new shorty herd sire opinions welcome

[chrislee]

It doesn't matter how inbred a particular individual is, if they are bred to a completely unrelated animal the resulting offspring will not be inbred.

 

[r.n.reed]

Ctroidl,Where do you get this variety of genetics if nobody is out there developing their own distinct line and how do you do that with out linebreeding,Or are you advocating more crossbreeding for the Short horn breed?
Knabe,how did you come to the conclusion that JITs 2 bulls are worthy of building a linebreeding program around?

 

[obie105]

He's pretty but bulls are to be masculine. He looks like a show heifer. That would be my hang up on him. Hopefully he produces the way you want him to.

 

[RyanChandler]

Until these show breeders reroute the goal of there operations to produce a variety of genetics centered around a specific phenotype neither industry will make much improvement. I may only be seventeen years old in a business which presents endless learning, but neither linebreeding or inbreeding seem justified and thats why I will never participate in it.

Improvement is a subjective term. I'd contend that until the most rudimentary functional traits are held in higher regards than the androgynous characteristics you see here, the industry won't make much improvement- defined by me as making a contribution to beef cattle production.

Knabe,how did you come to the conclusion that JITs 2 bulls are worthy of building a linebreeding program around?

Not necessarily in response to your question, but in general, I'm curious as to what criteria you base worthiness on? Thanks

 

[justintime]

Anyone who decides to go into an extensive line breeding program, better be pretty certain of the genetics they are going to use, and be willing to cull at a higher rate than normal for the first few years. They also have to have a definite goal in mind and a pretty good idea of what the industry is demanding. It really doesn't do much good for anyone to develop a line of cattle that are deeply line bred, if no one but yourself is wanting them. We used to have a Hereford herd and we had several females that were intensely line bred to using L1 genetics. At the time, the Line 1 cattle were one of the most intensely line bred Herefords anywhere in the world. I had a set of 16 full sisters from ET that combined a very popular L1 sire and a highly regarded L1 dam. If I had to survive on the calves these cows produced I would have starved to death  very quickly. There is no other way to describe them but to say they were just plain bad!!

Personally, I don't have the time or the resources to develop an intensely line bred line using any one animal. I enjoy seeking out new genetics that I think will work for me, and matching them with other genetics. Occasionally, I do line breed certain animals but I have never done it for the generations upon generations required to produce a meaningful line bred line.

In the Shorthorn breed, Trump has been successfully line bred in many herds, and whether you like it or not, it does seem to work to produce cattle that have show ring appeal. That doesn't mean you have to use these genetics if show ring cattle don't appeal to you. Occasionally, I find cattle from these genetics that I think I can blend with some other genetics, and I have only had a couple of occasions when they did not work. I have also had the same thing happen with some cattle that combined more commercially accepted bloodlines.

Line breeding can be a very useful tool. It demands commitment, dedication and a clear vision of what your want to develop. It can also demand deep pockets to help you through the generations where you cull harder than ever before.

 

[ctroidl]

Ctroidl,Where do you get this variety of genetics if nobody is out there developing their own distinct line and how do you do that with out linebreeding,Or are you advocating more crossbreeding for the Short horn breed?
Knabe,how did you come to the conclusion that JITs 2 bulls are worthy of building a linebreeding program around?

There are good bulls and females out there that are not linebred, TM Gus 36S, ace of diamonds, many of Grants bulls, homedale creole 135, many of alta cedars bulls, many of the waukaru bulls. Definately trump produces some of the most showy offspring of any shorty sire to have ever existed, and I think his genetics can be utilized in any heard looking to produce great show steers and heifers. There is enough outcross genetics currently available to produce great show animals it just takes longer to develop offspring that can compete.

 

[ctroidl]

Also when choosing a herd bull I like to shy away from having The same genetics more than once in a pedigree,

Your assessment of the bull is spot on but this right here is  craziness to me.  Please elaborate on your position.

The bull goes back to Trump and Augusta pride 3127 on the sires and the dams side of the pedigree more than once. When the gametes unite during fertilization and chromosomes cross over, genetic information is supposed to be exchanged in order to produce variety in the offspring. When genetics of the same organism are crossed, the resulting offspring may inherit recessive mutation allels; some may be fatal, but most result in a weeker offspring.
          Elevated incidence of recessive genetic diseases

            Reduced fertility both in litter size and in sperm viability

            Increased congenital defects such as cryptorchidism, heart defects, cleft palates.

