aj
Well-known member
Man...you blue bloods crack me up. I spose Cagwin is going to hire a exc to throw him out of the book.Jesus Christ!
NW Bull Bracket RND#1 Gizmo 35 vs Jakes Proud Jazz 34
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Doc
Well-known member
aj said:
Hey , Thanks for the compliment. I think I'm probably the 1st person from TN to be called a blue blood. I've been called a lot of things before but not that. I didn't realize that Cagwin wanted him kicked out. All I was saying was that here in TN when you add 7/8 to 15/16 you don't get 15/16 or purebred status(100% as on his pedigree). But maybe you can show me where you add fractions in KS different & I'm wrong. ;D
justintime
Well-known member
aj...... I was asking for some help in figuring this out... I was not suggesting anything one way or another. I tried to figure his pedigree out and I was coming up with 7/8 for his sire, adn 7/8 for his dam ... which in my world makes a 7/8 calf when the two are crossed. Over the past 2 or 3 years I have heard some rumors that I was unsure of , and I recallled them when I was reading this post. I went to the ASA site and looked up his pedigree... so I asked the elite members of SP to explain this pedigree to me. On the ASA website, it says he is 100% pure.... which even I can see is not correct.
I am just wanting a simple explaination, nothing more. If he has been registered as 100% pure, I( and many other breeders) may have some percentage cattle that I can register at the same levels. If there is an explanation, let's here it, so that these rumors can be stopped in their tracks.
As far as being a blue blood, I am not sure if that is a compliment or not. I am going to take it as a compliment, so thanks!!!!
I am just wanting a simple explaination, nothing more. If he has been registered as 100% pure, I( and many other breeders) may have some percentage cattle that I can register at the same levels. If there is an explanation, let's here it, so that these rumors can be stopped in their tracks.
As far as being a blue blood, I am not sure if that is a compliment or not. I am going to take it as a compliment, so thanks!!!!
justintime
Well-known member
forgot to ask aj.... what has Cagwin got to do with this discussion? As I mentioned to you last week, I have spoke with Cagwin about JPJ and he has not said anything other than he felt breeders should be selective as to what they breed to him. ( this is probably the same thing you could say about any sire). I spent 3 days in Quebec with Cagwin last weekend, and we again discussed many sires and bloodlines. Again, this hatred you claim he has for JPJ never came up.
DLD
Well-known member
Wow, thank you all for your interest.
I don't have papers on the calf's mother (we're working on that now) - all I know is that she is a JPJ and that she came as a baby on the original group of Shorthorn cows that Dustin Glover bought from Ohlde. Dustin told me once how her mother was bred, but it was nothing I was familiar with, so I don't remember. We cut the calf quite awhile ago, because we felt that his greater value to us was as a show steer. I haven't taken any more recent pics, but I'll try to do that after we get back from Tulsa. As I said, we're going to attempt to flush the cow back to Gizmo and put in some fresh embryos for early September calves, so hopefully there'll be more where he came from.
I don't have papers on the calf's mother (we're working on that now) - all I know is that she is a JPJ and that she came as a baby on the original group of Shorthorn cows that Dustin Glover bought from Ohlde. Dustin told me once how her mother was bred, but it was nothing I was familiar with, so I don't remember. We cut the calf quite awhile ago, because we felt that his greater value to us was as a show steer. I haven't taken any more recent pics, but I'll try to do that after we get back from Tulsa. As I said, we're going to attempt to flush the cow back to Gizmo and put in some fresh embryos for early September calves, so hopefully there'll be more where he came from.
