Majors Money Man

[DL]

CTM has been here for a while...she's just a quiet observer.

Just as DL can tell what happened on her farm...I fell CTM has the right to defend her bull also. 

Until there is a scientific way to prove where this came from I don't think I can personally step up and point a finger at any bull.  Just like Jill stated everyone pointed at Ali and wow they were wrong.  I just like to avoid being libel I guess.

We will NEVER know if an animal carries a defective gene until we suck it up and submit samples and pedigrees from defective calves and their parents. When this topic was brought up by an individual with a spastic calf sired by MM I asked her to please submit the samples to Dr B and mentioned that I had a calf with SP sired by MM - it is a statement of fact without any innuendo and accusation -

There is NO scientific way to prove anything until we have the knowledge of how the defect is transmitted and what the mutation is. The only way to get this information is to submit samples -

There is nothing libelous in the truth

 

[knabe]

There is nothing libelous in the truth

true.  in fact, it's an actual constitutionally accepted defense.

 

[Jill]

It isn't the truth until the calf has been tested, and if it hasn't been it is just conjecture as to what the calf may have had.JMO

 

[DL]

It isn't the truth until the calf has been tested, and if it hasn't been it is just conjecture as to what the calf may have had.JMO

tested for what?

 

[Jill]

It was my understanding SWMO hasn't had the calf tested, since you requested they do so.

 

[DL]

Jill - sorry for the confusion - spastic paresis, like many other conditions in humans and animals, is a clinical diagnosis.

I asked SWMO to save the ear from the affected calf and send it (along with blood from the dam and pedigree information) to Dr Beever so that they can develop a bank of DNA from spastic calves and relatives. Once sufficient samples from affected calves are obtained Dr B and BR can begin to look for the mutation. In order to identify the mutation there must be enough samples from affected calves

 

[doc-sun]

I raise angus, maine and a few simmental cattle and have a tank with semen in it that dates to 1969.  We had our 1st bysantin and berlin calves shortly after that. I have seen most of the old maine bulls talked about on this site. Since 1969 the 2 most prevalent genetic problems I have seen are double muscling and big lethargic calves who did not breath long (about 5 to 10 of each). Is this relevant?  Do genetic problems cause breeders to lose an unreasonable percentage of their calf crop each year i.e. a percentage greater than the commercial breeder. I think I know how we got cattle that are too straight in the breed.  How do you think we did?  I have seen all of the following Maine bulls.  Which do you think benefited the breed and why?

caqui, duke of heaven, touchdown, denver nugget, dabla, covino 111, capone, danigo, dollar 11, calberta marquis...commander...chinook...lucky strike, inox, epic, goliath, red alert, nortex pride, streamliner, power plant, black gold, viking, metric, thc golddust and rambo.  I never saw Cunia, but used him to smooth up and moderate cattle.  At Denver this year there were about 5 head in the maine & maintainer shows that could cover their track.  Why?

Having genetic testing is valuable science, but could be immaterial if you don't load up on linebreeding.  Raising good sound functional cattle is very important.  I guess what I am saying is that I would trade 1 sp calf for the other 30 marketable hig performing calves I got and breed that cow to something different next year.

 

[DL]

doc-sun welcome - the mutation for double muscling has been identified in a variety of breeds. I don't now if big dumb don't breath is genetic or not - there sure are a lot of big dumb don't breath in multiple breeds and species. You can ask Gypsy and some of the others who foudn themselves with a lot of Draft Pick genetics and a bunch of PHA calves if they think genetic problems cause breeders to lose an unreasonable percentage of their calf crop each year. Or you could ask some of the Angus breeders with a lot of 1680 genetics how they were affected by AM and hydro.

Loading up on linebreeding just makes it easier to identify defects because the frequency of the mutation in the population increases more rapidly with line breeding

I hate having to kill calves because they have an incurable condition that causes them pain - but it is of course the humane thing to do - I don't ever want another calf with spastic paresis and I intend to work hard to get enough samples so Dr Beever can identify the genetic defect. I am not at all keen on disposable calves and while the trade off may be OK by you I am not so sure - that is the great thing about America

I certainly plan to use a different bull on the cow and the whole cow family - in fact the cow iis already bred to Midas. SWMO plans to do the same thing -  When you don't know the genetics involved you have to use your brain and a little logic if you don't want to deal with the issue again, so with my own ideas about what lines might be involved that is what I will do

 

[Jill]

How is it that in a herd as small as yours, you seem to have ever genetic defect that comes out, are you that unlucky in everything in life?

 

[farwest]

That's funny.  Or is it ?

