Majors Money Man

[CTM]

To  Dr. Lana Kaiser
I would like to reply to Dr  Lana's  statement about Majors Money Man.  Just to give you a little background on this Bull!  He  is 10 years old,still
sound, still breeding cows out in a section pasture (640 acres).  95% of all AI bulls are dead by the time they are 4, because of unsoundness.
We have been using him for 9 years now, and he goes out to pasture with cows every year.  We calve around 200 hundred calves out of him every
year, less now because 1/3 of our herd is now Money Man Daughters.    Yes  we have a few stiff legged calves out of him, but you show me today a AI show bull producer that won't.  Don't forget to look into your own pastures.  1/2 of this or more comes through the COW.  This is a real problem with all show cattle,  Maines/Composites/any Club calf,  and now Most  all Breeds.  We know they have to be strait to win, but their  is a very fine line between strait and  cripple.  and it comes from both sides of the pedigree,  This happens.  So before condemning  any  A I  bull out there, you better study your own herd and select different sires, possibly a different breed is necessary for a strait show heifer,  may even have to go to angus or hereford bull.    Majors Maines have been breeding show cattle for over 35 year still one of the soundest herds in the nation,  come look.  Majors Money Man is a Purple Label Sire  through SEK Genetics Sire Catalog,  So he dose work on sound cattle.

 

[farmboy]

....and thats when the fight started....

 

[DL]

Colleen - I like MM and I have used him for the past couple of years and I have retained heifers and I am going to use him selectively again in 2009r. This year I had a calf sired by MM who has developed SP - the dam is by Magic and she is sound. The genetics of SP are not known but probably involve mutiple factors including environment and other genes. SWMO qualified her endorsement of MM based on a spastic paresis calf - no fight zach, just the experience of 2 different people - 

 

[CAB]

  Just a question that has been on my mind since this SP subject has risen up here lately, does anyone know what the SP, & PHA status of the Maine Anjou breed is in the Europeon countries? Have they got the same troubles or have these "genetic defects" developed here in the U.S. since their importation?
  Colleen/Bob, thanks for chiming in. I know it seems like the members are bashing your great old bull some, God bless him & you both. I for one am glad for the discussion, but hate that old MMM has been drug around in the dirt a little, so to speak. Brent

 

[oakbar]

My Money Man calves have been easy birthing and very sound--well until the one heifer decided to savage her own calf and break its hip.  I think we need to be careful not to take small samples of animals  and extrapolate general observations.  I still think with the number of offspring on the ground out of a proven sire like Money Man you have a lot better chance of getting the birth weight, soundness, etc. that you plan for than you would with many of the unproven bulls I see promoted on SP.  Every mating is an individual thing and no bull or cow will always give you the expected result.  Both the Champion and Reserve Champion Maine bulls at the Iowa Beef Expo were out of Money Man and I thought both were impressive.  In fact, they were the only two MM calves in the show.  Pretty impressive showing overall I'd say.

I also agree that I would like to see judges start favoring cattle with slightly more "set" to their legs--especially in breeding cattle shows.  I think it would go a long way towards keeping breeding animals  in our herds longer.  "Posty" back legs are impressive when profiling an animal in the show ring, but as we've found in both horses and cows it doesn't help the longevity of the animal and probably causes more culling in the industry than we realize.

 

[knabe]

does anyone know what the SP, & PHA status of the Maine Anjou breed is in the Europeon countries? Have they got the same troubles or have these "genetic defects" developed here in the U.S. since their importation?

i personally like the profiles of the british fullblood maines better than the french consistency wise.  they probably had a paramount problem, and the french went the double muscle sickle hocked coarse route, leaving paramounts phenotype out of the picture.  they probably also didn't like turquino.  for whatever reason, the french seem to like a wildebeast rearend.  they (the french) also see c-sections as routine, even today.  sad.

 

[bcosu]

does anyone know what the SP, & PHA status of the Maine Anjou breed is in the Europeon countries? Have they got the same troubles or have these "genetic defects" developed here in the U.S. since their importation?

i personally like the profiles of the british fullblood maines better than the french consistency wise.  they probably had a paramount problem, and the french went the double muscle sickle hocked coarse route, leaving paramounts phenotype out of the picture.  they probably also didn't like turquino.  for whatever reason, the french seem to like a wildebeast rearend.  they (the french) also see c-sections as routine, even today.  sad.

no one ever said the french were smart.

 

[justme]

So who is sponsoring this research the AMAA or is Dr. Bevers doing it on his own?  I'm just curious.

 

[Jill]

The genetics of SP are not known but probably involve mutiple factors including environment and other genes. SWMO qualified her endorsement of MM based on a spastic paresis calf - no fight zach, just the experience of 2 different people - 

Experience or not, if the genetics are unknown how can you say it came from ANY bull?  It was stated that Ali was a PHA carrier because he walked like a duck and yet in the final analysis, nothing could have been further from the truth, I just think we need to be careful making statements regarding a bull when in reality we really don't have any idea what causes it.

 

[knabe]

It was stated that Ali was a PHA carrier because he walked like a duck and yet in the final analysis, nothing could have been further from the truth, I just think we need to be careful making statements regarding a bull when in reality we really don't have any idea what causes it.

paramount is in ali, therefore war chief.  wish he was tested.

