New Argument....

[Torch]

I understand where you're coming from Farwest. But why is it the business owner (or management) responsibility to make sure they have something to show for their years of work?

Don't get me wrong I believe both have some. But in your example what does the business owner have to show for it if he goes out of business. Should the employees chip in and save him? Or in the current climate, should the taxpayers bail him (and the employees) out?

I had a good friend die 5 years short of retirement a few years back. He never added anything more to his 401k than the required minimum and only had the life insurance that the union had negotiated the company buy (he could have added to that too). And it's sad, he would have left nothing if it wasn't done for him. So you could say the union was worth it for him. He wouldn't save a dime, but always had a new truck, more house than his fellow employees and all the latest gadgets. Which was his right. Now his wife has had to sell it all. Is that the company's fault (he worked there 27+ years)? It shows you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. All the tools were there for him to have something to show for his work but he had the freedom to choose not to take advantage of them. Should he (us) lose that right (the right to fail) too?

It's tuff out there. That's why employees and employers should save for a rainy day. If not, the market place will swallow you whole.

Just my over simplified opinion

 

[j3cattleco]

That sounds like a real nice business you have going and i commend you for treating your employees the way you do, unfortunately it is not like that often with labor and management(ownership).  Not all are cinderella stories. If you go out of business tomorrow what security do these employees have for their 17 years.

They have the same security that I do!  The savings we have in the bank.  Spend less than you make!  That's a major lesson we try and teach all of our employees.  Even if you only put away a few dollars every payday with the power of compounding in the long run it will turn into something.  The thought of going out business, pushes us all to be better.  I don't have a bailout plan neither do they so we all put our heads together and work at being better than the day before.  It creates buy in all the way down the line,  I need them and they need me so we all work together. 

 

[itk]

I'm not a big fan of the buy out but think it is necessary for the survival of not only Detroit but most small towns in America. Overlooked in all of this are the dealerships in small towns who sell the Big 3. These dealerships help support the local economy by employing at least a dozen or so people. They are also the first to support the local schools, buy uniforms for a baseball team or the champion steer at the county fair. If they go out of business who will step up and take their place to help keep small towns alive not only financially but civically and socially as well.

For those of you trying to figure out the economy of Manhattan KS good luck. I don't even think they know what the real population of the town is. Between the college and army base it has to be one of the most fluid populations in America. Along with the people comes alot of unearned income from parents for students and the money from the government for troops, it has inflated prices significantly. I have always said if an economist wanted to become famous they should come to Manhattan and do a study on its economy. Jordy Nelson told my folks that renting a house in Green Bay was cheaper then in Manhattan, even though Green Bay is significantly larger. My guess is because in Green Bay they don't have a large student population who will get their parents to pay any price for rent or the government who will do the same for off base housing for the troops.

 

[knabe]

from what I could find the average salary in Manhattan is $28,000 dollars a year that comes out to $13.46 a hour, So you add that 19 % on to that and you have $33,320.  In 2006 the average UAW made $27.81 a hour for a total of $57,844.80 a year not including benefits.  Oh and by the way I am using the wonderful world of internet to find my info so...feel free to find different numbers I bet they are out there.   

that's why for some things, medians are better than averages to look at data.  of course averaging makes it look lower so you (not you) can generate more sympathy.

 

[knabe]

The United States of America is basically an experiment..

the US is basically a balance of power between a the spartans and the athenians with a rotating caesar to balance interests of land ownership and populism.  trouble is, the only way to claw back populism and overconsolidation is strife.

 

[knabe]

I'm not a big fan of the buy out but think it is necessary for the survival of not only Detroit but most small towns in America.

just like when rubber improved for tires allowing them to last longer in the 70's, firestone was the last to keep selling the low mileage tires for almost the same price as the better tires, but more than the cost/mile, so too has the car company business model changed.  it's time to free up all the available manpower to do something different.  there is such a low percentage of business minded people out there and basically two generations of people without the foggiest idea of what capitalism is, that i'm afraid all we are left is the government doing things for the good of the people, the very thing jefferson and franklin warned us about.