 

[doc-sun]

DL: You made my point in your reply.  A good sound intelligent breeding program can overcome genetic defects without making acadamia rich.  The old cowboy who is now 94 years old and sharp as a tack that my Dad hired to drag me around as a teenager always said to use sire daughter testing to prove purity and out cross until you had it.  The angus 1680 problem exists because the promoters were deaf to that advice. I am testing all my potential carriers for marketability purposes, but I am not going to test beyond common sense.  Most college professors have never worked in the real world. That's why they ended up professors. I have to teach the students I hire how to do the work my clients require after they graduate unless I can luck out and hire and train a student with a good  background during college.

 

[frostback]

To   Dr. Lana Kaiser
I would like to reply to Dr  Lana's  statement about Majors Money Man.  Just to give you a little background on this Bull!  He  is 10 years old,still
sound, still breeding cows out in a section pasture (640 acres).   95% of all AI bulls are dead by the time they are 4, because of unsoundness.
We have been using him for 9 years now, and he goes out to pasture with cows every year.  We calve around 200 hundred calves out of him every
year, less now because 1/3 of our herd is now Money Man Daughters.    Yes  we have a few stiff legged calves out of him, but you show me today a AI show bull producer that won't.   Don't forget to look into your own pastures.  1/2 of this or more comes through the COW.  This is a real problem with all show cattle,  Maines/Composites/any Club calf,  and now Most  all Breeds.  We know they have to be strait to win, but their  is a very fine line between strait and  cripple.  and it comes from both sides of the pedigree,  This happens.  So before condemning  any  A I   bull out there, you better study your own herd and select different sires, possibly a different breed is necessary for a strait show heifer,  may even have to go to angus or hereford bull.     Majors Maines have been breeding show cattle for over 35 year still one of the soundest herds in the nation,  come look.   Majors Money Man is a Purple Label Sire  through SEK Genetics Sire Catalog,  So he dose work on sound cattle.

CTM, You are new here so I will have to fill you in on how this works. You, your bull, or your operation gets to get put in question but you dont get to answere or defend yourself. You are not supposed to reply. Just take it and let the poster stay anonymous. Hope you learn for next time. Remember you dont have letters in front of your name so you dont know as much.

 

[RSC]

To   Dr. Lana Kaiser
I would like to reply to Dr  Lana's  statement about Majors Money Man.  Just to give you a little background on this Bull!  He  is 10 years old,still
sound, still breeding cows out in a section pasture (640 acres).   95% of all AI bulls are dead by the time they are 4, because of unsoundness.
We have been using him for 9 years now, and he goes out to pasture with cows every year.  We calve around 200 hundred calves out of him every
year, less now because 1/3 of our herd is now Money Man Daughters.    Yes  we have a few stiff legged calves out of him, but you show me today a AI show bull producer that won't.   Don't forget to look into your own pastures.  1/2 of this or more comes through the COW.  This is a real problem with all show cattle,  Maines/Composites/any Club calf,  and now Most  all Breeds.  We know they have to be strait to win, but their  is a very fine line between strait and  cripple.  and it comes from both sides of the pedigree,  This happens.  So before condemning  any  A I   bull out there, you better study your own herd and select different sires, possibly a different breed is necessary for a strait show heifer,  may even have to go to angus or hereford bull.     Majors Maines have been breeding show cattle for over 35 year still one of the soundest herds in the nation,  come look.   Majors Money Man is a Purple Label Sire  through SEK Genetics Sire Catalog,  So he dose work on sound cattle.

CTM, You are new here so I will have to fill you in on how this works. You, your bull, or your operation gets to get put in question but you dont get to answere or defend yourself. You are not supposed to reply. Just take it and let the poster stay anonymous. Hope you learn for next time. Remember you dont have letters in front of your name so you dont know as much.

They call me Mr. Tony, Do those letters count?  (lol)

Tony

 

[Telos]

I raise angus, maine and a few simmental cattle and have a tank with semen in it that dates to 1969.  We had our 1st bysantin and berlin calves shortly after that. I have seen most of the old maine bulls talked about on this site. Since 1969 the 2 most prevalent genetic problems I have seen are double muscling and big lethargic calves who did not breath long (about 5 to 10 of each). Is this relevant?  Do genetic problems cause breeders to lose an unreasonable percentage of their calf crop each year i.e. a percentage greater than the commercial breeder. I think I know how we got cattle that are too straight in the breed.  How do you think we did?  I have seen all of the following Maine bulls.  Which do you think benefited the breed and why?

caqui, duke of heaven, touchdown, denver nugget, dabla, covino 111, capone, danigo, dollar 11, calberta marquis...commander...chinook...lucky strike, inox, epic, goliath, red alert, nortex pride, streamliner, power plant, black gold, viking, metric, thc golddust and rambo.  I never saw Cunia, but used him to smooth up and moderate cattle.  At Denver this year there were about 5 head in the maine & maintainer shows that could cover their track.  Why?

