Kinnebar Leader 9th (Shorty people)

[OH Breeder]

I know Kinnebar Leader the 9th was a 21st son. Can anyone tell me what he was like? I had heard antedoctely that he was tick larger and more muscular. What types of cows would you use him on?

 

[justintime]

You may be right in that Leader 9th may have had a little more muscle than his sire Leader 21st, however, I don't remember him being a bigger framed bull. Mind you , it is over 30 years since they walked on earth and there are a few other things that happened 30 years ago that is a little fuzzy. Leader 9th left some great breeding cattle in Harvey Fulton's Kenmar herd in Manitoba. He was not used as much as he should have been in the Kenmar herd as he was leased to ABS and he was in stud for a few years. Harvey never used A.I. very much. As a side note, Harvey Fulton is now about 95 years old and he still has a pasture of cows that he checks and he takes a little grain to them as a treat.He still can recite the pedigrees of each cow in the pasture.  He has not had a drivers licence for several years, and he lives in town, about two miles from the farm, but it is not problem as he owns all the land from when his home is on the edge to town to the farm, so he has his own road that he uses. The Kenmar  herd is operated by Harvey's two sons and they have about 600 cows. They still have some purebred Shorthorns but most of the herd is crossbred with Shorthorn influence. Several of todays leading cow families  originated in the Kenmar herd, such as the Myrtle Bo's, Mayflower and Minnie lines, to name a few.
Leader 9th and Leader 21st were considered big framed at the time, but they would be moderate framed today. I  would use Leader 9th on bigger framed females  as I think the offspring would be considered moderate  today. Leader 9th's dam was sired by Lynnwood Reward, who was probably the biggest framed bull ever produced in the Lynnwood herd. He came to Saskatchewan to the Butte Lee herd owned by Edgar Philpott, as he was too big to be acceptable in the show ring at the time. Edgar is now also in his mid 90s and still says Lynnwood Reward may have been the best breeding bull he ever owned. He is convinced that he was a freak, as he was so much bigger than anything else that came from that line.He still regrets that he never collected semen on Reward.  Edgar still owns quite a fewpurebred Charolais cows that he has leased out. The Butte Lee prefix also produced many excellent Charolais cattle. I saw Edgar last winter, and he quickly pulled a picture of a heifer out of his pocket, and he said, " I think I might have found the next great one. What do you think?". It was a picture of a Charolais heifer he found in a small herd, and he had just purchased her.... quite amazing as not too many other people I know are that excited about purchasing a heifer when they are nearly a century old.

 

[OH Breeder]

Justintime,
That is great informatoin. Thank you for the history lesson. I really really like that stuff. Sometimes I will copy and cut and paste this stuff to an email and save it for later referance. Have you seen any pictures of him?

 

[red]

I really appreciate the people that can remeber the old genetics of any breed! Thank you so much Justintime!!

Red

 

[ELBEE]

JMO, Big Gene was 10X's the bull his sire was!

 

[iowa]

OH Breeder  I have a picture of Kinnebar Leader 9th and some other older bulls I found in an old Shorthorn Herdsire issue from 1981.  I will try to scan and post to this message.  I am in Washington DC on vacation this week so I will try to get that done this coming weekend.

 

[yuppiecowboy]

Leader 6th was more popular at the time wasnt he? If I remember right R Lee johnson was winning everything with Leader 6 cattle. My Dad claims Big Gene was the best big bull of the time. I have some ampules of a Big Gene son that I used in a flush recently. In about 280 days I can let you know how it worked. I expect I will either really like them or not at all.

 

[OH Breeder]

Leader 6th was more popular at the time wasnt he? If I remember right R Lee johnson was winning everything with Leader 6 cattle. My Dad claims Big Gene was the best big bull of the time. I have some ampules of a Big Gene son that I used in a flush recently. In about 280 days I can let you know how it worked. I expect I will either really like them or not at all.

What did you flush him too? I am interested to see. I recently had the ability to invest in a TPS Leader 21st heifer that is really cool. Not going to be a massive cow, but has got all the right parts.

 

[OH Breeder]

OH Breeder  I have a picture of Kinnebar Leader 9th and some other older bulls I found in an old Shorthorn Herdsire issue from 1981.  I will try to scan and post to this message.  I am in Washington DC on vacation this week so I will try to get that done this coming weekend.

I would really appreciate it. I am banking alot of old photos. It took me sometime, but I have TPS Leader photo and would like to find both Kinnebar and Red Knight for my collection. Really appreciate it. Enjoy your vacation!