            Fluctuating assymetry (such as crooked faces, or uneven eye placement and size).

            Lower birthweight

            Higher neonatal mortality

            Slower growth rate

            Smaller adult size, and

            Loss of immune system function.

I take it you're not familiar w/ selective linebreeding to perpetuate desired qualities and characteristics???  Homozygosity and prepotency are the goals; variety is a bad thing.  If you're into show cattle, the best thing this bull calf has going for him is his stabilized, which suggests predictable, genetics.

I don't know Xbar but this quote right here is craziness to me, The main show bulls being inbred these days include heat wave for clubbies and Trump for shorthorn, from what I have seen these bulls are the farthest out of any from producing consistent offspring. They can be inbred all you want but regardless the results will not be predictable.

 

[caledon101]

I agree with just about everything stated in this thread. JIT is correct to say that you better have the right base genetics before setting out to develop a line breeding program. Personally, it doesn't appeal to me; I would rather utilize the genetic pool of diverse genes available to me.

Trump line breeding is going to continue until the calves are born with 3 eyes or, until the next new sire comes along and is somehow replaces Trump as the "go to" option.
It is interesting how devoted we are to pedigrees (which we should be!) on our animals but are less concerned about documenting the pedigrees of humans. Keeps Maury Povich and his DNA lab busy though.

 

[knabe]

Knabe,how did you come to the conclusion that JITs 2 bulls are worthy of building a linebreeding program around?

He's (majors leroy) a unique looking bull and seems everything shorthorns are not and need. He's slightly long while retaining depth and base wider w lower quarter. He's masculine and has a good topline that is smooth through his chine and to his poll with a good crest. I would make some crosses with either his dams best milking daughter or the best milking daughter from his sire or half sibs offspring. I think I would prefer the half sibs as I can't remember I didnt care too much for his sire or grandsire, I can't remember which. I would line breed him because of the bull x-bar bought and many other calves from him.

worthiness is having a combination of traits not found in general population or a trait so rare that by line breeding, other genetic material is put in that is not in the original to allow essentially an outcross from the original individual, something most people don't realize about line breeding, i.e., by a half sib cross, the resulting offspring only have half the original animal being line bred and by "outcrossing" him through line breeding, one is actually maintaining, if not increasing outcrossing and maximizing diversity while retaining the original type.  i really don't get why people don't even remotely understand line breeding.

 

[RyanChandler]

It really doesn't do much good for anyone to develop a line of cattle that are deeply line bred, if no one but yourself is wanting them.


"None but ourselves can free the mind" - Marcus Garvey


We used to have a Hereford herd and we had several females that were intensely line bred to using L1 genetics. At the time, the Line 1 cattle were one of the most intensely line bred Herefords anywhere in the world. I had a set of 16 full sisters from ET that combined a very popular L1 sire and a highly regarded L1 dam. If I had to survive on the calves these cows produced I would have starved to death  very quickly. There is no other way to describe them but to say they were just plain bad!!

Holden and Cooper seem to be getting along pretty good w/ them L1's

Also when choosing a herd bull I like to shy away from having The same genetics more than once in a pedigree,

Your assessment of the bull is spot on but this right here is  craziness to me.  Please elaborate on your position.

The bull goes back to Trump and Augusta pride 3127 on the sires and the dams side of the pedigree more than once. When the gametes unite during fertilization and chromosomes cross over, genetic information is supposed to be exchanged in order to produce variety in the offspring. When genetics of the same organism are crossed, the resulting offspring may inherit recessive mutation allels; some may be fatal, but most result in a weeker offspring.
          Elevated incidence of recessive genetic diseases

            Reduced fertility both in litter size and in sperm viability

            Increased congenital defects such as cryptorchidism, heart defects, cleft palates.

            Fluctuating assymetry (such as crooked faces, or uneven eye placement and size).

            Lower birthweight

            Higher neonatal mortality

            Slower growth rate

            Smaller adult size, and

            Loss of immune system function.