aj
Well-known member
O.K. I'll probably get killed for this. But I got a toothach and a migrain and I don't care if I get assasinated or not.jit...I guess I question your legitimacy. |You sold a bull to a commercial guy for 20,000$..then you changed the story to 7 commercial guys then you changed the story to 6 purebred guys and one commercial guy. What am I to think?I still have no idea what the commercial situation is in Canada but it is as different as the moon to my enviroment. I've had 7 firms e-mail me that said you are a Cagwin cronie What am I to think?I don't give a damn about you guys in the inner circle. Hell I like Cagwin I'd probably buy him a scotch if I saw him in a bar. I just get puking sick when some guy from Canada or the east coast tells me what kinda cattle I should raise or that some some bull that makes sense is put down cause he is not pure enough. You guys are scared to death that we are going to downsize cattle from the 1800# cow to something that fits the real world.It used to be the top states for cow production were Texas,Nebraska,Missouri, and Kansas. Doc... I forget where you live but yout state from a industry level doesn't exist. I bet Florida has more cows( they actually rank up there pretty good. I hope and wish the best for you guys and I hope Cagwin lives to be 110 but I do hope ype you showring people beat the hell out of each other untill the big cities swallow up your pasture land. I think Gismo and Jakes Proud Jazz have the potential to save the breed. I don't give a damn how pure he is on paper...He's pure than the old enticer bull as you said.You guys piss me off I guess. But we wouldn't want to change the direction of the showring or you guys couldn't play cowboy any more. I better shut up an check on my will I guess. I'll unplug my computer and make my peace with the lord. I apologize for getting nasty.
justintime
Well-known member
aj... I had no intention to get you upset. I never intended to have this happen. Maybe I shouldn't have asked the question I did, but I still think it was a legitimate question. The conversation in this thread was about JPJ, and I remembered hearing at least two or three years ago, that there was some issues in getting the bull registered, so I looked his pedigree up. I saw that he is registered at 100%. I could not figure out why he was at this level, so I asked for some help from the SP gang.THAT IS ALL I ASKED!!!! If you re read my original thread on this topic, I was asking for some help.... nothing more.
YOU came back with a response that I thought was not called for. What I am really concerned with in your response is you are questioning my integrity, and that is something that I hold as the most important asset I own. As for me being a Cagwin crony, that is almost laughable. I have known Don Cagwin for many years, simply because we are in the same business. I had not spoke to him or seen him in almost two years, until labour Day weekend when I attended a group of sales in the Midwest. His sale was one of them. I happened to run into him again last weekend at a sale in Quebec. We do not travel in the same circles, unless you call running into each other at some cattle sales as being cronies.
I would hope you would go back and re read some of my responses on here. I have never tried to tell you or anyone on here, what type of cattle you want to raise. If anything, I have tried to tell everyone that it is a free world and anyone should be able to raise what they want. I have said on many occasions that if you can make a living from the type of cattle you want to raise, then who am I to say you are wrong. I only ask that you do the same for me. You seem to take most everything I say as being a slam on you, and I want you to know that I have never intended that, and if that is what you truly think, well, what can I say. I am sorry you feel this way. Believe me, that is NOT what I have intended. I have never told anyone what they should or should not raise. If anything I have been trying to urge everyone to allow anyone to raise what they want. I have been trying to say that we need ALL segments in this breed. We really need to get over this insanity regarding show ring vs commercial related cattle. There is more than enough room for everyone. I am really getting concerned about the level to which this insanity has risen too.
I have not said anything derogatory about the breeding ability of Gizmo or JPJ. Personally, I think Gizmo is one of the greatest bulls of the past 20 years to come into the breed. I wish we had more of them like this. I guess I do not have an opinion yet on where JPJ will end up in breed history. That will be decided by time, and by his offspring coming into production. I said in an earlier thread that I have not seen JPJ in person, and I have only seen 4 offspring. That is not enough to make any decision on. The only thing I have said that if he is a small frame, as we have heard he is, we maybe should be careful to mate him properly. I maybe get a little panic attack when I see cattle getting too small, as I am old enough to remember the small frame era and I saw it almost destroy this breed. That is not to say that I do not think we need to downsize our cows. I think we need to moderate most of our cows. All I am saying is let us all remember some of the mistakes of the past. I don't think this is a slam on anyone, or any blood line.
