First of all I don't think anyone really knows for sure if this bull is safe for heifers until you breed some to him. We can make an educated guess based on his pedigree and numbers but if he weighed 70 lbs at birth, and your are willing to accept the risk, give it a try. I'd sure be checking them closer than we check ours. I would like to make a comment based on the two pictures posted. Assuming the calf is at least 6-8 months old I would expect to see more crest and other masculine features in a herd bull. Someone made the comment that he is pretty or fancy or whatever. I don't want my bulls to look pretty. I would also like to see a shorter, wider muzzle on this calf. I don't think we need any more long necked, long skulled cattle in this breed. The picture of the cow in his pedigree is probably from a few years back and we are gradually moving away from this type as a breed. I am not the most knowledgeable breeder on here but even I have heard of the Augusta Pride cow family and know they have produced numerous sale toppers and show champions. However, unless this picture was taken after an extended drought or a severe winter I would expect my mature cows to be in better body condition than this while on pasture and nursing a calf. Of course not all of our cows do this and we are still culling the odd cow based on body condition even when we have spent the last 15 or 20 years trying to breed away from this type. I still see this as the number one concern for our breed in North America. Too me it is a much bigger issue that birth weight. In fact, here in western Canada, I don't really see much of an issue with birth weights or calving ease. Remember I have never seen either of these animals in person and these comments are just based on the two pictures posted.
new shorty herd sire opinions welcome
- Thread starter renegadelivestock
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caledon101
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I don't have any pics of his Dam on my iPhone but will see if I can post one or two tonight. Just boarding a flight to Minneapolis.
We bought her for 17.5K as a calf in Ohio and she didn't disappoint us. Moderate sized female that worked hard and was well cared for.
If I owned a herd of big framed, long sided non appendix western shorthorns I would love to see his influence on them. He would probably be a total outcross on most.
And yes, all 18 wheels might fly off in every direction of the compass with huge birth weights but my guess is his calves may be considered too small if anything.
What I believe is often forgotten on this site is that the participants involved are a mix of both purebred and commercial enthusiasts.
The purebred producer pushes the envelope and tests the limits; he seeks risk. The commercial producer is generally risk averse. Makes it difficult to see the viewpoints of others with such a dichotomy.
The way I see it? If you're not living on the edge then you are probably taking up too much space. I don't mind taking calculated risks.
JIT.....It's important you begin now to document your life. You have more than enough material to generate a very interesting book. Have you started yet???
We bought her for 17.5K as a calf in Ohio and she didn't disappoint us. Moderate sized female that worked hard and was well cared for.
If I owned a herd of big framed, long sided non appendix western shorthorns I would love to see his influence on them. He would probably be a total outcross on most.
And yes, all 18 wheels might fly off in every direction of the compass with huge birth weights but my guess is his calves may be considered too small if anything.
What I believe is often forgotten on this site is that the participants involved are a mix of both purebred and commercial enthusiasts.
The purebred producer pushes the envelope and tests the limits; he seeks risk. The commercial producer is generally risk averse. Makes it difficult to see the viewpoints of others with such a dichotomy.
The way I see it? If you're not living on the edge then you are probably taking up too much space. I don't mind taking calculated risks.
JIT.....It's important you begin now to document your life. You have more than enough material to generate a very interesting book. Have you started yet???
Caledon101: Can you please elaborate on why you believe this bull is calving ease? I can understand the concept that in any business risks need to be taken, but they are usually accompanied by evidence to support your decision. The only calving ease aspect ive read about this bull is his low birth weight, but even that can be swayed by numerous factors. I think for most individuals looking at a bull with this pedigree wouldn't think twice about not using him on heifers.
cpubarn
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caledon101 said:
Sign me up!
Duncraggan
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Personally, I would rather use a bull with a 100lbs birthweight out of proven calving ease parents than a 80lbs one out of high BW and low CE parents on heifers! JMOcaledon101 said:
OKshorthorn
Well-known member
This is definitely an interesting thread!
I posted a few pictures of a Shorthorn bull that we raised awhile back. He is a full brother to one of our current herd sires who is now just over 2 years old and his first crop (only 5 calves) were all out of heifers with the exception of 1, all born unassisted. That bull was 72 pounds at birth, his full brother born in March was 84 pounds, out of the exact same recip cow. His EPD's are CE 0.1 / BW 0.7 and I personally would not market his full sib as a "heifer bull." Sure I will tell you that I am confident in breeding his genetics to heifers, but, genetically, he is not a sure fire heifer bull. And the last thing we want to do is tell someone he is safe to use, and that not be the case.
