that have really strong opinions (negative ones) about cheating in junior shows really aren't around them that much, and most of the ones that are, are just bitter because they don't do better (usually because they don't put enough effort into it).

whoa there DLD - now there is a strong opinion! I don't show. I don't cheat. I work hard. I have pretty strong opinions (imagine that!) - lumping everyone with a strong opinion together as someone who didn't win doesn't cut it with me - but that is a pretty common response hmmmm



Please note DL, that I did not say all, I said an awful lot. And perhaps I didn't word that clearly enough - let me try it again...
An awful lot of the people that have really strong opinions (negative ones) about cheating in junior shows either aren't really around it that much, or most of the ones that are involved in junior shows are just bitter because they don't do better (usually because they don't put enough effort into it).

I certainly didn't mean to imply that you don't work hard. You just said yourself that you don't show - all I'm saying is that people like myself and Chambero and many others here are directly involved in it, pretty much constantly, and that we're probably more aware of the true extent of  "cheating". It's just not as prevalent as many folks on the outside seem to think it is.

 

DL

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I have another thought on this whole issue - and I agree with you DLD that you and chambero are in the thick of things and probably more involved/aware than many - and certainly one bad apple makes a big splash and taints more than a few. And I also am aware that when the judge doesn't place you (generic you) where you want to be almost everyone talks - but there is another issue of responsibility

We are responsible for our stock, for their welfare, food, health etc. We are also responsible for our kids. And I believe that if we think someone is cheating (and there is a way to prove it or disprove it) then we need to be responsible to take the appropriate action....example

word was that a few years back that the State Fair CH steer wasn't who he was suppose to be and actually had done some winning in another state. State fair has both EID (of they changed it somehow) and DNA - everyone was talking - so when I asked why somebody didn't check the DNA I was told that either (a) people didn't want to get involved or (b) that would involve lodging a formal protest so (c) in my book if you aren't willing to step up to the plate you should shut your mouth
;) ;) ;)
 

DLD

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dragon lady said:
I have another thought on this whole issue - and I agree with you DLD that you and chambero are in the thick of things and probably more involved/aware than many - and certainly one bad apple makes a big splash and taints more than a few. And I also am aware that when the judge doesn't place you (generic you) where you want to be almost everyone talks - but there is another issue of responsibility

We are responsible for our stock, for their welfare, food, health etc. We are also responsible for our kids. And I believe that if we think someone is cheating (and there is a way to prove it or disprove it) then we need to be responsible to take the appropriate action....example

word was that a few years back that the State Fair CH steer wasn't who he was suppose to be and actually had done some winning in another state. State fair has both EID (of they changed it somehow) and DNA - everyone was talking - so when I asked why somebody didn't check the DNA I was told that either (a) people didn't want to get involved or (b) that would involve lodging a formal protest so (c) in my book if you aren't willing to step up to the plate you should shut your mouth
;) ;) ;)

Yep.
 

afhm

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Chambero you and I are on the exact same page.  The boy caught in Denver was suppose to be banned for life, but Denver didn't stick to thier decision.  He and his family showed open Simmys there since that incident and he was also on a college livestock judging team there that I think won the contest that year.
 

Joe Boy

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In our county a parent and child signs a paper saying they will not use any illegal substances or break any rules for any shows in the state of Texas.  Therefore, if a child/parent gets caught we have every legal right to enforce the penalty even at our local level.  We have not had one violator since the document was required.  Also, since the document is in the County Agents office and is legally binding for any major or local show in the state of Texas, all penalties could be enforced if the local board so chose.  By the way, this is true of "No Pass, No play"  rules too.  If a student is not qualified to show because they failed a class at school for that 6 weeks they cannot show.
 

Joe Boy

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cattlejunky said:
OMG! Cowz that is awful.  I would have killed whoever did it!  My husband would have probably beaten me to them.  what happened and was anyone punished?  I know I would have had no composure!!!!  People make me so SICK.  That is CRIMINAL!!  I am ticked from just reading it. You are right on the shows are suppose to be for kids and their families.  It cracks me up that we had 13 (nationally known) professional fitters at our county fair this summer.  Absolutely ridiculous!   

