New Argument....

[farwest]

Exactly.  Cutting those union workers back to fifteen dollars an hour will do nothing for the economy.  It will just line management pockets

 

[RSC]

Exactly.   Cutting those union workers back to fifteen dollars an hour will do nothing for the economy.  It will just line management pockets

How would you have a clue how a Union Works?  (lol)

RSC

 

[aj]

Isn't it the benefits and things like job bank that are the main cost and not the wage? Although the job bank only currently deals with 3,500 people so from an economical standpoint it's not real significant. I say let the free market sort it out. The market will bear what the market will bear. There is no one in the world smart enough to know where to put a bandaid to make it count "at this juncture". ;D

 

[Torch]

I would be willing to pay more for that high paying manufacturing job if I got something for it. Like a better built car!

But at this point I can buy an American built car of higher quality for less. It just isn't sold by Ford, GM or Chrysler. The big three need to do it better, not the same or less.

If you want paid more then you need to work for it!

 

[Davis Shorthorns]

I don't think that a auto worker needs to be paid 15 bucks an hour, but what they are making now.  You don't have to be educated and you can make 6 figures.  That is ridiculous!!!  Drop that down to about 20-25 a hour and then the benefits for the union members after retirement is ridiculous.  That is where the big bucks are going.  So Pay each auto worker about 30 grand less and be realistic about the benefits and then we will see what happens.  It might not make the price of vehicles come down any, but at least the big 3 wouldn't be in this position right now.

 

[JbarL]

seems the factor they left out was.....what happend to all the pension penison money general motors has been taking out of
every employee's  pay check for the last 25 yrs for there "retirement pension" ??  12/ 15 yrs ago there were offering  "early out " incentives to older employees to down size there union force, and force out older  non union managers making 85K, and 5 weeks vacation and replacing them with younger guys making 32K...and 1 week vacation, when they told them they could take it. the difference between uaw auto workers and non union auto workers and plastic manufactures now  is simply  company supported pension and retiree insurance.  if you work in tennessee at an auto plant...your hourly wages are just about the same/ and the insurance cost while your working is about the same...as far as pension and insurance after you  " retire".......your on your own....your  401 K is your retirement, and inusrance you'll pay at full cost. the only reason the uaw ( and boeing air lines ect) are screamin' so loud is cause thats what the management negoiated to do witht the money the workers put in each week both insurance and pension monies......when it comes time to make good.......oops the moneys all gone!!...if we  cashed out "all" of our  401 K's tomorrow..even with the 40% early withdrawl penalty......do you think every employer and  plan in the country would be able to pay up in full  with out "serious economic ramafications or " bailout help".....or bankruptcy?    the auto industry and the steel industry and the labor trades organizations ( along with grocery stores and drug stores and chain restaurants ) need to get out of the health care business , and the pension investment business...and make cars and steel and retail foods ) ....a fair priced health care system and someone  honest to watch our retirement money is all the remedy working people need......whether your union or not. ....when your 401 K lost 25 % of its value last month...how much did your empoyer lose in the deal ?... jbarl

 

[knabe]

excellent post jbarl

 

[dori36]

Thanks for bringing this up because this has been bothering me.....Question for the group.,,,,Is this money a GIFT or  a LOAN?

The bailout concept started being promoted as an economic stimulus loan,,,,,now us SHEEP are accepting this incredibly huge amount of taxpayer money as a simple bailout!

The only way I think we should bailout the auto guys is if they pull their heads out of their......!  How about making Ford and Dodge design 1 ton pickups that get 50 miles per gallon.   We can put men on the moon, but we cannot design fuel efficient vehicles.  Germans and Japanese can do it but not gas hogging us!

