Kinnebar Leader 9th (Shorty people)

[itk]

I think there is a connection between more masculine bulls passing on more femininity to their daughters. That being said I think shorthorn breeders use those type of bulls everyday people just don't use mature pictures of unclipped bulls to advertise. I remember being very impressed with the mature picture of Double Vision the first time it was published in the SC. But I would also venture to say that is if all we had to go off of was the mature picture of Red Riders Drive very few people would have used him.

 

[OH Breeder]

ITK,
Do you have any photos of DOuble Vision that you spoke of. I am now starting to save my SC because I am buying them from the 1950's.

 

[itk]

I don't remember for sure but I think it was in a herd reference issue from four or five years ago but I will try to find it. Here are a few bulls that are photoed in a pretty natural state that have been popular over the last few years: Gizmo, Durango, Mission, Red Rider 844. Many times breeders just don't want to confuse the customer. Sure mature pictures of bulls are nice but it would probally have a negative effect on semen sales if a new picture was used every year. Think if McDonald's all of a sudden got rid of the golden arches and changed trademarks every year, sure it would still be the same business but it wouldn't be as easy to recognize.

 

[knabe]

I think there is a connection between more masculine bulls passing on more femininity to their daughters.

Tthe problem is, way back, when the continentals came, there were some dystocia issues associated with the shoulder design of newborns out of growthy sires. Problem was, the low pelvic areas of the small cows was also a problem. This contributed to the emphasis on "clean fronts", the show ring went overboard with "goosey fronts" and "Zipper front ends".

these are great comments.  as usual there is a balance.  if a bull looked like the link below, i doubt he could sire something feminine

http://www.celebopedia.com/nikolai-valuev/

this is simply a normal distribution and we always seem to need to go a direction, rather than stay balanced.  it has been shown that the most "beautiful" people are simply a homogeniztion of many people's faces superimposed on one another.  the eye seeks symmetry.

to me, the ideal steer would have 4 hind legs so i could have more ribeye's and filets and it wouldn't eat, but i guess would poop a lot.

it would be very discouraging if the older coarse fronted dystocia genes were somehow linked with carcass quality traits and/or marbling on grass.  (a link that could be broken by selection)

 

[garybob]

I think there is a connection between more masculine bulls passing on more femininity to their daughters.

Tthe problem is, way back, when the continentals came, there were some dystocia issues associated with the shoulder design of newborns out of growthy sires. Problem was, the low pelvic areas of the small cows was also a problem. This contributed to the emphasis on "clean fronts", the show ring went overboard with "goosey fronts" and "Zipper front ends".

these are great comments.  as usual there is a balance.  if a bull looked like the link below, i doubt he could sire something feminine

http://www.celebopedia.com/nikolai-valuev/

this is simply a normal distribution and we always seem to need to go a direction, rather than stay balanced.  it has been shown that the most "beautiful" people are simply a homogeniztion of many people's faces superimposed on one another.  the eye seeks symmetry.

to me, the ideal steer would have 4 hind legs so i could have more ribeye's and filets and it wouldn't eat, but i guess would poop a lot.

it would be very discouraging if the older coarse fronted dystocia genes were somehow linked with carcass quality traits and/or marbling on grass.  (a link that could be broken by selection)

My point is, ITK, that people don't select for sexual maturity and masculinity at a YOUNG age. We, as a breed, want cattle that look like a slim-necked bottle calf, until their show careers are over. Half the sires you mentioned achieved their physiological maturity about twice as late in life as the Leader 21st cattle we have been discussing. My opinion is, that the more masculinity he has at a young age, just equates to all a bull's daughters calving by two. I don't believe, either, that all early maturing cattle are dinks, either, because, how much did Smallflower Leader weigh? Remember Bakewell's guiding principle, of, "like begets like".

 

[knabe]

interesting comments GaryBob.  humans have been selecting for earlier and earlier fertility as well.  perhaps this is why our lives are starting to decrease.  lots of research in this area. is there enough selection for long lived cattle who perform with all the dissemination of early maturing highly marketed bulls? and do breeders feel compelled to have a turnover, if they have a stasis in their herd for their environment and management just for turnover sake?  do many breeders plot the productivity decay in their herds?  or does any cow stand a chance of staying there past say 6-10 years?

 

[knabe]

I  just AI'd this Pleasant Dawn Seal cow to Leader 9th

hey coyote, what ever happened with this mating?

 

[Okotoks]

Kinnaber Leader 9th is an interesting bull to try on some of today's cattle. He's a well put together bull and offers calving ease. I don't know how much semen is out there but I know Sue had some available. I'm a big fan of his full brother Kinnaber Leader 6th.

 

[coyote]

I  just AI'd this Pleasant Dawn Seal cow to Leader 9th




hey coyote, what ever happened with this mating?
Posted on: June 29, 2007, 04:19:15 PMPosted by: knabe 

Knabe it was a disaster. She didn't catch.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Justintime-This reminds me of Harry Mccann-who was in his late 90s in 1991-92 when I used to carry him around to look at cattle. His father had shorthorns from the first imports-and he told me many stories about Albert Hultine, Whitehall Sultan,the 1921 International Showetc. All the cops knew who he was-and towards the end he would forget which side of the road he was on.Once were riding to Wichester and he was headed dead on into a tractor trailer in the wrong lane and calmly went back in his lane while the guy almost jackknifed.Someone called about a drunk driver and we got pulled over-as the sheriff goodhumordly asked if I could drive. Although his herd went to the sale barn-there were probably 150 head of shorthorns that day. certainly one of the largest groups (other than Erabee) on the east coast.He was a character-and a great gentleman O0

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Here is what I know about shorthorns in Cali. To those of us in the mid-west we see it as a growing market so it is funny that a local sees the market shrinking. One of the high sellers in the WHR sell went to SLO, CA not to mention all of the K-Kim cattle that get sent that way. My whole California shorty perspective can be summed up in 2 words "Don Cardey", as long as he is in your state the shorthorn population will be fine. He is one of the (if not the most) interesting characters in the cattle biz plus a hell of a cattleman. By the way I know he has grazed his cattle in hill country before and gets along just fine./////// Next time you see Cardy-tell him Tenenbaum knows he secretly used SRPB Bottom Line-and stopped by Shirlys in Kansas and stole a bull (lol)