How far to go w/ cheaters?

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red

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Jan 20, 2007
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LaRue, Ohio
This is a topic pulled from several other boards. Thought it was a good one to discuss. The senerio is as follows:
A junior shower has been caught w/ a tampered steer. Let's say for example air injected under the skin. This was caught at a state show. They have been banned from state shows for a number of years. How far does the ban go? Does their county get involved & ban them too? Are they banned from all shows in their state for a period of time? Should they ever be allowed to show? Does the ban cover the junior or all the siblings & the entire family too? Just curious on your thoughts!
Also, say for this example the facts are clear cut. They have been caught red handed so to speak.

Red
 

SWMO

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Jul 27, 2007
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Carthage MO
Unless you have specific rules at the county level, I don't see how you can ban anyone from showing.  Wouldn't that open the fair board up to a law suit?  You might win under the ethics rules that the 4-H have but what does it cost in terms of lawyers fees?  Unfortunately alot of law suits are settled out of court (even by insurance companies that know they are right) because the court costs, lawyers fees and bad publicity exceed the cost of just paying the claim.

Fair Board members are liable for many things that happen during the course of the county fair.  If the fair board doesn't carry enough liability insurance, each board member then becomes personally liable.  So you can kinda understand why many are not willing to enforce rules and ethics.

  If you catch them cheating at your event, it would be easy to ban them for a period of time if that time is stated in writing.  I don't believe that our county has a specific punishment for cheating in writing.  Isn't it sad that we have to consider these things at all?

How was the injecting air under the skin caught?  Ultrasound?  My understanding of this procedure is that it has to happen early enough for the pockets to fill up with fat.  Otherwise when you wash the animal it sounds like a hollow log.

Unfortunately, You can never legislate morality! It must be taught by parents.  Hence cheating parents = cheating kids. :(
 

itk

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KS
This will cost me some karma but I don't think the county should be able to punish the exhibitor at all if the infraction happened at a state show. I think the county can only enforce violations if they happen at that level. It is also hard to prove guilt in these instances. The only way to prove that the family actually did this is if a witness comes forward and that is very unlikely. For all we know someone came and sabotaged the calf in tie outs the night before. Go to any major show and there are always a few people sleeping in tie outs making sure their animals don't get messed with (or maybe waiting for the right time to mess with other peoples calves.)
 

DLD

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sw Oklahoma
If the county already has in place a policy that they will follow the findings and decisions of the state show, then they can enforce the same suspension. If they don't have such a rule already, they can't just jump in and make one retroactive to suspend this exhibitor. 4H or FFA, whichever organization the exhibitor was showing under may have a policy that they may suspend membership and/or competitive activities of those that have been disqualified/suspended from a show, which should extend to their county show.

No, I don't think suspension of one child should extend to their siblings. I realize that almost certainly whoever performed the illegal activity, or influenced the exhibitor to do so probably has the same influence over siblings and their projects, but you have to give the siblings the benefit of the doubt. At worst, I've seen these things end in divorce and whole families going seperate ways, at best maybe the cheaters learned their lesson.
 

DL

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ITK - I gave you a karma point because I didn't want you to worry that your karma might go down if your opinion didn't fit with the majority ;D
 

shortyjock89

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Injecting air under the skin gives the steer a more full appearance either in their ass or to "fill them out". 
 

afhm

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If you didn't break any rules at the county then you should be eligeable at the county.  Some major shows state in their rules that if you are banned at another show that you are ineligeble to show at their show.  They don't seem to follow that very well, i could name several people who were banned at one that showed at another.
 

renegade

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Caldwell, Idaho
So they just take a syringe and put air between skin and muscle to make the animal look better? First it seems like that would be easy to see and wouldn't it be painful to the animal????? ???
 

