New Argument....

[Show Heifer]

It seems we have all chimed in on Obama's real identity and where he was actually born and if he is a US citizen, so I figured we might as well hash this out...

What out bailing out the Automakers?  While watching the little weasels on TV begging for money, they panned the camera to chris dodds. And a light bulb went off in my head.
We bailed out the banks (well, the gov't secretly "loaned" certain unpublished banks money), the morgage companies, and insurance companies......and lined the pockets of most politians since they were heavily invested in those companies, why the heck not bail out the auto industry? We saved dodds' butt, and NOW he thinks loaning money to private companies is a bad idea?  Heck, what is another 40 BILLION dollars after you already TOOK 740 billion (trillion?)?

According to a radio station, and whatever expert they had on, the Bill of Rights and the Constitution makes the gov't giving/loaning money to private companies/industries is ILLEGAL. And the gov't sending foreign "aide" is also illegal. So if that is the case, what the heck is going on?  And obviously we didn't get a "change" type president since he has basically filled his cabinet with old buddies, old politians, and old friends. So now what?

By the way, the most recession proof state: Iowa
                    the state with the least personal credit card debt: Iowa

So what about it? Bail them out? Oops I mean  "stabilization money"!! (That is the new buzz word now....not bail out money.... that doesn't sound good.)!!!

 

[austin]

On one hand, I feel the automakers and their companies deserve to collapse for not innovating soon enough. But, due to the millions of workers they employ, I believe a bailout is necessary, only under the condition that restrictions will be established that limit the automakers to how and where they use the money that the government provides.

 

[BAM]

The sad thing is the auto people would not be in such a pickle , if Congress had not made the banks give all those bad loans,thus starting the credit crunch. In return a lot of people could not get financing to buy a new vehicle.

 

[CJC]

The sad thing is the auto people would not be in such a pickle , if Congress had not made the banks give all those bad loans,thus starting the credit crunch. In return a lot of people could not get financing to buy a new vehicle.

We had this talk at our 401k meeting
It was not congress it was the union. When you have to pay out the type of money for their pensions you would go broke too. I dont' know if it was on here or some where else; but taken $4000 off a car and putting it in to their retirement and $1500 in medical(this was per person) that is a whole lot of money the car makers are losing. Don't get me wrong the union has done some good ; but they have hurt this country too. Look at all the work that they would not do because the price was not right ; now we are sending work over sea's , having illegal immigrants do it. In summary i don't feel bad for these clowns they did it to their self.

 

[showcattlegal]

i agree they did it to themselves. but on the other hand my family owns a GMC dealership. so we are worried about whats going to happen to the smaller guys.

 

[Torch]

Are you sure it's the union? Caterpillar has the same union but doesn't have the problem.

Ok, then it must be weak management? Well then there's the government regulation and it's expense.

I would say it is the american people. We allowed the government over time to basically tell this industry what it can't do and what it would do. Now it is time to let the free market take over and expose the heavy hand of government intrusion in the marketplace. Yes they will fail and so will some of the suppliers. But what will survive, if it is viable, will be a stronger more agile industry. It will be painful but this is something long overdue.

In American you have the right to fail just as much as the right to succeed!

 

[aj]

If they would do a chapter 11, couldn't they reorganize,stay in existence, and bounce back with a leaner labor union attachment and carry on? What scares me is that Peloserie will get her mitts on the companies and start making electric doolies or something.

 

[Jill]

I say get rid of the union and then talk about the rest.  As long as these companies are union controlled they will never be profitable, they can't compete on the open market.  My neighbor made 200,000.00 the year before he retired as a line worker, he got an 800 dollar Christmas bonus in retirement, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that isn't going to work for long.

 

[aj]

I have heard that the job bank is going to be dumped anyway.

 

[CJC]

Where is our money for bail out when we get in to financial trouble.

 

[Rustynail]

Are you sure it's the union? Caterpillar has the same union but doesn't have the problem.

Ok, then it must be weak management? Well then there's the government regulation and it's expense.

I would say it is the american people. We allowed the government over time to basically tell this industry what it can't do and what it would do. Now it is time to let the free market take over and expose the heavy hand of government intrusion in the marketplace. Yes they will fail and so will some of the suppliers. But what will survive, if it is viable, will be a stronger more agile industry. It will be painful but this is something long overdue.

