Majors Money Man

[DL]

hey telos - you know I did say I liked my MM calves and I did say that I had retained heifers and I did say I was going to use him selectively again (although the vileness of these posts is making me reconsider that decision)  but I gather if I say nice things it is irrelevant

as you mentioned the ability to think your way out of a paper bag is a rare commodity

BTW the cow of the spastic paresis calf sired by MM is a Magic x Strutt (OMG I have slandered, libeled, labeled, innuendoed one of the great maternal bulls of the breed and one who first made them black and pretty)

spastic paresis is an terrible condition - it is genetic - we do not know the pattern of inheritance but it is likely NOT simple recessive - instead of ranting and raving why not encourage individuals you see who have SP calves to provide Dr B with samples so we can get to the bottom of this and identify the mutation - do something proactive for a change

 

[knabe]

BTW the cow of the spastic paresis calf sired by MM is a Magic x Strutt (OMG I have slandered, libeled, labeled, innuendoed one of the great maternal bulls of the breed and one who first made them black and pretty)

it's really a shame that there isn't more sire/daughter mating experiments out there.

still, with a test, a test is cheaper for everyone, and you can still use the bull.

people, tests are to be used, not to eliminate bulls from use.

not that big of a deal.

 

[chambero]

BTW the cow of the spastic paresis calf sired by MM is a Magic x Strutt (OMG I have slandered, libeled, labeled, innuendoed one of the great maternal bulls of the breed and one who first made them black and pretty)

DL -

Putting all the B.S. aside:

I really only interpreted Ms. Majors post as telling you there is not a known problem with the bull.  If you had intentions of using him again I wouldn't change that based on her post.  The posts on this thread taking issue with you aren't coming from her.  For someone trying to make breeding decisions, if they tell me they don't know of any issues on that many offspring that's good enough for me - especially when a lot of people tell you that you are dealing with someone that has a long time, great reputation. 

You said your cow went back to Strutt.  If you go back and look at pictures of him you can see he was super straight.  I'll bet you that there's something there somewhere that might the real root of your problem on that specific calf.  We had a bull that I know threw SP affected calves - and he had that super straight look moreso as a five year old than when we bought him as a two year old.  We would breed him to 30-50 cows a year and had one affected calf every single calf crop out of him.  Our bull would never have made it to ten years old.

If you look at the mature photo of MMM, he is not straight at all.  Based on what I've seen in my own heard and what little evidence I've seen posted, I really think SP might could just come from one parent.

 

[knabe]

You said your cow went back to Strutt.  If you go back and look at pictures of him you can see he was super straight.

strutt sire, black gold, his sire, cunia.  strutt is in polled pursuit, so is executive, therefore MMM.  not only that but, but black gold is in executive at least twice and once on the bottom of MMM through bogards.  cunia is in there without black gold at least once on the bottom.  didn't check on the top.

still doesn't mean anything without a test and verification.

 

[DL]

chambero - with all due respect - I already knew everything Colleen said about Money Man - I had been in contact with her and researched the bull - I have no issue with her posts and frankly I like my non spastic MM calves - my issue is with all the people who seem to think stating a fact is bashing a bull and with those people who are unwilling to submit samples on defective calves.

I hate killing calves because they have SP - the calf I have to kill was already sold. My favorite calf - one I intended to keep, same sire, same family has me worried. Having to kill a calf is worse than having one born dead. I had intended to breed most of my cows to MM - but that just ain't gonna happen

We assume that straight is related to SP - but we don't know that - the idea that just because a bull has phenotypically not straight legs means he cannot carry the mutation for SP is really ludicrious - alternatively the idea that a straighter legged bull must carry the (as yet unknown) mutation is also ludicrious -

yeah knabe - Black Gold and Cunia are there - it will be an interesting gene hunt

It is more than likely that the genetic problem with spastic paresis is a susceptibility locus - if you get it from both parents you get SP, and depending on other genes in play and maybe the environment the expression of the condition will vary. If you get it from one parent there may be a longer time to showing clinicial signs. This type of inheritance would explain why some calves - like the one you mentioned (gee did anybody attack you for naming the sire???) show clinical signs early and some calves don't show signs until they are much older - 14, 15, 16 months

But we won't know until there are sufficient samples to identify the mutation - and with the attitude of most members of this board they won't be coming from here - it is a good thing we have other options to obtain samples

 

[Telos]

Logic, if that is anything that can hold water, might be that we are linebreeding a particular animal or animals and is likely that it is coming from both sides of the family tree. This condition to my knowledge was not observed or perhaps just not publicized with F1 matings with Maines. If  I'm wrong please correct me. And I know all breeds carry this condition.

I knew the breeder of Strutt. Saw the bull when he was a couple of months old and followed his career from National Champion to breeding bull. Never did I see or hear of a SP calf from him. That doesn't exclude him from being responsible of producing a SP calf two or three generations back.

I suspect linebreeding Cunia or maybe Etulason for potentially being responsible but that is just an uneducated guess.

If this is the result of simply selecting for too straight of a hind leg, I would not be too surprised either. Because anytime we select for particulars, unwanted  genetic malformations seem to display themselves.

One thing is for sure... It's going to be interesting for us to find out how this defect works.

 

[chambero]

We assume that straight is related to SP - but we don't know that - the idea that just because a bull has phenotypically not straight legs means he cannot carry the mutation for SP is really ludicrious - alternatively the idea that a straighter legged bull must carry the (as yet unknown) mutation is also ludicrious -

People get pissed when you start throwing around words like ludicrous when someone is just trying to have a discussion with you.  Maybe you don't realize you do that, but you do.  Often.  I'm in a good mood today because we didn't get burned up in wildfires last night so I'll ignore it. 