You seem to think that I am a show oriented person. That is totally wrong and I have no idea where you would get such an idea. I normally show at one show a year, that being Canadian Western Agribition.Three years ago, we also went to our National show in Edmonton. When I was younger, we used to occasionally go to Denver, but these trips were mainly designed to sell bulls or semen. I truly wish I could never go to another show, but it is a very valuable marketing tool for our operation. It is more about being visible than winning any ribbons.Sure, we believe if we have to do the show thing, we better make it as good an effort as we can. That is simple economic reasoning. It is a very expensive part of our operation, but it is a necessary evil. The main focus of our operation is producing cattle for the commercial industry. My main goal for the past 20 years has been to develop a commercial bull trade, and this is one of my most valuable things I have ever done. We have seen our commercial bull sales increase over the past several years, and I consider that 10000 times more important than any ribbon I have ever won... or ever would win. I probably will never prove to you that we had a $20,000 bull in our bull sale last spring. I had absolutely nothing to do with this, and I will tell you that 3 hours before the sale, I was trying to decide in my own mind if I should put a floor price on him, as I thought he was probably the best bull I had ever produced. I thought he was good enough that if he did not sell for a relatively good price, that I could find a pasture for him to work in. What happened was beyond anything I could have ever imagined, and believe me, it was real. I am probably wasting my fingers here, as I think you have made up your mind and will never believe me. Quite frankly, I don't understand what is so incredible about a group of people paying $20,000 for any animal, especially in the world we live in with $40,000 pick up trucks, $400,000 combines, $1400/Ton fertilizer, etc etc etc. In any event, it is your choice whether you ever believe me or not. I would only ask that you please refrain from ever questioning my honesty and integrity on here ,or anyplace else for that matter, in the future.
In closing, I never wanted to have this discussion end up in this type of response. I debated whether i should even respond, but decided that you have made some accusations in public that I needed to respond too. I decided that seeing your accusations were in public, that I almost had to respond on here. Some who read this may feel that I should have responded in a PM, and I considered this. My feeling was that by not responding on here, it would appear that what aj has said, must be true, as I had made no attempt to set the record straight. I do not think that SP is a place for personal attacks. I hope what I have wrote, or am presently writing, is considered to be a personal attack on anyone or anything. This started with what I consider a simple question, that being, can anyone explain how JPJ is registered at 100%. This is not a slam... it is a simple question, and one that I feel that as a breeder, I should have the answer too.
aj... I hope you get your toothache fixed and I hope you find relief for your migraine. I hope you will understand that I mean you no harm. I am probably your biggest fan, if you are able to raise any type of cattle you want to, and are able to make a living doing so.
YOU came back with a response that I thought was not called for. What I am really concerned with in your response is you are questioning my integrity, and that is something that I hold as the most important asset I own. As for me being a Cagwin crony, that is almost laughable. I have known Don Cagwin for many years, simply because we are in the same business. I had not spoke to him or seen him in almost two years, until labour Day weekend when I attended a group of sales in the Midwest. His sale was one of them. I happened to run into him again last weekend at a sale in Quebec. We do not travel in the same circles, unless you call running into each other at some cattle sales as being cronies.
I would hope you would go back and re read some of my responses on here. I have never tried to tell you or anyone on here, what type of cattle you want to raise. If anything, I have tried to tell everyone that it is a free world and anyone should be able to raise what they want. I have said on many occasions that if you can make a living from the type of cattle you want to raise, then who am I to say you are wrong. I only ask that you do the same for me. You seem to take most everything I say as being a slam on you, and I want you to know that I have never intended that, and if that is what you truly think, well, what can I say. I am sorry you feel this way. Believe me, that is NOT what I have intended. I have never told anyone what they should or should not raise. If anything I have been trying to urge everyone to allow anyone to raise what they want. I have been trying to say that we need ALL segments in this breed. We really need to get over this insanity regarding show ring vs commercial related cattle. There is more than enough room for everyone. I am really getting concerned about the level to which this insanity has risen too.