 

[Dusty]

However, trust me, if you work harder than the guy next to you, you will never ben unemployed.  At least not for very long....



You're dreamin' buddy, but that's ok. This world is real, it's mean and it's not fair. Wait unti you get to be 55 or 60 and out of work and tell everyone you worked harder and longer. On the other hand I admire your work ethic and I'm glad you have it.

I know that the world is mean and is not fair.  I go to my job every day knowing that I could be fired tomorrow for no reason or in some cases with just cause  I don't want to depend on a company for my livelihood forever.  Then you're basically a slave.  

As long as a person is not afraid to scoop %#&* , drive a truck, run a powerwasher, or cut meat in a packing house, you'll never be unemployed.  I've never worked in a packing house, I've done the other three.  I would like to think that if it came down to it, I could hang with the mexicans when it came to meat cutting.  But, from what I've heard those guys will die before they get outworked by a white man....  The point is that are always jobs available, they may not be sexy, but they are jobs and you put in enough hours doing it, you can make a living.

My grandpa was recently let go from his job at age 68.  It was the only thing he knew how to do.  He had been with the same company for 30 years. He has no intentions of retiring anytime soon...  He is basically doing freelance work right now and getting along good.  So believe me I know when it comes down to it,  to a company you are just a number, they don't care about you any more than you care about them...  

In response to j3cattle's post.  I have worked for big companies owned by thousands of stockholders, I've worked for small coops owned by less than a hundred people, and I've worked for small businesses owned by one individual or family.  I was treated best by the small businesses.  When your pay comes out of the bosses pocket they seem to be the ones that pay you for the extra effort and treat you like family...

 

[farwest]

That all sounds real good, educated opinions, former experiences whatever. FACT.  Every person on this forum pro or con if they needed work would take that 70 dollar and hour union job in a heart beat if they got the chance.  I guess it's just whatever shoe your wearnin, no different than the election i guess.  Oh and i do mean EVERY person.

 

[j3cattleco]

That all sounds real good, educated opinions, former experiences whatever. FACT.  Every person on this forum pro or con [color=yellow[b]]if [/b] [/color] they needed work would take that 70 dollar and hour union job in a heart beat if they got the chance.  I guess it's just whatever shoe your wearnin, no different than the election i guess.  Oh and i do mean EVERY person.

I guess the one thing I really appreciate is the ability for people to discuss disagreeing view points on this board and still remain civil.  The key word in your above quote is the if.  Your right if that is the ONLY job available and I needed to feed my family I would take a union job, however if their were other jobs available even at lower money I would take the non-union job.  I have turned down bigger money before and would do it again.  Not everyone is solely driven by the mighty dollar.  I know more miserable multimillionaires than I can count!  But once again that's what makes this world great, it takes all kinds to go around.  I think Farwest you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree on some points!  I do appreciate your willingness to discuss things in a civil manner even if we don't necessarily always agree. 

 

[farwest]

Another thought, these companies who have union employees are not operated with the same mentaility of small  and medium size businesses, such as the restaurant business above.  These companies are huge, there is no sense of ownership anywhere.  What will it do for the economy to take every ten employees and cut their wages by half and giv e to their one manager.  The money saved by those employees will show as profit in the company,  hurrah hurrah.  But will be paid out as huge bonuses to upper management.  So now we have 10 workers who don't have extra to fuel the economy, but this one person who acquired their wages through a bonus is going to fuel the economy same as those ten did??  Talking in circles here.  What i'm trying to say is any money saved on employees in these huge corporations will be squandered on huge bouses at the top.  Their will be no rainy day savings, if their was we wouldn't be having this conversation about the big  three.