 

[Show Heifer]

CTM - thank you for defending your bull, but I also appreciate DL's account on what happened to her calves. This site is based on experiences of its posters. If we can not share each of our own experiences that happen in our own pastures, how can we expect to learn ANYTHING?  I use a few maine bulls. I haven't tried MM due to factors I have learned from the internet, barn talk, and from what I think will work on my cows. I guess if the "talk" is wrong, my loss. If it is right, then I am ahead of the game. I have nothing bad to say about him, as I have not used him IN MY OWN PASTURE nor do I personally know anyone that has used him.
I have used Mytty In Focus. I will NOT be using him again. Not only do I not like the live calves, I am not a fan of the dead ones either. That has been MY experience with him. If others have had luck with him, great. But I will not be using him again.

I have to chuckle that amoung the "thousands of calves" born, very few are TH/PHA/Crippled/Too White/Rat tailed etc. from the users of that particular bull were ever effected.

I guess if we can not voice our opinions about our own personal experiences, that leaves "politics, religion, and her."  Oops, I guess we can't discuss those either. Unless you want to be accused of being accusatory.  ???

Welcome to the planet CTM.  I will welcome your insight on maine genetics.

 

[justme]

CTM has been here for a while...she's just a quiet observer.

Just as DL can tell what happened on her farm...I fell CTM has the right to defend her bull also. 

Until there is a scientific way to prove where this came from I don't think I can personally step up and point a finger at any bull.  Just like Jill stated everyone pointed at Ali and wow they were wrong.  I just like to avoid being libel I guess.

 

[kanshow]

I think that it is in very poor taste to put a genetic defect on a bull until there is scientific proof.    I probably shouldn't even mention that this is slanderous & libel. 

 

[knabe]

to disclose, i used mmm on two heifers this late summer for fall calves.  they were 18mos old when i bred them.  one is a paramount granddaughter out of a legacy plus daughter who is out of a full sis to backdraft.  the other was on a legacy plus daughter out of a direct midas/powerplant cow.

hopefully something nice happens.

 

[ZNT]

Colleen,

Thank you for chiming in on your bull.  Any bull that has been around for 10 years and is still working out there in God's country, needs to be defended.  I really like your bull, and I really like what he has done for the Maine breed.  MMM provides growth, moderate birthweight, and consistency that the other Maine poster child doesn't.  Unfortunately, I have not had the right type heifer to breed him to, otherwise I would use him in a second.

The internet is a great way to discuss the good, bad, and ugly of an unlimited number of topics, but unfortunately, it is impossible to weed the isolated cases from a serious problem.  Just because 5 or 10 people on a website say they had a problem, doesn't mean the other 2-3000 calves born out of him didn't turn out fine.  To pick one bull out and say he produces a cripple now and then, but not bash the other 200 club calf sires is not fair.  The show industry has a lot more problems to worry about than MMM.  Our bull got accused of producing monkey mouth calves on this site, even though, out of the hundreds of calves born, only one was accused  to have it.  People that actually saw the cal fin person said he wasn't, but it was still posted as a Monkey Mouth calf.

CTM-  You have been one of the most positive and influential breeds in the Maine Anjou breed.  I wish more of the top breeders in this breed had as much integrity as you do.

Zane

 

[farwest]

Justme and znt.  Right on. Cm is more of a cattle person than 99 per cent on this board.  She's saw thousands out of that bull. Her statements are fact. I get a chuckle when I see a person or two on this board correcting her. They have not a clue. And yes. Let's accuse when the test is there and positive

 

[knabe]

Justme and znt.  Right on. Cm is more of a cattle person than 99 per cent on this board.  She's saw thousands out of that bull. Her statements are fact. I get a chuckle when I see a person or two on this board correcting her. They have not a clue. And yes. Let's accuse when the test is there and positive

extremes are being presented here.  both have merit.  people do have clues.  an earlier thread discussed bringing back registration for PHA for bulls.  there will be a lot more popular bulls with defects that we don't know about yet, and there will be one's that are multigenic as the single trait recessive's are the low hanging fruit.  the KEY, is that we have tests to breed around this rather than discard genetics entirely.  i feel it is a mistake to discard the rest of the germ line if there are other traits of interest that are not linked to the defect.  we have got to get over this nonsense about not using genetics that have defects if there are other reasons to use them.  we don't use the test to NEVER use a bloodline, but use the test to breed around it.  it is entirely nonsense to have a tool and only use it to discard genetics.  THAT to me is nonsense.  for maine's, there really isn't a broad enough germplasm and it's getting WORSE every year.  probably every popular germ line has something.  list them in your head.

 

[farwest]

Knabe you and I could debate all day about who has a clue and who don't and what about. You would win. I'd still have my opinion though. Lol. To the majors.  If their talking about him you know you have a good one.  Positive or negative. Its the silence when you know you have a dud

 

[kanshow]

I think anyone who has a 10 year old bull that is still out breeding cows ought to be able to brag about him.    Money Man may not be the answer for everyone but he has his place.  Think about the longevity that will be bred into his daughters.

 

[farmboy]

im using him on 3 heifers this spring. one being a sunseeker and 2 being high percentage maines