I made the mistake last year of using MAV Bellringer on a heifer, a Jakes Proud Jazz heifer, based largely on the comments made on here. Lesson learned. 111 pound bull calf 3 days early. Hard pull and the heifer still hasn't recovered fully.
We are all held responsible to the breeding decisions we choose to make. That being said, there is a large audience to this forum, and I believe we owe it to our fellow breeders to tread lightly when it comes to "calving ease."
A good example, I don't personally know "coyote" but his bull, Bonanza (a beast by the way) is a bull that by the numbers you could make a case that he would be a viable choice as a heifer bull. Coyote came on here and said he did not feel confident in using him on heifers and would only suggest 2nd calving cows. That's a stand up guy right there.
Carry on
I posted a few pictures of a Shorthorn bull that we raised awhile back. He is a full brother to one of our current herd sires who is now just over 2 years old and his first crop (only 5 calves) were all out of heifers with the exception of 1, all born unassisted. That bull was 72 pounds at birth, his full brother born in March was 84 pounds, out of the exact same recip cow. His EPD's are CE 0.1 / BW 0.7 and I personally would not market his full sib as a "heifer bull." Sure I will tell you that I am confident in breeding his genetics to heifers, but, genetically, he is not a sure fire heifer bull. And the last thing we want to do is tell someone he is safe to use, and that not be the case.
I made the mistake last year of using MAV Bellringer on a heifer, a Jakes Proud Jazz heifer, based largely on the comments made on here. Lesson learned. 111 pound bull calf 3 days early. Hard pull and the heifer still hasn't recovered fully.
We are all held responsible to the breeding decisions we choose to make. That being said, there is a large audience to this forum, and I believe we owe it to our fellow breeders to tread lightly when it comes to "calving ease."
A good example, I don't personally know "coyote" but his bull, Bonanza (a beast by the way) is a bull that by the numbers you could make a case that he would be a viable choice as a heifer bull. Coyote came on here and said he did not feel confident in using him on heifers and would only suggest 2nd calving cows. That's a stand up guy right there.
Carry on
renegadelivestock
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- 324
Caledon stated that he owned my bulls dam at one time. Neither him or myself stated that I purchased the bull from him. In actual fact I purchased the bull from a completely separate party. I bought him with the intention of using him on my dirty clubby cows. My interest in this bull is only to produce show cattle. I am certainly capable making my own breeding decisions and did not buy this bull on the advice of Caledon or anyone else. As has been stated many many times on the site by multiple posters, the trump line is predominately a show line, is there not a distinct possibility of the bw and ce statistics on these lines hving been skewed by show management, and feed programs?
knabe
Well-known member
renegadelivestock said:
Yes, but they would have been under reported by 10-20 pounds if reported at all.
Its a gamble. Use him and let us know the birth weight on every calf.
I no longer feed good in the last trimester because of this. I had two calvers by a bull +5 and the calves were +25 if not more. Probably one reason that line never got used much even though he and his dam were heavily promoted.
aj
Well-known member
I would put forth the premise that there is a beef industry. It is spread around the world. There are billions of dollars,involved,thousands of jobs. The beef industry feeds alot of people. They take poor acreages and produce a high protein product from it. They don't care if you bought a cow for 17,000 dollars. They don't care if its a grand daughter of lucy ducy domino. They don't care if you are jet setter. They sit around and make fun of show cattle.......and the new hot shot taking all the risks. That is a fact. Go ahead and take the risks......and be a leader in the show ring industry. They have their own little mini economy. Just remember that by pushing the envelope on the birth weight deal you are a joke in the beef industry. good luck with all your investments.
Davis Shorthorns
Well-known member
ok for Renegade you bought a bull that should work very well for what you say you are trying to produce. I don't know if anyone is saying anything negative about you but to me the bull is to feminine. JMO Now caledon promoting a bull like that as a un proven bull as a heifer bull is ABSURD!!! You know as well as anyone that those genetics are NOT calving ease. You might believe that just because he was 70 lbs at birth he could be ok but the odd are STRONGLY against you.
justintime
Well-known member
We can debate some of these issues until the cows come home, and I doubt if anyone will have changed their mind ... at least much. I think these debates are important as they make each of us rethink what we are doing. Where I draw the line is when the debate become personal and people start to insult each other. That is totally uncalled for... and never ends up with any good outcome.