The authorities in a major city in Texas are looking for someone who has entered a project barn several times and some goats, sheep and pigs have been injured and 4 lost to some cruel person's meanness.  I hope they are caught.  If we had the law "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth," such a person could be in a world of hurt.  We had someone feed a lead rope to a champion sheep and it died.  The vet posted it and there was the lead rope.  We did not have a lead halter that color.  There were people always going to see our projects when we were not around.  Once while we were at a show, one of our animals was stolen.  People will answer one day to a much higher authority.
 

Joe Boy

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cowz said:
cattlejunky said:
OMG! Cowz that is awful.  I would have killed whoever did it!  My husband would have probably beaten me to them.  what happened and was anyone punished?  I know I would have had no composure!!!!  People make me so SICK.  That is CRIMINAL!!  I am ticked from just reading it. You are right on the shows are suppose to be for kids and their families.  It cracks me up that we had 13 (nationally known) professional fitters at our county fair this summer.  Absolutely ridiculous!   

I wont say who it is ...  but we are very careful.  We never leave the grounds until we see him go.   There was no proof, nobody saw it.   We just chalked it up to being too trusting and naive.   We just try keep someone watching the cattle at all times.   But you have to sleep sometime.

Today we need hidden cameras.....
 

knabe

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cameras are effective if they are not hidden and many times don't have to be actually running to produce a desired outcome.
 

cowz

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With our luck, some one would just steal the camera! ;D
 

Jill

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Ok, I have tried really hard to stay out of this one because I think it is one of those topics that we just argue for arguements sake, it isn't for a learning experience, and none of us is going to back down from whatever position we feel is correct, however, for all of you hard butts that want to crucify these kids and their families I hope that someday you are wrongly accused of something you didn't do so you will know the heartache and humiliation of being called a cheat by every one you know even though your not.  I hope it cost you thousands of dollars and you or your child loose all the scholarship money and awards they have worked a lifetime to achieve.  For the rest of your life, the legacy that will haunt you is that you are a cheat, whether you are or not.  Not everyting in life is black and white, this is a cut throat business at times and whether we like it or not, sometimes bad things happen to good people.  I do know that airing still happens, I know that steers fail drug test, but in most cases no one has any proof of when, where or how it happened, my animals are in my care, but I can tell you ours aren't watched 24/7 and I would bet most aren't, you would have a hard time sueing with no facts.

As to the Vick reference, it just goes to show the value we place on our pets.  I don't know how many athletes in the past couple of years that have been taken in for DUI (some have numerous offenses), drug offenses, spousal abuse, and are still playing, for most they never even missed a game.  Vick had an animal welfare issue against him and that rallied the public against him,  and he broke the law, that is why he isn't playing, not because someone accused him of cheating. 
 

AAOK

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Jill said:
Ok, I have tried really hard to stay out of this one because I think it is one of those topics that we just argue for arguements sake, it isn't for a learning experience, and none of us is going to back down from whatever position we feel is correct, however, for all of you hard butts that want to crucify these kids and their families I hope that someday you are wrongly accused of something you didn't do so you will know the heartache and humiliation of being called a cheat by every one you know even though your not.  I hope it cost you thousands of dollars and you or your child loose all the scholarship money and awards they have worked a lifetime to achieve.  For the rest of your life, the legacy that will haunt you is that you are a cheat, whether you are or not.  Not everyting in life is black and white, this is a cut throat business at times and whether we like it or not, sometimes bad things happen to good people.   I do know that airing still happens, I know that steers fail drug test, but in most cases no one has any proof of when, where or how it happened, my animals are in my care, but I can tell you ours aren't watched 24/7 and I would bet most aren't, you would have a hard time sueing with no facts.