 

[farwest]

That all sounds real good, educated opinions, former experiences whatever. FACT.  Every person on this forum pro or con [color=yellow[b]]if [/b] [/color] they needed work would take that 70 dollar and hour union job in a heart beat if they got the chance.  I guess it's just whatever shoe your wearnin, no different than the election i guess.  Oh and i do mean EVERY person.

I guess the one thing I really appreciate is the ability for people to discuss disagreeing view points on this board and still remain civil.  The key word in your above quote is the if.  Your right if that is the ONLY job available and I needed to feed my family I would take a union job, however if their were other jobs available even at lower money I would take the non-union job.  I have turned down bigger money before and would do it again.  Not everyone is solely driven by the mighty dollar.  I know more miserable multimillionaires than I can count!  But once again that's what makes this world great, it takes all kinds to go around.  I think Farwest you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree on some points!  I do appreciate your willingness to discuss things in a civil manner even if we don't necessarily always agree. 

And j3cattleco, i'm not going to call anyone a liar, but...... i find that extremely hard to believe.

 

[itk]

I'm not a big fan of the buy out but think it is necessary for the survival of not only Detroit but most small towns in America.

just like when rubber improved for tires allowing them to last longer in the 70's, firestone was the last to keep selling the low mileage tires for almost the same price as the better tires, but more than the cost/mile, so too has the car company business model changed.  it's time to free up all the available manpower to do something different.  there is such a low percentage of business minded people out there and basically two generations of people without the foggiest idea of what capitalism is, that i'm afraid all we are left is the government doing things for the good of the people, the very thing jefferson and franklin warned us about.

knabe, not fair taking one line and twisting it ;D I agree there needs to be some serious restructuring of the industry but the trickle down economics is what concerns me. Take a town of 1000 people with a small Ford dealership that employs 8 people. Most of the local farmers get their trucks from this dealership (I don't think a Toyota can haul a goose neck full of cows), every year the dealership donates $20,000 to the local school to help keep extra curricular activities going, they paid for most of the new baseball diamond and the historic town hall restoration and every year can be counted on to spend at least $5,000 at the fair auction.

Now Ford goes out of business and they have nothing to sell. They could try another brand but like I said before Toyota won't cut it in the country. The dealership closes. Students transfer to other schools to participate in activies that their old school can no longer afford. The summer ball program is dropped because they have nowhere to play and city hall crumbles. The kid who was counting on getting $2,000 for his champion steer gets $1,200 from what his parents can scrape together from what is left of the local businesses. Add to this 8 people are still looking for jobs. This is why the buy out is important not so some CEO can keep his winter house in Florida.

 

[farwest]

And for you Dusty, please spared me your educated dialogue,  can't we find something to pick on RSC about. O0 (lol)

 

[RSC]

And for you Dusty, please spared me your educated dialogue,  can't we find something to pick on RSC about. O0 (lol)

;D  Congrats Farwest,  Someone brought up a subject that put a feather in your shorts,  You have now brought yourself from a low 2 Star poster to a 3 star poster.

Good Job!  (lol)

RSC

 

[farwest]

And my karma jumped too!!!!!!  Union meeting at he Eagles at noon, free cocktails and orderves, gotta run.

 

[Dusty]

Here I thought Tony was busy studying today.....

 

[RSC]

Here I thought Tony was busy studying today.....

Ya, took a break to see what you and Ron were up to.

Who needs to watch two politicians debate,  let's get CBS to Televise a debate between Dusty and Farwest.

RSC

 

[j3cattleco]

Well Farwest I appreciate you not calling me a liar, but I would hope that if we all grow to be close enough friends by the time I die that everyone around me will call me a man of integrity.  I think we have beat a dead horse enough and I will quitely return to my life of enjoying the view points of all the other posters on Steerplanet, even if they differ from mine.

 

[aj]

Where can I get a "bridge loan to nowhere"?

 

[knabe]

apply for a grant.  there's lots of money, seriously.  all you need is an idea and some semblance of responsibility.