I recently flew to a sale in Ontario, and on the flight to Toronto, I started a conversation with the man sitting beside me. He told me he had a construction business and he travelled to many places in the world to build specialized buildings. He said he had just had an amazing year... business wise, but he was really looking forward to spending the next two months at home with his family. When he asked me what I did for a living, I told him I raised cattle. His eyes lit up and he asked me what kind of cattle I raised? I told him that I raised Shorthorn cattle but over the years I had been involved in several breeds and also fed cattle for a number of years. It turned out that this man had a small farm in eastern Ontario and he had a small herd of Polled Hereford cattle. He said he loved the cattle business and was hopeful he could eventually just stay home and look after his cattle. We ended up talking for over 3 hours on the flight and at one point he said he had been criticized by his friends for buying a polled Hereford heifer for $20,000. He said that one of his friends had told him he must have lost his mind. I happened to agree with much of what the man beside me said. He said he had purchased this heifer for several reasons. Firstly, because he felt she would become a key breeding piece for the herd he hoped to work with in a few years when he could retire. He said his business had been so good, that he was now facing to pay a large amount of money in income tax, and he had decided he would put some of the tax money into a heifer that his children could show for a few years. He told me that his friend that had questioned his sanity for buying the $20,000 heifer, had just bought a new boat, so he asked him how much the boat had cost. It had cost $28,000 but he had only been able to take it out on the lake a 3 times that summer. No one questioned this man's sanity for buying a boat at a high dollar and only got to use it a few times each summer. I told this man, that it has never made any sense to me why people think you are crazy to buy a quality animal for say, $20,000 but if you bought a boat for $28,000 no one would think anything about it. The man beside me said he agreed with me and he said that we all make decisions on where we will spend our money. My point for telling this story, is that the beef industry has several parts, all of which are a part, and some of which are only loosely connected to each other. That does not make some parts good and others bad. Each and every part of this business are important and I happen to think we need people with alligator boots who are willing to pay high dollars once in awhile. I truly believe there is a trickle down affect through the beef industry when someone has a great sale or sells animals for high dollars. It is simply human nature. This is after all a business.... as well as a way of life .....but first and foremost it is a business.
I have discussed this same topic with a friend of mine who owns a local plumbing business. This friend oftentimes travels with me when I am delivering cattle, and on a trip last spring he was telling me about 3 houses being built in our small community that were costing over $1 million to build. He said that his business had got the contracts to do the plumbing and air conditioning in all 3 homes. He said that he had over $100,000 in each home so far, and that they weren't done yet. I asked him how you could get over $100,000 in plumbing in a home? My friend said that in one home, the kitchen sink they wanted had cost $4800. The bathroom taps on the sink, in another home had cost $1800.... and there were 4 bathrooms in the house. He said things like this add up quickly. To me, this is just more proof that a person can question the prices of most everything... it has been this way since time began.. and probably always will be. The cattle business is no different. There will always be people who want to raise show cattle, and there will always be people who only want to raise commercial cattle. We are all free to raise whatever we want. We also are free to use any genetics we want... even when some other people may disagree or even think we are crazy.
I recently flew to a sale in Ontario, and on the flight to Toronto, I started a conversation with the man sitting beside me. He told me he had a construction business and he travelled to many places in the world to build specialized buildings. He said he had just had an amazing year... business wise, but he was really looking forward to spending the next two months at home with his family. When he asked me what I did for a living, I told him I raised cattle. His eyes lit up and he asked me what kind of cattle I raised? I told him that I raised Shorthorn cattle but over the years I had been involved in several breeds and also fed cattle for a number of years. It turned out that this man had a small farm in eastern Ontario and he had a small herd of Polled Hereford cattle. He said he loved the cattle business and was hopeful he could eventually just stay home and look after his cattle. We ended up talking for over 3 hours on the flight and at one point he said he had been criticized by his friends for buying a polled Hereford heifer for $20,000. He said that one of his friends had told him he must have lost his mind. I happened to agree with much of what the man beside me said. He said he had purchased this heifer for several reasons. Firstly, because he felt she would become a key breeding piece for the herd he hoped to work with in a few years when he could retire. He said his business had been so good, that he was now facing to pay a large amount of money in income tax, and he had decided he would put some of the tax money into a heifer that his children could show for a few years. He told me that his friend that had questioned his sanity for buying the $20,000 heifer, had just bought a new boat, so he asked him how much the boat had cost. It had cost $28,000 but he had only been able to take it out on the lake a 3 times that summer. No one questioned this man's sanity for buying a boat at a high dollar and only got to use it a few times each summer. I told this man, that it has never made any sense to me why people think you are crazy to buy a quality animal for say, $20,000 but if you bought a boat for $28,000 no one would think anything about it. The man beside me said he agreed with me and he said that we all make decisions on where we will spend our money. My point for telling this story, is that the beef industry has several parts, all of which are a part, and some of which are only loosely connected to each other. That does not make some parts good and others bad. Each and every part of this business are important and I happen to think we need people with alligator boots who are willing to pay high dollars once in awhile. I truly believe there is a trickle down affect through the beef industry when someone has a great sale or sells animals for high dollars. It is simply human nature. This is after all a business.... as well as a way of life .....but first and foremost it is a business.