Show Heifer

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Ok, lets just get this out of the way....yes, I am a hard butt when it comes to cheating....so here it goes...
First if it was done to a STEER, it was tampering with the food supply. Period. Every junior member, and I believe their parents sign a form stating they will follow the withdraw times, humanely treat their animals, not use illegal drugs, etc....so yes, punish them at the county level!! If they can't show at state, they can't show at the county level, nor should they be allowed to show at ANY junior sanctioned show.  With todays age of computers it wouldn't be hard to share that info amoungst those that need it, or ask for it! I am a firm believer that once a cheater, always a cheater.
Now,for the question of exactly who to bann. How many kids (lets say 9-13 years old) can actually air a steer? Or pump a steer? Or get their hands on clenbuterol?  So, that means their parents were involved. So if they let one of their kids cheat I am guessing all their kids will get equal opportunity to cheat. So I say, ban the family.  Also, if they want to point the finger at a steer jock, wonderful, I bet the other families will stay away from that particular jock, IF AN EXAMPLE IS MADE OF THE FAMILY THAT DEALT WITH THEM.
For how long? This is actually a tough one for me to answer. (Imagine that!!) I guess it depends on the offense. If it was illegal drugs entering the food chain I would say permantly. FOREVER. If it was for false papers, 2 years first offense, 5 the second, and forever on the third.  If it is for inhumane treatment (needling, airing, oiling etc)of an animal, I say forever.
I have NO (and I do mean NO) tolerance for cheaters. Or for the people that allow it to happen.  :mad: :mad:
The animal is under the care and supervision of the family that owns it. They are responsible. Even if they didn't actually do the deed, they are responsible due to the fact they were negligent in their diligence. (I'm mad now, I can't spell to begin with!!!)
Its about time for the honest folks to step up to the plate and DEMAND (yes it won't be pleasant) that the cheaters are dealt with harshly. I bet you would be surprised after the first several families were publicly banned how that would deter future cheaters....
As for the lawsuits that get threatened, remember the best defense is the best offense (has anyone told Michigan football team that???) !!! Sue them back.
And renegade: It does hurt the animal....if you don't think it does, just try pulling YOUR skin off of the muscle that is below, or try pulling the muscle away from the bone and connective tissue.....IT HURTS LIKE HELL.
 

cattlejunky

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Well said Show Heifer I am with you all the way!!!!!!!  Clenbuterol is a steroid.  I beleive it muscles up the calves like it does wrestlers.  Some people will do whatever they can to win.  I am just glad I can look my kid in the eye and say we win the right way!  There is no better satisfaction than that.  I say if they do not want to suspend the family that they need to be under a microsope for the entire year.  EX:  Calves checked monthly for air, oil, drug etc...,  at the fair drug tested and a fitting monitor assigned to them all day.  The next year they will be randomly monitored with no notice.  It will cost a little and it will take some time, but you could probably get a vet to volunteer their time.  I would pay a little into a fund for this to happen.
 

Rocky Hill Simmental

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Missouri
Nobody should do anything with a steer except wash him, trim his hair, and give him his feed. They shouldn't be doing anything that requires a withdrawl time, because they're going into the food supply. If someone gets caught doing this I think they should lose their premiums, be ineligiable for sales, and be sent home. Let's try to keep beef safe to eat - animals rights activists already look down on showing livestock, it's not give them something else to complain about.
 

cowz

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itk said:
This will cost me some karma but I don't think the county should be able to punish the exhibitor at all if the infraction happened at a state show. I think the county can only enforce violations if they happen at that level. It is also hard to prove guilt in these instances. The only way to prove that the family actually did this is if a witness comes forward and that is very unlikely. For all we know someone came and sabotaged the calf in tie outs the night before. Go to any major show and there are always a few people sleeping in tie outs making sure their animals don't get messed with (or maybe waiting for the right time to mess with other peoples calves.)