I have not said anything derogatory about the breeding ability of Gizmo or JPJ. Personally, I think Gizmo is one of the greatest bulls of the past 20 years to come into the breed. I wish we had more of them like this. I guess I do not have an opinion yet on where JPJ will end up in breed history. That will be decided by time, and by his offspring coming into production. I said in an earlier thread that I have not seen JPJ in person, and I have only seen 4 offspring. That is not enough to make any decision on. The only thing I have said that if he is a small frame, as we have heard he is, we maybe should be careful to mate him properly. I maybe get a little panic attack when I see cattle getting too small, as I am old enough to remember the small frame era and I saw it almost destroy this breed. That is not to say that I do not think we need to downsize our cows. I think we need to moderate most of our cows. All I am saying is let us all remember some of the mistakes of the past. I don't think this is a slam on anyone, or any blood line.
You seem to think that I am a show oriented person. That is totally wrong and I have no idea where you would get such an idea. I normally show at one show a year, that being Canadian Western Agribition.Three years ago, we also went to our National show in Edmonton. When I was younger, we used to occasionally go to Denver, but these trips were mainly designed to sell bulls or semen. I truly wish I could never go to another show, but it is a very valuable marketing tool for our operation. It is more about being visible than winning any ribbons.Sure, we believe if we have to do the show thing, we better make it as good an effort as we can. That is simple economic reasoning. It is a very expensive part of our operation, but it is a necessary evil. The main focus of our operation is producing cattle for the commercial industry. My main goal for the past 20 years has been to develop a commercial bull trade, and this is one of my most valuable things I have ever done. We have seen our commercial bull sales increase over the past several years, and I consider that 10000 times more important than any ribbon I have ever won... or ever would win. I probably will never prove to you that we had a $20,000 bull in our bull sale last spring. I had absolutely nothing to do with this, and I will tell you that 3 hours before the sale, I was trying to decide in my own mind if I should put a floor price on him, as I thought he was probably the best bull I had ever produced. I thought he was good enough that if he did not sell for a relatively good price, that I could find a pasture for him to work in. What happened was beyond anything I could have ever imagined, and believe me, it was real. I am probably wasting my fingers here, as I think you have made up your mind and will never believe me. Quite frankly, I don't understand what is so incredible about a group of people paying $20,000 for any animal, especially in the world we live in with $40,000 pick up trucks, $400,000 combines, $1400/Ton fertilizer, etc etc etc. In any event, it is your choice whether you ever believe me or not. I would only ask that you please refrain from ever questioning my honesty and integrity on here ,or anyplace else for that matter, in the future.
In closing, I never wanted to have this discussion end up in this type of response. I debated whether i should even respond, but decided that you have made some accusations in public that I needed to respond too. I decided that seeing your accusations were in public, that I almost had to respond on here. Some who read this may feel that I should have responded in a PM, and I considered this. My feeling was that by not responding on here, it would appear that what aj has said, must be true, as I had made no attempt to set the record straight. I do not think that SP is a place for personal attacks. I hope what I have wrote, or am presently writing, is considered to be a personal attack on anyone or anything. This started with what I consider a simple question, that being, can anyone explain how JPJ is registered at 100%. This is not a slam... it is a simple question, and one that I feel that as a breeder, I should have the answer too.
aj... I hope you get your toothache fixed and I hope you find relief for your migraine. I hope you will understand that I mean you no harm. I am probably your biggest fan, if you are able to raise any type of cattle you want to, and are able to make a living doing so.
justintime
Well-known member
DLD... the calf you pictured is a good one. The real good ones usually look good from day 1... and this calf appears to have " the look".
Oh Breeder.... please clone your heifer a few times for us all.
Oh Breeder.... please clone your heifer a few times for us all.
yuppiecowboy
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2007
- Messages
- 341
JIT, there is nothing wrong with your math, just the association's version of fractionalized parentage. Once you hit 15/16 you are PB and its a clean slate. Breed 7/8 to 15/16 and you get? PB. Mathematically it doesnt make sense but they had to make the line at PB somewhere and 15/16 is as good as any.