I have discussed this same topic with a friend of mine who owns a local plumbing business. This friend oftentimes travels with me when I am delivering cattle, and on a trip last spring he was telling me about 3 houses being built in our small community that were costing over $1 million to build. He said that his business had got the contracts to do the plumbing and air conditioning in all 3 homes. He said that he had over $100,000 in each home so far, and that they weren't done yet. I asked him how you could get over $100,000 in plumbing in a home? My friend said that in one home, the kitchen sink they wanted had cost $4800. The bathroom taps on the sink, in another home had cost $1800.... and there were 4 bathrooms in the house. He said things like this add up quickly. To me, this is just more proof that a person can question the prices of most everything... it has been this way since time began.. and probably always will be. The cattle business is no different. There will always be people who want to raise show cattle, and there will always be people who only want to raise commercial cattle. We are all free to raise whatever we want. We also are free to use any genetics we want... even when some other people may disagree or even think we are crazy.
knabe
Well-known member
There is far more outrage on what people make and spend their money on than what the government spends our money on.
Ask someone to give up a subsidy and they scrwm bloody murder. Just look at iowa and ethanol subsidy. Sad.
Its more important to build a regime.
Ask someone to give up a subsidy and they scrwm bloody murder. Just look at iowa and ethanol subsidy. Sad.
Its more important to build a regime.
caledon101
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rule # 1 ....people buy for THEIR OWN reasons; not yours.
rule # 2.....and, people buy it the WAY they want to; not yours.
Any respectable, successful seller understands this.
EVERY dollar that is invested in ANY aspect of the beef industry is good news. It all cascades down eventually.
The Hereford breeder isn't the enemy of the Simmental breeder. The commerical man isn't the enemy of the purbred hobbyist either.
The REAL enemy is pork, chicken and fish.
rule # 2.....and, people buy it the WAY they want to; not yours.
Any respectable, successful seller understands this.
EVERY dollar that is invested in ANY aspect of the beef industry is good news. It all cascades down eventually.
The Hereford breeder isn't the enemy of the Simmental breeder. The commerical man isn't the enemy of the purbred hobbyist either.
The REAL enemy is pork, chicken and fish.
knabe
Well-known member
The friend of protein is its closeness to photosynthesis.
uluru
Well-known member
Well said Grant
I do what I do because I can
Sometimes it doesn't make any sense to many or even to me and usually not to my Accountant
I can relate very well to boats versus cattle and I have had great fun and satisfaction with both and I still do.
Are either a good investment????? Not the way I have done it.
Not everything you do has to be a money maker all the time.
Relax, have some fun on occasion as long as you don't negatively impact your family and others.
Bob
I do what I do because I can
Sometimes it doesn't make any sense to many or even to me and usually not to my Accountant
I can relate very well to boats versus cattle and I have had great fun and satisfaction with both and I still do.
Are either a good investment????? Not the way I have done it.
Not everything you do has to be a money maker all the time.
Relax, have some fun on occasion as long as you don't negatively impact your family and others.
Bob
caledon101
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Bang on Bob!
Some of us do this for the pleasure and fun derived. After a long day at work what could be more relaxing on a summer evening than a walk through the pasture? Good mental health!
Some of us do this for the pleasure and fun derived. After a long day at work what could be more relaxing on a summer evening than a walk through the pasture? Good mental health!
aj
Well-known member
Pork ,fish, and chicken are NO ones enemies. They are food. People who don't eat die. They all compete for the dollar as a source of protein..
justintime
Well-known member
aj said:
aj... are you saying that you actually eat... OMG do I have to say it!... Chicken?
knabe
Well-known member
justintime said:
Only from low bw proven roosters with over 1000 offspring.
coyote
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What came first the chicken or the egg?
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