Good points from everyone.  I grew up in GM land (Flint, MI) and obviously have some emotional attachment to the company.  I also did business with Buick Motor Division as a private contractor in a promotion capacity several years back.  I believe all the points made have contributed to the demise of the the American car manufacturers in general and GM in particular.  Unions, greedy execs, lazy (yes, some 'are' lazy) workers, archaic management practices.  GM has also always been reactionary rather than proactive to market pressures.  In all the years of their existence, there are only 2 vehicles I can think of that were truly innovative (first of their kind) and have stood the test of time:  Corvette and Suburban.  Many other "cool" cars came as a reaction to one of the other companies having a similar model first that sold well.  Think Camaro (the pony car that followed the Ford Mustang), any of the minivans which followed the wildly popular Chryslers.  I do have to say, however, that in the 'real' truck category and thinking of the Japanese doing a better job with miles/gallon, the only big, real truck, on the road from Japan, the Toyota Tundra, gets a miserable 17 mpg on the highway.  Most any of the current model American big trucks do much better.  Like my 2002 GMC Duramax that got 20 mpg all the time and my current Yukon Denali that gets 22 on the hwy.  Great mileage - heck no.  But much better than they used to be and just way better trucks than the Japanese have ever produced.

 

[knabe]

anyone drive a truck from volvo with the energy storing flywheel for assistance on acceleration, which dovetails nicely with reducing emissions as well and reduces the need for dual lobe camshafts which are used to reduce emissions at the two rpm levels tested so that you don't get the unburnt fuel at the higher rpm setting at the low setting.

do we really need a folkswagen from the car czar?  the concept is so much softer than before.

 

[farwest]

Having a union job let me say this.  I don't believe for a second there are organized labor jobs in the auto industry paying 200k a year.  i've been told the companies came up with these wage numbers by adding in pensions and benefits to put up ficticious numbers. Any time you have organized labor, unions, or agreement employees, whatever you want to call them, and then you have management who are non-agreemnet employees there become a hate betweent labor and management and the company is what suffers.  Neither cares how much they rape the company or the job they do, as long as they get one over on the other or pull more on the paycheck.  A thought, if 10 percent of those line workers in those plants didn't show up tomorrow, it would virtually shut them down.  Half the management could not show up and you wouldn't even know it.  These companies are all extremely top heavy on management and insist on screwing down the unions to keep the bonuses coming to the top of management.  Any one who thinks 20 to  25 dollars an hour living in Detroit working 40 hrs per week is gonna get you anywhere your wrong.  Do away with the unions in this country and you just widened the gap further between the upper and lower class.-

 

[chambero]

My dad was a union worker (machinist).  So are/were most of my uncles.  I still don't like a lot of things about them.  Growing up, I knew a man in town that worked for Bell Helicopter along with several of my family members.  They were all great friends and went on hunting trips together, etc.  He was a real good guy with a house full of boys and a good wife.  I remember Bell workers used to go on strike a lot.  This guy's wife got sick with breast cancer.  Shortly thereafter the Bell workers went on strike again.  I was too young to know the exact particulars, but basically this guy had to cross the picket line to keep his money coming in to pay his wife's medical bills plus their other bills since she wasn't able to work.  I remember being shocked at how my uncles talked bad about this guy and basically treated him as a pariah for crossing the line.  I lost all respect for my uncles (this was a big enough incident that I haven't forgotten some 20 odd years later) and decided right then that a lot of unions tried to be a bunch of bullies.

That said, we can't let our auto companies go out of business.  People can do without new vehicles for a little while, but it will rebound in a big hurry one of these days as they start wearing out.  The devil is in the details on the bailout.

 

[knabe]

airlines went out of business and the planes kept flying. 

the business model is outdated.  what's the fastest path to a new business model that doens't involve folkswagens?

 

[Davis Shorthorns]

Having a union job let me say this.  I don't believe for a second there are organized labor jobs in the auto industry paying 200k a year.  i've been told the companies came up with these wage numbers by adding in pensions and benefits to put up ficticious numbers. Any time you have organized labor, unions, or agreement employees, whatever you want to call them, and then you have management who are non-agreemnet employees there become a hate betweent labor and management and the company is what suffers.  Neither cares how much they rape the company or the job they do, as long as they get one over on the other or pull more on the paycheck.  A thought, if 10 percent of those line workers in those plants didn't show up tomorrow, it would virtually shut them down.   Half the management could not show up and you wouldn't even know it.  These companies are all extremely top heavy on management and insist on screwing down the unions to keep the bonuses coming to the top of management.  Any one who thinks 20 to  25 dollars an hour living in Detroit working 40 hrs per week is gonna get you anywhere your wrong.  Do away with the unions in this country and you just widened the gap further between the upper and lower class.-

Since when is 52,000 dollars a year for unskilled labor not getting anywhere???