My question is do we really know that its a true "mutation" and not just some trait or tendency that can be inherited.  Calves do just show up with it overnight.  This may be gross simplification, but to me it acts like it is is almost an extreme version of a pinched nerve or "catch in the back".  I really think the mechanism has something to do with them being too straight, or maybe just improper muscular formation resulting in them being too tight, and they eventually move wrong or do something and a nerve just goes haywire and all of a sudden the legs don't work right anymore. 

We like to talk about evidence and observations - have you ever seen an animal with it that wasn't too "straight" to begin with?  I haven't.

 

[DL]

I am glad you didn't get burned up in the fires - they look absolutely awful and the devastation is unimaginable

yes I have seen calves with SP that were not born "too straight" - in fact what I have observed is that these calves lie around a lot but look perfectly normal - they lie around so much compared to their peers that you think they have a heart condition - and one day you look at them and they are straight and the next day they are spastic and it goes down hill from there

I think most people do not recognize the prodromal signs of spastic paresis and therefore see only the straight legged spastic calf

this is what we know about the genetics

It is more than likely that the genetic problem with spastic paresis is a susceptibility locus - if you get it from both parents you get SP, and depending on other genes in play and maybe the environment the expression of the condition will vary. If you get it from one parent there may be a longer time to showing clinical signs. This type of inheritance would explain why some calves show severe and rapid clinical signs early and some calves don't show signs until they are much older - 14, 15, 16 months and the time course to total disability is much longer.

Giving the affected calf a lidocaine epidural will decrease the severity of signs as will doing a neurectomy( cutting the nerve) - but neither is a long term fix and neither corrects the underlying and as yet unknown genetic defect - this does however suggest that the mutation affects the nerves interaction with the muscle leading to spastic contraction of the muscles and incredibly tense gastrocs tendons

a "tendency to be inherited" would be genetic and would involve a change in DNA so technically it would be a mutation ( a permanent change in DNA)

I think ludicrious is a perfectly useful word, I am sorry you don't like it - but what we need are samples from spastic calves and their dam and pedigrees so we can identify the mutation and sort the wheat from the chaff

 

[knabe]

the discussion about the cause of the affliction seems to include the possibility that there may be a gene duplication, similar to hunnington's and that the more copies you have, the more severe.  there are a couple of reasons this could happen, that is not understood why these things happen.  in my book, it could be because of the landscape of the individuals being crossed and that this might be an alignment issue and have nothing to do with being able to idendify it in either parent without seeing the same area in the offspring.

with most of the low hanging fruit single gene recessives being found, the next level are the more difficult genes, especially the one's that were previously not prevalent, simply due to who was crossed with who.  remember, this show ring stuff has only been going around for 30 years or so which is a relatively short period of genetic time.

perhaps a synonym for ludicrous might be inconsistent.

 

[doc-sun]

could straight be related to chianina

 

[farmboy]

....and thats when the fight started....

*cough cough*

 

[knabe]

could straight be related to chianina

straight is probably related to human.  the way bulls push on each other in the wild, i can't see how too straight or crooked would get propagated very long.

seen some nice straight (fullblood) chi's that were not too straight behind.

 

[farwest]

Hands down the most professional person that's posted on this post is the one that started it, Coleen Majors.  One statement , the truth, the facts to back them up.  Not lowering herself to the jawing.  Perhaps she should have the initials in front of her name.

 

[knabe]

Hands down the most professional person that's posted on this post is the one that started it, Coleen Majors.   One statement , the truth, the facts to back them up.  Not lowering herself to the jawing.  Perhaps she should have the initials in front of her name.

the above is probably the least professional comment on this post.

both sides are actually trying to help each other.

this is not a personal issue.  it is a genetic defect.  we can make a test hopefully and we can use it to lower costs to develope animals from lines with a defect compared to sire daughter matings and the turnaround time is a lot shorter and everyone can use the test.

i see no reason not to use carriers.

 

[Jill]

By the tone of the last 10-12 posts it would seem to me that no one really knows what causes SP, how it is carried, when or why it occurs, all I'm saying is I don't think it is a good idea to label a bull as an SP problem when it may have nothing whatsoever to do with the bull.

 

[SWMO]

Sorry I brought it up.  Never intended to start a fight.  Won't post again.

 

[TJ]

...the truth, the facts to back them up... 

That's interesting because posting the truth & stating facts (even posting University Research) seems to draw me a fair share of criticism from some (not all). 

I am glad that Coleen Majors shared her side of the story & well she should have, but SWMO was not wrong for sharing her experience either, IMHO.  My guess is that both of them are telling the truth & nothing is wrong with the truth.  Sharing calf reports is just the nature of the business & it should be expected, no need people blowing gaskets just because one of their favorite bulls (or their friends bull) sired a problem calf or 2.  I never like hearing a bad report either, but I want to hear them all if they are truly legit reports.  When I do, I'll be sure to share all the good ones, just as Coleen Majors did, but you have to take the bad with the good because no bull or breed is perfect. 

I don't have a dog in this fight, but IMHO, I think that some need to lighten up a little, especially now that both sides have more than shared their own version/opinion. 

TJ

 

[Telos]

No one really knows what causes SP.

This is the very reason why we have discussions. Many people on this board have had experiences with this defect. Sometimes, maybe not always, a consensus of knowledge from other breeders can lead to new discoveries.

I thought DL and Knabe brought to the discussion some very good points.

This blame game attitude is so inmature IMO. And no SWMO you did not start any fight. I hope you will continue to post.

 

[Telos]

Well said TJ. You said what I was thinking. Thanks.

 

[aj]

I'm pretty sure that if a bulls owner is a really nice person that the bull cannot have a defect. And I assume big john still thinks windstar is ph clean. Its kinda like the bull is horned.....but he does have polled blood in him. ;D