 

[justintime]

I tend to agree that Leader 9th was a more consistent sire than Leader 21st was. I saw both bulls several times and Leader 21st always was the most impressive to the eye. If I have time tonight I will scan a picture of Leader 9th and put it on this site. I have to dig through my archives ( which contains thousands of sale catalogs and magazines from the 30s on. I have a complete set of Canadian Shorthorn Herd Books from 1876 to 1944, when they were discointinued. They show every animal that was registered through those years) Here is a picture of Leader 21st that I have on my puter. It is fuzzy but hope you can see it. My 3 Leader 21st embryos have just past 6 weeks of pregnancy and so far all seem fine. I am holding my breath and hoping that they make it past the 60 days as they are usually pretty sound after that.

 

[OH Breeder]

I tend to agree that Leader 9th was a more consistent sire than Leader 21st was. I saw both bulls several times and Leader 21st always was the most impressive to the eye. If I have time tonight I will scan a picture of Leader 9th and put it on this site. I have to dig through my archives ( which contains thousands of sale catalogs and magazines from the 30s on. I have a complete set of Canadian Shorthorn Herd Books from 1876 to 1944, when they were discointinued. They show every animal that was registered through those years) Here is a picture of Leader 21st that I have on my puter. It is fuzzy but hope you can see it. My 3 Leader 21st embryos have just past 6 weeks of pregnancy and so far all seem fine. I am holding my breath and hoping that they make it past the 60 days as they are usually pretty sound after that.

What did you flush to TPS Leader 21st? Whenver you get around to it thanks JustIn TIme!

 

[yuppiecowboy]

The bull I used was Kenmar Leader 21A. Ralph stirm owned him in the early seventies. i flushed him to an old Stinger cow that was out of a Harvey Fulton cow. Thought it might work.

 

[knabe]

not trying to stir up a hornets nest, but it seems like a figure 8 is going on here with the breeding (a good thing).  in california, shorthorns have pretty much disappeared, taken over by the typical angus.  does anyone think they will be making a comeback, and what is different, better this time.  guys out here say, "that cow would starve out on hills, the best cow is the smallest cow that will raise the largest calf, yet when i look at their herd, yes they do have small cows, kinda no muscle, 3 teats.  only one guy kinda stands out near me, at least on real pasture (unlike mine which is irrigated with improved grasses) that has larger cattle that look like a cross between simmental, charolais, using angus as a terminal mostly, with a chi bull for cleanup once in a while.  another guy has some decent charolais on irrigated and hayed ryegrass pasture.  he also has pinzgauer's.  or are the shorthorns being talked about here for a little more rain than we have in CA?  there are some out here, even on the land leased from the parks to graze the pastures that helps keep down the annual grasses and actually improve the habitat for the species in danger.  strangly, annual rye grass gives off the "right" enough gas to discourage one of our rare butterflies and they use cattle to keep it down.  the parks use a nice pic of a shorthon on their website, of course deep in grass.  they complained about cattle overgrazing, yet were amazed that all the drinking spots made in the 1880-1920's had california redlegged frogs, tiger salamanders.  now they actually look for guys to graze.  they don't yet pay you to graze. :'(  sorry for the lack of focus red.

 

[OH Breeder]

not trying to stir up a hornets nest, but it seems like a figure 8 is going on here with the breeding (a good thing).  in california, shorthorns have pretty much disappeared, taken over by the typical angus.  does anyone think they will be making a comeback, and what is different, better this time.  guys out here say, "that cow would starve out on hills, the best cow is the smallest cow that will raise the largest calf, yet when i look at their herd, yes they do have small cows, kinda no muscle, 3 teats.  only one guy kinda stands out near me, at least on real pasture (unlike mine which is irrigated with improved grasses) that has larger cattle that look like a cross between simmental, charolais, using angus as a terminal mostly, with a chi bull for cleanup once in a while.  another guy has some decent charolais on irrigated and hayed ryegrass pasture.  he also has pinzgauer's.  or are the shorthorns being talked about here for a little more rain than we have in CA?  there are some out here, even on the land leased from the parks to graze the pastures that helps keep down the annual grasses and actually improve the habitat for the species in danger.  strangly, annual rye grass gives off the "right" enough gas to discourage one of our rare butterflies and they use cattle to keep it down.  the parks use a nice pic of a shorthon on their website, of course deep in grass.  they complained about cattle overgrazing, yet were amazed that all the drinking spots made in the 1880-1920's had california redlegged frogs, tiger salamanders.  now they actually look for guys to graze.  they don't yet pay you to graze. :'(  sorry for the lack of focus red.

Huh? Help me understand this post Knabe....