DLD said:
That's a helluva a calf and I imagine he would be bring a good price. But like you said when you're 9 money is no big deal. I think if you could get a good price your son would appreciate that money in 10 years when he's in college and would probably thank you for selling his good calf when he was 9 years old. You would also teach him a good lesson in that you should never fall in love with any animal. Everything's for sale for the right price in my book.
OH Breeder
Well-known member
aj said:
This is what I don't get. Look at the sales results from sale at Little Cedar. here in a few weeks look at the sales results from Sullivan's. You will see 30K, 50K, 60K all over the place. GOOD for those folks. What the heck is 20? No not a big deal.
Why would you wish ill on another person? Cities take land? If that is the case, they why would you market for " fits the club calf deal" Seems kind of ironic that you are putting down one "group"yet you are willing to profit from them ???
I am not a math wiz. I can't do fractions so someone else will have to explain that.Mentally challenged with math.
I used JPJ and GIZMO. Like others have said, this will be our first go around. Jury still out in my small mind. I am VERy pleased with Gizmo. :-\
Headaches can be caused by a variety of reasons. Obivously the most common is stress and tension. But with the weather changing you might want to consider the sinus's. Take some Clariton, have a cup of hot tea with honey and whiskey, and go to bed.Alcohol helps relax muscles and especially the smooth muscles in the body. Your head ache may go away and MAYBE you can be a little kinder.
We all can't live "out west" or on a "ranch". If that were the case you would have some mighty close neighbors. ;D
knabe
Well-known member
OH Breeder said:
uh, living out west just doesn't seem to mean what it used to. ;D
justintime
Well-known member
Thank you yuppiecowboy for answering my question. I did not know that by crossing a 15/16 on a purebred that you could have a purebred in the ASA herd book.I only wish you could have answered earlier and we could have eliminated some of the threads above. Thanks again!
Doc
Well-known member
aj said:
aj, I went back & looked .JIT has never changed his story, at my request back in April I asked for some sale results. On 4/20/08 JIT posted that a group of 8 commercial guys & purebred breeders bought the bull. On another date when you questioned JIT's integrity he explained to you that there was 2 groups of people really interested in the bull in the sale. One was a group of 7 & one aa group of 5 & that he was going to retain an interest & so that would make him either the 8th or 6th breeder, depending on which group ended up with him. Maybe this is where your confusion is coming from. You say yourself that you have no idea what the commercial enviroment in Canada is, but yet question that a comm. breeder would spend that kind of money. I think that JPJ & Gizmo both have a place in our breed , but I don't know that they'll be the salvation. I think that there is going to be a lot of people in the next 8 months disappointed in some JPJ calves , only because he got bred to everything out there , not stopping & thinking what he would work on.
I've only known JIT a short time , but I've known the name & ranch name for a long time & have never heard anything but good things about them.
I too suffer from migraines & can say that if I had a full fledged one going I couldn't begin to be on this computer. Hope your headache gets better.