 

[dori36]

airlines went out of business and the planes kept flying. 

the business model is outdated.  what's the fastest path to a new business model that doens't involve folkswagens?

I agree wholeheartedly that the business model is outdated.  I could relay many, many first person accounts of the proof of that. But, I would offer that people kept flying bankrupt airlines because there weren't a lot of choices 'but' to fly them.  In the car biz, there are many choices and I believe many people would be afraid to buy from a "bankrupt" company even if it was chapter 11.  I think that would be, for better or worse, the death knell for the US auto industry.

 

[aj]

Sounds like the central planning committe will be in charge. Stalin would love this. The labor american auto workers is basically bringing the country to its knees in a round about way. I can't wait to see the car that polosie designs. It will be a doosie that no one will buy. Instead of a Lincoln we will have the Kennedy cadillac and frankster car.

 

[knabe]

folkswagen

i'm pretty sure it won't have hillborn injectors.

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/HILBORN-FUEL-INJECTION-UNIT-2-3and16-ALUMINUM-BASE-ONLY,311.html

 

[GONEWEST]

Since when is 52,000 dollars a year for unskilled labor not getting anywhere???

First, $52,000 a year is about $700 a week after taxes. Second, $700 a week doesn't go as far in the Detroit metro area as it does in East Egypt, KS. The Cost of Living Index in the Greater Detroit Metro Area is 101. The CLI for Manhattan, KS is 82. It costs 19% more just to live where the major auto makers are located. The average home loan in the GDMA is $138,000, for Manhattan, KS its $123,000 so it costs about a hundred dollars more a month to buy an "average home." And I assure you the "average home" in Detroit is nothing compared to the "average home" in Manhattan, KS. Buy a house, food, a decent vehicle and pay the light bill and $700 a week is history. Of course you can live in a dump, drive an old vehicle until the wheels fall off and all that, but that's not my idea of "getting anywhere." Nor will that kind of life style and spending fuel the economy of this country.

As far as unions go, that is an issue like abortion, very strong opinions on each side and one side will never see the other, so I won't agrgue that. I do know that union's protection of poor employees with poor work ethinc caused the closing of a plant where my father worked for 38 years. And from being in management for 25 years with several corporations I know that without the threat of organized employees, companies would never give employees a fair shake. But my note about employees not making enough at most of the jobs that are available in this country was not union related.

Recently in the Atlanta area Delta Airlines laid off 3,000 employees. It is thought that 10,000 jobs need to be created to take the place of those 3,000 as far as their effect on the local economy. And are those same 3,000 people supposed to work those 10,000 jobs?  People need to make enough money that they have extra to spend in order for the economy to function. Paying your mortgage, groceries, and the light bill will not do it. And like I mentioned before, many people here don't even make enough to qualify to get a mortgage, at least with the new banking rules in place.

Today our govenor proposed an economic stimulus package that basically builds roads and repairs school buildings. That MIGHT give a few unemployed people a JOB. Mostly it will provide more work for illegal aliens (don't get me started about the drag they have on the economy), as the companies that bid these projects the lowest always use the cheapest labor, of course.

Manufacturing in the US is for ever gone on the scale that it once was. Actually producing something of value one of the few ways a cmpany can make a profit and still provide good pay to its employees. This house of cards "service economy " has collapsed. The only way that I see to provide new jobs that pay well is for the federal government to heavily invest in energy self sufficiency. That is a sector that could provide good paying jobs for all skill levels of employees and help the country at the same time. However, I cringe at anything the deferal government might do to "help" us. Plus all this energy independence will be forgotten just like it was in the 80's if fuel continues to drop in price or stays where it is for a long period.

It's raining here, I can't do anything outside, I got all day to look up facts and argue 

 

[farwest]

Having a union job let me say this.  I don't believe for a second there are organized labor jobs in the auto industry paying 200k a year.  i've been told the companies came up with these wage numbers by adding in pensions and benefits to put up ficticious numbers. Any time you have organized labor, unions, or agreement employees, whatever you want to call them, and then you have management who are non-agreemnet employees there become a hate betweent labor and management and the company is what suffers.  Neither cares how much they rape the company or the job they do, as long as they get one over on the other or pull more on the paycheck.  A thought, if 10 percent of those line workers in those plants didn't show up tomorrow, it would virtually shut them down.   Half the management could not show up and you wouldn't even know it.  These companies are all extremely top heavy on management and insist on screwing down the unions to keep the bonuses coming to the top of management.  Any one who thinks 20 to  25 dollars an hour living in Detroit working 40 hrs per week is gonna get you anywhere your wrong.  Do away with the unions in this country and you just widened the gap further between the upper and lower class.-

Since when is 52,000 dollars a year for unskilled labor not getting anywhere???