In American you have the right to fail just as much as the right to succeed!

Good post

 

[Davis Shorthorns]

Where is our money for bail out when we get in to financial trouble.

Unemployment, Disability, Welfare, WIC,etc...  all of those government programs are our bail out.  The American people have been getting bailed out for a very long time.  Since the great depression.  Oh excuse me the first great depression, not the one we are currently in. 

 

[cowz]

Thanks for bringing this up because this has been bothering me.....Question for the group.,,,,Is this money a GIFT or  a LOAN?

The bailout concept started being promoted as an economic stimulus loan,,,,,now us SHEEP are accepting this incredibly huge amount of taxpayer money as a simple bailout!

The only way I think we should bailout the auto guys is if they pull their heads out of their......!  How about making Ford and Dodge design 1 ton pickups that get 50 miles per gallon.  We can put men on the moon, but we cannot design fuel efficient vehicles.  Germans and Japanese can do it but not gas hogging us!

 

[knabe]

On one hand, I feel the automakers and their companies deserve to collapse for not innovating soon enough. But, due to the millions of workers they employ, I believe a bailout is necessary, only under the condition that restrictions will be established that limit the automakers to how and where they use the money that the government provides.

american's didn't want innovation.  they wanted an suv.  they were the problem, not the auto companies.

a bailout is not necessary.  the unions get paid too much, get paid too much not to work.  management gets paid too much, gets too many bonuses for no results.  the whole thing needs to be reorganized through bankruptcy court and void the union contract.  the company and the union need to work this out.  the government will simply bailout the union, since they are on the hook for their benefit package anyway at some level.

the government should provide no how and where the money is to be used.  if they want to do that, they should start their own company.  if the company can't figure out how to do what and where, they need to be encouraged to fail, as quickly as possible, so people who will design cars that i would purchase can start again.

i'll give you a quick rundown of a vehicle i would purchase.  make a car that is easily serviced that don't require special tools with tight access to fix.  move bumbers away from fenders so that the slightest dent doesn't ruin the fender as well.  make a bumber on a truck so that you can tap a cow without denting your fender.  make panels out of something besides metal that anyone at home can replace in ten minutes.  we have lost the ability to value practicality and cheapness of repair.  the car has become a throwaway item.  engines should be easily replaceable with a minimum of conncections so we don't have to trash the frames and all the other parts from routine idiots causing door dings, parking lot hit and runs etc.  but no, no one will do anything becuase it's more important to preserve the status quo and a bailout is reinforcing the status quo with another built in layer of control.  control needs to be purged.  but that's tooooo scary.  i want my guarantee.  i want my bailout mommy.

weight, transmissions, accelaration to speed could be solved with flywheels like on volvo trucks to help with pollution as well .  it's just so amazing how much could be down without stupid hybrid technology.  remember, i own a hybrid and it DID NOT save me money.

 

[CAB]

 When I was younger, I used to razz my friends that drove foreign cars/trucks. Now if Toyota started making @ least 3/4 ton trucks, I would more than likely own one B/C of the better workmanship/ value/longevity. It's not like you couldn't see this train coming @ you for the last 30/40 years. Come on, get your head out of the/your _____!!! How many of you got a chance to watch any of the Congressional hearings with the big 3? What a joke, They spent more time discussing how they arrived and how they were getting home than about a viable business plan. I think that most of what is wrong with this country right now is that we have 3rd/4th generation money in most of our upper administrative positions and they haven't the slightest ideas about how this country works and the far reaching effects that their actions, or nonactions effect PPL lives and livelyhoods. Need is the greatest mother of invention and let's all face it, we've had it too good for too long. If we don't want to do something, outsource or hire someone else to do it. Christ, have kids then hire @ least one nanny so you have someone to blame your kids problems on later. WOW, JMO, or venting. Brent

 

[knabe]

right on CAB.

free speech is gone too.

http://weblog.signonsandiego.com/weblogs/afb/archives/029605.html

Pulitzer winner Steve Breen, the U-T's editorial cartoonist, was scheduled to appear at Sunset View Elementary School in Point Loma next week to talk about his work. But now he's been disinvited because of today's cartoon, shown above.

thall shalt not criticize, it's so,...critical.