It is so sad that we feel like we have to feel like we have to sleep in the tie outs, but that is a true, true statement.  This actually happened to us.  My son's heifer had been winning a lot.  We got to the tie outs at 5 am the morning before the state fair show and she had a broken tail, a huge swollen hock (Base ball anyone) and a wild demeanor.  Our stall signs had expletives written on them.  We know exactly who did this.  These shows are supposed to be for the kids and supposed to be enjoyable.  Things like this just take the joy out of it sometimes.
 

cattlejunky

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OMG! Cowz that is awful.  I would have killed whoever did it!  My husband would have probably beaten me to them.  what happened and was anyone punished?  I know I would have had no composure!!!!  People make me so SICK.  That is CRIMINAL!!  I am ticked from just reading it. You are right on the shows are suppose to be for kids and their families.  It cracks me up that we had 13 (nationally known) professional fitters at our county fair this summer.  Absolutely ridiculous! 
 

cowz

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Ok, I went to BW and read the whole thread.  How sad.  I know why the local fairboard does not want to punish the kid.  Let's blame the 30 and 40 year old
4-Hers.  If people who are too old to show would spend their time and energy being one of the local teachers and leaders for the beef kids, they could do something positive for all.  

Instead, some of these old jocks just keep finding more bad tricks, find some cute kid to show them for them.  Trust me, there are a lot of calves who dont spend more than a couple of weeks at the kiddo's house.  Makes me very angry.   BUT....it is up to the FFA advisors and county extension offices to have the BACKBONE to do something about it.

Bad situation.  I know a family that hauls calves over 100 miles away, drops them off for a week to "have their feet trimmed".   They get a whole lot more service than a trim.  But, you can't prove it, so you just go on.......and see if you can beat them with good calves that have been feed well and clipped right.   If you do things the right way, you can sleep at night!
 

cowz

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cattlejunky said:
OMG! Cowz that is awful.  I would have killed whoever did it!  My husband would have probably beaten me to them.  what happened and was anyone punished?  I know I would have had no composure!!!!  People make me so SICK.  That is CRIMINAL!!  I am ticked from just reading it. You are right on the shows are suppose to be for kids and their families.  It cracks me up that we had 13 (nationally known) professional fitters at our county fair this summer.  Absolutely ridiculous!   

I wont say who it is ...  but we are very careful.  We never leave the grounds until we see him go.  There was no proof, nobody saw it.  We just chalked it up to being too trusting and naive.  We just try keep someone watching the cattle at all times.  But you have to sleep sometime.
 

fluffer

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Springfield, Ohio
You all have very good points ;).  My favorite saying is "what goes around comes around"  The people who cheat and win, when they get home, do you all really think they are really happy?  For me, I am happy to just do well and know that I am being 100% honest.  And that would include the birthdate on my cattle.  So many people forget that at the end of the day these cattle are supposed to be outstanding individuals that go out in the field and produce.  Regardless of if they are producing calves or beef.  I don't "play down" birthdates on my cattle, and if that means that we don't show them because they are 250 lbs lighter then the other calves that are supposedly born the same time then so be it.  At least I can sell producers bull and females that go out and produce in the field where it really matters.
Sorry,this may be a little off point- but it just came to my mind.

Just a side note too.  When someone is caught cheating is depends on how they are charged what the recourse is.  If it is a misdemeanor, or a felony, etc.  Personally I am with the "hard butts" ;D
 

DL

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cattlejunky said:
Well said Show Heifer I am with you all the way!!!!!!!  Clenbuterol is a steroid.  I beleive it muscles up the calves like it does wrestlers.  Some people will do whatever they can to win.  I am just glad I can look my kid in the eye and say we win the right way!  There is no better satisfaction than that.  I say if they do not want to suspend the family that they need to be under a microsope for the entire year.  EX:  Calves checked monthly for air, oil, drug etc...,  at the fair drug tested and a fitting monitor assigned to them all day.  The next year they will be randomly monitored with no notice.  It will cost a little and it will take some time, but you could probably get a vet to volunteer their time.  I would pay a little into a fund for this to happen.

CLENBUTEROL IS NOT A STEROID - IT IS A BETA 2 ADRENERGIC AGONIST (this means it mimics the action of various drugs/chemicals on the a beta receptor) - it is LEGALLY used only for treatment of airway disease in horses.

[size=10pt][size=10pt]IT IS ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY AGAINST THE LAW TO USE CLENBUTEROL IN ANY FOOD ANIMAL - YOU WILL GO TO JAIL.



As for the real topic
I AGREE WITH YOU SHOW HEIFER 100%
fluffer (WELCOME) - good points - I too believe that eventually the scum get theirs
  ;D
 
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