Unskilled, hell standing in an assebly line knowing your job with 30 years experience under your belt, is that unskilled.  What you think we'll pull some educated idiot with some flimsy piece of degree from some small state university to do the job better, and that will be skilled labor.  Take the union fees, twice what social security is for retirement, state and local taxes and then what's left of that 52k.  i get a kick out of farm and ranch families, ( i'm one of them), who look at these urban wages and think it's rediculous.  There making the same thing, only it's lumped under operating and most don't know what the real cost of living would be if they were renting a house, buying groceries, making vehichle payments, utilities off of a monthly earned income.  

 

[GONEWEST]

Farwest, you gotta stop it.

You're making too much sense.

 

[Davis Shorthorns]

Since when is 52,000 dollars a year for unskilled labor not getting anywhere???

First, $52,000 a year is about $700 a week after taxes. Second, $700 a week doesn't go as far in the Detroit metro area as it does in East Egypt, KS. The Cost of Living Index in the Greater Detroit Metro Area is 101. The CLI for Manhattan, KS is 82. It costs 19% more just to live where the major auto makers are located. The average home loan in the GDMA is $138,000, for Manhattan, KS its $123,000 so it costs about a hundred dollars more a month to buy an "average home." And I assure you the "average home" in Detroit is nothing compared to the "average home" in Manhattan, KS. Buy a house, food, a decent vehicle and pay the light bill and $700 a week is history. Of course you can live in a dump, drive an old vehicle until the wheels fall off and all that, but that's not my idea of "getting anywhere." Nor will that kind of life style and spending fuel the economy of this country.

As far as unions go, that is an issue like abortion, very strong opinions on each side and one side will never see the other, so I won't agrgue that. I do know that union's protection of poor employees with poor work ethinc caused the closing of a plant where my father worked for 38 years. And from being in management for 25 years with several corporations I know that without the threat of organized employees, companies would never give employees a fair shake. But my note about employees not making enough at most of the jobs that are available in this country was not union related.

Recently in the Atlanta area Delta Airlines laid off 3,000 employees. It is thought that 10,000 jobs need to be created to take the place of those 3,000 as far as their effect on the local economy. And are those same 3,000 people supposed to work those 10,000 jobs?  People need to make enough money that they have extra to spend in order for the economy to function. Paying your mortgage, groceries, and the light bill will not do it. And like I mentioned before, many people here don't even make enough to qualify to get a mortgage, at least with the new banking rules in place.

Today our govenor proposed an economic stimulus package that basically builds roads and repairs school buildings. That MIGHT give a few unemployed people a JOB. Mostly it will provide more work for illegal aliens (don't get me started about the drag they have on the economy), as the companies that bid these projects the lowest always use the cheapest labor, of course.

Manufacturing in the US is for ever gone on the scale that it once was. Actually producing something of value one of the few ways a cmpany can make a profit and still provide good pay to its employees. This house of cards "service economy " has collapsed. The only way that I see to provide new jobs that pay well is for the federal government to heavily invest in energy self sufficiency. That is a sector that could provide good paying jobs for all skill levels of employees and help the country at the same time. However, I cringe at anything the deferal government might do to "help" us. Plus all this energy independence will be forgotten just like it was in the 80's if fuel continues to drop in price or stays where it is for a long period.

It's raining here, I can't do anything outside, I got all day to look up facts and argue 

from what I could find the average salary in Manhattan is $28,000 dollars a year that comes out to $13.46 a hour, So you add that 19 % on to that and you have $33,320.  In 2006 the average UAW made $27.81 a hour for a total of $57,844.80 a year not including benefits.  Oh and by the way I am using the wonderful world of internet to find my info so...feel free to find different numbers I bet they are out there.