Having genetic testing is valuable science, but could be immaterial if you don't load up on linebreeding.  Raising good sound functional cattle is very important.  I guess what I am saying is that I would trade 1 sp calf for the other 30 marketable hig performing calves I got and breed that cow to something different next year.

Benefit can be a misleading word when talking about Maine genetics. You have the show genetics and a commercial sector. Probably two different lines of genetics.

Doc-sun, I hope you can give us some of your opinions. I have been interested in the Metric's and have been wondering  about the Duke of Heaven's.

From what I've seen and heard, Inox was a problem free kind of sire and never heard a bad word othwise. Well, only that he would never put a big butt on his calves.

I think Cowboy saw or heard of a Maine sire that sired a high percent of SP calves, but was nice and did not disclose the sire. He did say he was very popular, though.

DL, maybe you should have just mentioned the cow's pedigree. GEEEEEEEEE....... I guess making an observation that is backed by a similar observation is not good enough.

I'm sure there are some Maine breeders that know more about SP and have deducted some possible answers through the use of old fashioned logic. I guess good ole Dr. B will have to figure this one out as well. SP is a hideous condition that I hope to never to see again.

 

[TMJ Show Cattle]

I'm sure glad there are some new voices on here to keep certain posters and their insidious negativity at bay. I know of another boardroom that completely vanished because of two individuals,both smart enough to be trained in books, but dumber than a day old dog,when common sense is called for. When you hang people out to dry on a public forom as this,instead of sending a personal message to them with your concerns tells me this: Put your brain on a razor blade,and it would look like a ball bearing rolling down a 4 lane highway!! If their brains were rags,there wouldn't be enough there to make a pair of pants for a piss ant...... Yes, this is ...John Okla, not the voice of the other half of TMJ. Bob and Colleen Majors, have forgot more about raising cattle and the possible defects that occur than some of these so-called experts that get on here voice their biased opinions,doing way more damage to a respected reputation,then any damn defect, be it in the Maine breed or any other breed.Yes, this is America,and by god we all are innocent until proven guilty. And don't think for one minute if pushed come to shove,the slander/libel accusation WILL hold water.

 

[BIGTEX]

I'm sure glad there are some new voices on here to keep certain posters and their insidious negativity at bay. I know of another boardroom that completely vanished because of two individuals,both smart enough to be trained in books, but dumber than a day old dog,when common sense is called for. When you hang people out to dry on a public forom as this,instead of sending a personal message to them with your concerns tells me this: Put your brain on a razor blade,and it would look like a ball bearing rolling down a 4 lane highway!! If their brains were rags,there wouldn't be enough there to make a pair of pants for a piss ant...... Yes, this is ...John Okla, not the voice of the other half of TMJ. Bob and Colleen Majors, have forgot more about raising cattle and the possible defects that occur than some of these so-called experts that get on here voice their biased opinions,doing way more damage to a respected reputation,then any damn defect, be it in the Maine breed or any other breed.Yes, this is America,and by god we all are innocent until proven guilty. And don't think for one minute if pushed come to shove,the slander/libel accusation WILL hold water.

It makes some people feel more important than they really are.

 

[Show Heifer]

It isn't the truth until the calf has been tested, and if it hasn't been it is just conjecture as to what the calf may have had.JMO

Kinda reminds me of the three monkeys.... I see nothing. I hear nothing. I say nothing.  Therefore nothing is wrong. 

Yea, that's the way to progress a breed.... oh, I'm sorry that is already the attitude that got the defects to their status now. My bad. Continue on my friends, continue on.

 

[DL]

Alll I can say is WOW - SWMO mentioned she had a spastic paresis calf sired by MM - I asked her to submit samples to Beever so we could eventually identify the gene that causes this problem and also mentioned I had a spastic calf by MM - these are just simply the facts - 2 experiences - and the masses go bonkers with personal attacks - the monkeys are running the show

 

[frostback]

Yes but I am sure they will get it back from You.

 

[Telos]

I don't think anyone on here is trying to POO-POO anybody's bull or any breeder for that matter. I'm sorry if some of you interpret it that way. When Red mentioned my bull sired a monkey mouth calf, nobody jumped- in to protect my bull or my reputation. I just guess nobody liked my bull or me. My question is, why was Red immune to criticism, but others are not? Someone made a simple observation that a particular bull sired a SP calf. Asking questions or trying to figure out things seems to be a rare commodity these days. I've heard rumors that some member on Steer Planet literally put a certain bull out of business, but by the looks of things he is selling more semen that what I even expected.

A good rule of thumb; "If you can't say something nice about a bull, just don't say anything at all". Advice from my Mother (or something similar to that).