 

[itk]

Here is what I know about shorthorns in Cali. To those of us in the mid-west we see it as a growing market so it is funny that a local sees the market shrinking. One of the high sellers in the WHR sell went to SLO, CA not to mention all of the K-Kim cattle that get sent that way. My whole California shorty perspective can be summed up in 2 words "Don Cardey", as long as he is in your state the shorthorn population will be fine. He is one of the (if not the most) interesting characters in the cattle biz plus a hell of a cattleman. By the way I know he has grazed his cattle in hill country before and gets along just fine.

 

[OH Breeder]

And he stands scatching his head.... ???

 

[justintime]

I tend to agree that Leader 9th was a more consistent sire than Leader 21st was. I saw both bulls several times and Leader 21st always was the most impressive to the eye. If I have time tonight I will scan a picture of Leader 9th and put it on this site. I have to dig through my archives ( which contains thousands of sale catalogs and magazines from the 30s on. I have a complete set of Canadian Shorthorn Herd Books from 1876 to 1944, when they were discointinued. They show every animal that was registered through those years) Here is a picture of Leader 21st that I have on my puter. It is fuzzy but hope you can see it. My 3 Leader 21st embryos have just past 6 weeks of pregnancy and so far all seem fine. I am holding my breath and hoping that they make it past the 60 days as they are usually pretty sound after that.

What did you flush to TPS Leader 21st? Whenver you get around to it thanks JustIn TIme!

We flushed our Shadybrook Presto 73G donor to Leader 21st. I have attached a picture of her taken two weeks ago. I sold 1/2 the flush to a breeder in Iowa and we implanted 3 here. Our 3 have stuck, at least so far.

 

[knabe]

i'll try.  shorthorns pretty much disappeared from bull sales a while ago.  in the push to increase the ribeye size and "quality" grade, they didn't compete with the gelbvieh's, simmental and limi's, and the angus for their supposed quality grade.  i'm trying to remember a pretty successful shorty breeder near modesto or something we used to always go for livestock judging.  i don't think it was cardey, i'll look that up.  cal poly dispersed their shorthorns a long time ago.  they used to breed heavily to dividend.  i gave red a scan of one of theheifers they sold for about 16 or 20k, direct dividend daughter.  i carved that one as a way of saying thanks to one of my teacher's on leather.  this was in the late 80's.  during this time, herefords were still doing well, bright brothers had a couple national champs.  one time they had a heifer get loose in denver, or the bull did, i can't remember, anyway, i think the bull was champ that year, and the next year  brights had national champ bull i think.  they had a heifer i think out of that bull that won the next year.  if i remember right, that cow had horns that didn't need weights, pretty rare, just like the old anxiety's, which as i said before, i mentioned in reasons and got castigated for.  ok, so this is going all over the place again.  good to see that it is viewed as a growing market because the whole "black" thing is getting a little ridiculous.  has anyone seen that jack in the box commercial they are getting sued for with a reference to the angus.  my wife said she thought it was a reference to anus, i thought it was angus was the butt of jokes for quality or something cause burger king sells the angus burgers and now jack has the sirloin burger, which i had and was better than the burger king, in my opinion.

when the brights had their herefords, there wasn't a frame size that was big enough.  good herds like the ted r. cooper herd, when margo hekin was there lost out.  they had some good pigmented bulls, both on the testicles and eyes, had decent performance and thickness.  it really sucks that the "winners" have to drive the equation so far.  as i remember, there was an angus bull , either called brinks or briggs or something, and he was advertised as the heaviest angus bull in the breed.  both of those breeds seemed like tractor trailers grazing on annual grasses and couldn't make it, and the moderate breeders kinda lost out for a short while.  i'm thinking cattle will go to far the other way with corn being so high.  hopefully not.

my comments about the cows i was seeing in the pastures was talking with a guy about what he was raising in the hills near where i live.  it just didn't add up with what he had in the pasture and what he was talking about.  he looked at one of my cows and said she would starve in the hills with her size and bag and we started discussing what he thought was working.  he wasn't interested in a breed, just the smallest cow that would raise the biggest calf, as just the smallest drought will send the cows to market.  none of this probably helps :-\

 

[sjcattleco]

I think we are going to be coming into a time where breed trends will not be a prominent as type trends..... Breeders that have gene pools that contain cattle that are balanced, functional, fertile, and efficient will be the guys out front... i do believe we are starting to see the end of days when you could  sell any black bull just based on hide color and quality... commercial producers will also be looking at enviroment / and herd management as a tool in buying seed stock... A simple rule to follow... Never buy cattle from a producer that has more and higher quality feed than you do.....

 

[knabe]

thanks for the translation Scott, how's your reading going?