I take it you're not familiar w/ selective linebreeding to perpetuate desired qualities and characteristics???  Homozygosity and prepotency are the goals; variety is a bad thing.  If you're into show cattle, the best thing this bull calf has going for him is his stabilized, which suggests predictable, genetics.

I don't know Xbar but this quote right here is craziness to me, The main show bulls being inbred these days include heat wave for clubbies and Trump for shorthorn, from what I have seen these bulls are the farthest out of any from producing consistent offspring. They can be inbred all you want but regardless the results will not be predictable.

That's because both of those bulls are CROSSBREDS and trying to LINEBREED CROSSBREDS is like pissing in the wind! It is because of the diversity/variation within the individual's genetics that is the culprit of inconsistency!

 

[ctroidl]

[/quote]

I take it you're not familiar w/ selective linebreeding to perpetuate desired qualities and characteristics???  Homozygosity and prepotency are the goals; variety is a bad thing.  If you're into show cattle, the best thing this bull calf has going for him is his stabilized, which suggests predictable, genetics.
[/quote]


That's because both of those bulls are CROSSBREDS and trying to LINEBREED CROSSBREDS is like pissing in the wind! It is because of the diversity/variation within the individual's genetics that is the culprit of inconsistency!

I'm not trying to point the finger at anyone and call them a hypocrit, but xbar, this particular shorthorn bull is full of this "crossbred" sire known as Trump. From your discription he should be the farthest thing from consistent, yet you stated that this white bull is stabalized.

 

[caledon101]

Apart from all the dialogue and debate on this thread, I can tell you that this bull calf is the real deal. I owned his Dam and bred her for this mating. For someone wanting to add some real style, calving ease, disposition plus an airtight pedigree then I highly suggest you look closely at this individual and contact renegade. Outstanding in his pasterns also.

 

[coyote]

Are you sure you would describe him as "calving ease"? Sire: BW EPD is +3.5 80% acc.
Dam: BW EPD +5.1 100%. acc

 

[caledon101]

Absolutely I would.

 

[coyote]

Maybe my definition of calving ease is different than yours. Calving ease to me means heifer bull. I would imagine bred to cows he would have no problems.

 

[caledon101]

Let me put it this way and make it easier to understand. He was 70 lbs at birth when I found him. I carried him in my arms about 500 yards up and down hills to the shelter of the barnyard with his 1250 lb Dam following closely behind me.
His Dam is a moderate female obviously and this bull will be absolutely terrific on first calf heifers. Full stop.

 

[knabe]

his calving ease will be mostly determined by his offspring, not just his own birth weight.

 

[RyanChandler]

Let me put it this way and make it easier to understand. He was 70 lbs at birth when I found him. I carried him in my arms about 500 yards up and down hills to the shelter of the barnyard with his 1250 lb Dam following closely behind me.
His Dam is a moderate female obviously and this bull will be absolutely terrific on first calf heifers. Full stop.

I don't give a damn if he had a 20lb birthweight- there is a reason his sire- Swagger has a NEGATIVE EIGHT POINT TWO calving ease EPD that's substantiated w/ decent accuracies.  Outliers don't replicate themselves! You know what that means? It means his 70 lb bw is an exception and shouldn't be expected out of this line of cattle. His pedigree is littered w/ 100lbers and you should be flamed endlessly for trying to present ANY animal with this pedigree as a heifer safe alternative!    In the most polite way possible, liar is the perfect name for this calf!

 

[RyanChandler]

And his dam was a NEGATIVE NINE POINT FIVE calving ease EPD  (lol)  These are literally the hardest calving genetics in the entire Shorthorn breed and you have the audacity to come on here and present him as a calving ease option!? How do you sleep at night?

 

[aj]

It is my gut feeling,,,,,,color me skepical.....on the birth weight deal. You were worried about the new calfs well being yet you  just had to weigh the calf......5 miles from the barn.....before you carried it to the barn.....and it weighed exactly 70 pounds? Not 72 or 69 but 70#'s? Did you use a mechanical scale or a digital scale? Was the calf in a sling? I don't know......if someone claims his Shorthorn bull calf....herd sire material......my first inclination is tod doubt this statement.....unless he is Marty Loving or someone I damn well trust.