As to the Vick reference, it just goes to show the value we place on our pets.  I don't know how many athletes in the past couple of years that have been taken in for DUI (some have numerous offenses), drug offenses, spousal abuse, and are still playing, for most they never even missed a game.  Vick had an animal welfare issue against him and that rallied the public against him,  and he broke the law, that is why he isn't playing, not because someone accused him of cheating.   


Way to go Jill!!!! (clapping) (clapping) (clapping)
(clapping) (dog) (clapping) (dog)
 

DL

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Jill - I agree with you on several points - you certainly showed more restraint than I in regards to responding  ;D I think that if there is evidence of cheating the cheater should be punished - I was not referring to the rantings and ravings of those who may find themselves not winning but do not have the ba**s to actually demand an inquiry (ie check the DNA etc) - talk is cheap and there is and always will be lots of talk.

AAOK - you used the word vindictive - seems to fit this scenerio as well but here you are cheering  :eek:

Jill - I find the observation you made about Vick interesting and something I have thought about too - it also says tons about what we find acceptable in our "sports hero's" as well as what we think of our pets it is ok to beat your wife, drive drunk,m get into brawls as long as you are good at the game - it is certainly an interesting time to be observing things and it seems our values are often skewed in the wrong direction

I think the bottom line should be if we all do the best we can and we do it honestly and with good intent we should be able to sleep at night - purple ribbon or not - and I think that is all we can ask of ourselves and our friends ...I hope you have a nice night and thank you for your almost always thoughtful coments... ;)
 

Show Heifer

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Well, I stick to my guns on this one. And I won't apologize. 
IF they are found guilty they should punished and punished HARD. And those that have mentioned lawsuits filed from the cheaters to avoid punishment, well, I sayits about time the innocent file a lawsuit against the same cheaters and those that will not fill charges against them.  I am SICK and TIRED of these cheaters that brag about it and get away with it because they yell "I'm gonna sue you if you ban me...." Nanananaaaa.
And I have NEVER said only winners cheat, hell, losers cheat all the time and should be punished equally. Just like all those $50,000 steers that get sold and most (if not all) of them are NEVER heard from again. Just because you win doesn't make you a cheater, and just because you lose doesn't make you holier than thou.
But, cheating is cheating. Make an example of two or three families, and I am willing to bet the incidences and accusations will deminish dramically.
If rules are not followed and there are no consequences, then I say (and I have said this many times before) get rid of the rules. Make it a free for all. Level the playing field so that those with morals and ethics can "cheat" along with everyone else.  I am willing to bet (seems like I'm a bettin woman tonight!!) those cheaters will soon cry foul due to the fact that someone, somewhere will "cheat" better than they can and will get their butts handed to them and then all of a sudden a light bulb will come on and they will want the rules back.
So, either inforce the rules or get rid of them. Simple.
 

frostback

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You guys are forgetting the most important part of the legal system. INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. About the only infraction that can be proven without question is switching of calves with DNA proof. All the other they did this or that BS is too hard to prove, so no show will or can touch that one if they want to have another show that next year, instead of giving all the money to lawyers.
 

DL

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I think maybe we beat this one to death - anyone want to move on? (welcome)
 

chambero

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Yep - ready to move on except for one to Joe Boy.

Animal projects kept in school ag barns are big time targets for hoodlums in the schools.  I furnish stalls for kids in our town so the calves we sell to local kids don't have to live up at our school barn.  Henrietta and Nocona have both had terrible incidents of thugs hurting other kids animals just for the sport of it.  Most of the time they've been caught and the schools have done a good job of making their life not very pleasant from that point on.  Still, its impossible to keep it from happening again.  That one gets my dander up.
 

AAOK

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dragon lady said:


AAOK - you used the word vindictive - seems to fit this scenerio as well but here you are cheering  :eek:


I'm ready to let it go after I address this:  I'm cheering Jill's rant about the Hard Butts who want to crucify the Kids and their families.  I too believe in Innocent until proven guilty, thus my use of the term "vindictive" about those same Hard Butts.  Again, Live and Let Die!!!!
 

DL

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Biggest problem with us is we all want to have the last word (clapping) (clapping)
 

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