aj
Well-known member
jit is a gentleman and he is a goldmine of information. I stand humbly corrected as usual. I hate when the board gets to be a mutual admiration society though. I stand by my thoughts that 1800# won't work in the natural world. If our Shorthorn cattle are so great why don't we dominate bull test stations like the (is it the Midland bull test). They put like 3,000 bulls on test of 15 breeds. There is no hair and no sibs to national champs and no artificial wda crap. It is all carcass data performance on feed and whatnot. There is no truth in advertising in the purebred bussiness.So long live Trump and Rodeo Drive cattle.Proud jazz sucks. I just don't understand why the ABS catalog isn't filled with great(PERFORMANCE) cattle shorthorn blooded.The commercial cattle producers are so stupid. If they would only use the genetics we suggest to them the Shorthorn breed would dominate the hillsides of the U.S. ???Do you think Cagwin would let me sell a Durham Red bull in the Denver sale this year along with all the trump-rodeo drive flushes,embryo's,semen and clones?...probably not. ;D
aj
Well-known member
As far as ohlde is concerned I have heard one story about him trying to get cattle into a book.I don't really know Ohlde's but doesn't he have a line of Angus cattle cattle called angus II or something.Bolz or fink or ohbama or someone told me he almost got the angus 2 line back in the Angus book. He was like one director vote short or something.Ankony or some one shut it down. I may be wrong...but the Angus 2 was a program where Amerifax was incorporated? He did it above board unlike another 999 people did not do. He is a innovator. I heard he was like 18 years old when he imported Ildeno...he was just a kid. Thank god there are people who think outside the box once in a while. He also imported dividend(irish shorthorn) or improver or some bull. I know dick judy of mankato ended up with dividend.Dividend was eventually allowed in the book. I know Virgil wegener looked at Dividend but didn't like his hind legs. Then they sold a million$ worth of semen on him once they got him in the book. It probably was the 1970's. I'm sure Ohlde has done something wrong cause he has had his hand in alot of things. Maybe we could form a blue ribbon commission to check things out once they get get fannie mae worked over.I was thing the vote to put the maines in the shorthorn book was like 5 to three or something like that. I think Hunsley was in charge at the time. I think it happened late 70's or early 80's. I know it caused a civil war within the breed as such for a while. One thing people forget is when the exotic cattle started coming in, there was a major panic and a shift in breeding programs. When Joe Lewis used a crossbred calf in the Denver in the 70's the establishment was turned upside down basically. Now I think we have gone full circle and are trying to moderate cattle again. I pray that all breeds keep a gene pool of different type of cattle to be used as economic conditions change. The only breeds who didn't have an appendix program were the what...Angus,Herfords? I admire them for that but I think they both ended up with illegal appendix programs after it is all said and done with. Breed cattle the way you want to and the way economic conditions dictate. Don't take marching orders from anyone...especially some dumbass from Kansas.
knabe
Well-known member
aj said:
didn't ankony have to petition to get in the herd book?
angus 2 is a maintainer type program by the AAA they didn't use so ohlde asked if he could use the name for his amerifax based cattle.
yuppiecowboy
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2007
- Messages
- 341
AJ, you have a whole honey wagon of almost truth. Problem is you are close enough to truth you could do some hurt to some folks AKA "lible"
Facts as I know... Dividend (aka Deerpark Leader 13) and Deerpark Improver were part of the first shipment of preety shorthornish colored cattle floated over from the land of bad whiskey. After that every Green roan lump of birthday remnant was considered great till 88 or so. At the same time. Shithorns were trying to corner the ever lucrative stew meat market by introducing Milking Shorthorns into the book. After this debacle of chasing Chianina's flashing glory was deemed a bad idea, the french surrender monkeys version of a Shithorn was welcomed into the Coates herd book with welcome arms as 3/4.
Hey, at least they werent Irish.
BTW Deerpark Tulip 5th was on the same boat as divy and the imp, and she is prolly the best cow that ever ate grass. T90 could carry her water.
Facts as I know... Dividend (aka Deerpark Leader 13) and Deerpark Improver were part of the first shipment of preety shorthornish colored cattle floated over from the land of bad whiskey. After that every Green roan lump of birthday remnant was considered great till 88 or so. At the same time. Shithorns were trying to corner the ever lucrative stew meat market by introducing Milking Shorthorns into the book. After this debacle of chasing Chianina's flashing glory was deemed a bad idea, the french surrender monkeys version of a Shithorn was welcomed into the Coates herd book with welcome arms as 3/4.
Hey, at least they werent Irish.
BTW Deerpark Tulip 5th was on the same boat as divy and the imp, and she is prolly the best cow that ever ate grass. T90 could carry her water.
aj
Well-known member
Atta boy...I stand corrected....whatever you said.
yuppiecowboy
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2007
- Messages
- 341
Sorry Aj if the venom of my hatred for shithorns impeded my script being consumable.