 

[austin]

On one hand, I feel the automakers and their companies deserve to collapse for not innovating soon enough. But, due to the millions of workers they employ, I believe a bailout is necessary, only under the condition that restrictions will be established that limit the automakers to how and where they use the money that the government provides.

american's didn't want innovation.  they wanted an suv.  they were the problem, not the auto companies.

a bailout is not necessary.  the unions get paid too much, get paid too much not to work.  management gets paid too much, gets too many bonuses for no results.  the whole thing needs to be reorganized through bankruptcy court and void the union contract.  the company and the union need to work this out.  the government will simply bailout the union, since they are on the hook for their benefit package anyway at some level.

the government should provide no how and where the money is to be used.  if they want to do that, they should start their own company.  if the company can't figure out how to do what and where, they need to be encouraged to fail, as quickly as possible, so people who will design cars that i would purchase can start again.

i'll give you a quick rundown of a vehicle i would purchase.  make a car that is easily serviced that don't require special tools with tight access to fix.  move bumbers away from fenders so that the slightest dent doesn't ruin the fender as well.  make a bumber on a truck so that you can tap a cow without denting your fender.  make panels out of something besides metal that anyone at home can replace in ten minutes.  we have lost the ability to value practicality and cheapness of repair.  the car has become a throwaway item.  engines should be easily replaceable with a minimum of conncections so we don't have to trash the frames and all the other parts from routine idiots causing door dings, parking lot hit and runs etc.  but no, no one will do anything becuase it's more important to preserve the status quo and a bailout is reinforcing the status quo with another built in layer of control.  control needs to be purged.  but that's tooooo scary.  i want my guarantee.  i want my bailout mommy.

weight, transmissions, accelaration to speed could be solved with flywheels like on volvo trucks to help with pollution as well .  it's just so amazing how much could be down without stupid hybrid technology.  remember, i own a hybrid and it DID NOT save me money.

I guess that I'm slightly biased in that a friend of mine is out of work due to this mess and working fast food barely making dues.

But I still believe that auto companies should have recognized after the opec crisis in the 70s that something needed to be done, regardless of what the American people wanted. They knew this day would come eventually.

 

[aj]

knabe....are you condoning "cow tapping"?

 

[knabe]

knabe....are you condoning "cow tapping"?

is that similar to shoulder tapping?

 

[GONEWEST]

I am idealogically against a bailout of anyone. That being said, the auto industry employs so many people, it's ridiculous to argue that it isn't prudent to do so. Who's fault? I can see Knabe's point about it being the American public who wanted SUV's. But I can also see that many factors, many of them unethical, caused fuel prices to reach the point where SUV's are not practical for everyone. But to say that the workers make to much is why the industry is in trouble is absolute hogwash, or below.

I make my living buying, selling, and building houses. There are plenty of people who want to buy my houses. There are even plenty of people with high enough credit scores to qualify for the loan to buy the houses. What there is not enough of is people who make enough money to pay the mortgage. Right now I have a house that has been sold for 179,000 SEVEN times. People THINK they qualify for the loan, but they don't make enough money for the bank to let them borrow it, no matter their credit rating. The people in the Toyota plants make $15 and hour. Those people would not qualify for a loan to buy my house. That's $600 a week, that's about $400 after taxes. What can a man do with $400 a week who has a wife and two kids??? NOTHING, I don't see how they exist. They certainbly can't buy a Toyota, thats for sure. They are proud of those things. If you say my house costs too much, then the price of bricks and lumber and sheet rock and tile are too much. OR we could live like third world people and sleep in tin huts instead of houses. The inputs of ANY industry are not going to come down significantly.

Take my base calf feed. It has been $7.25 a bag for 6 or 8 months. Corn is half what it was then, so is fuel. The sore owner swears he is still making only $1 a bag. The price of most items will not come down as the markets do.

The problem with our economy is that all of the high paying manufacturing jobs have gone out of the country, never to return again. Making enough money to buy groceries and pay the light bill does not fuel an economy. It takes extra. Money to spend on a new car, a new tractor, a new vaccum cleaner, a new dish washer or range. Money to take a trip. Money to buy the kids a show calf. That is the money that makes the economy go and without wages to employees it doesn't exist.

Making auto workers work for less will only help the management and stock holders, neither of whom are the ones that get the job done. If I were in charge of handing out bailout money, the management would have to go. How about this guy at Chrysler? He's ran every place he's ever been into the ground. How does he keep getting hired for that job?