Pedigree-O-philes start your engines - the hunt continues

Help Support Steer Planet:

red

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 20, 2007
Messages
7,850
Location
LaRue, Ohio
Same here Jill, I guess I thought they were still testing ET calves.
Since we've sold our embryous to others, I haven't registered an ET calf myself for a while.

Red
 

DL

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 29, 2007
Messages
3,622
ELBEE said:
I've asked the same question on the Shorthorn deal. I believe if every AI and ET animal were parentally verified, it could be called forced honesty. I can see a financial issue with natural breds, but AI and ET parental tests costing too much is a lame excuse. Associations could add the cost to they're certs.

I also believe the technology is there to determine parentage, deceased, by testing multiple siblings.

Parentage or parental verification - maybe we can get Dr B (or genes or knabe) to jump in here - my understanding is that you can use it to exclude a parent but otherwise you look at  some number of markers between the parent and the offspring and if a certain (arbitrary?) number match you can say (something like) Fred's DNA profile is consistent with George being his sire (but unlike CSI it doesn't prove it - it would be his brother!) and if they don't match you say George is excluded as Fred's sire.

It would be a whole lot easier if people were just honest! We don't have AI or ET certificates in the Maines so venturing into the ASA was an interesting and eye opening experience - "Hi I used your bull and now I want to register the calf " - "Sent me $25" - (it was much more pleasant than that but something we in the AMAA aren' t used to!!)
 

Telos

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 4, 2007
Messages
2,267
Location
Dallas, Texas
If Roots' pedigree is correct, then Polleroid could be the culprit. The OCC cow in his pedigree goes back to Univers 15 and I'm still firm on him being a potential carrier.
Bar UJ Allen we've researched him a little and he could still be a culprit, but unlikely in my opinion.

The maine thing which is somewhat confusing... You'd think we would have gotten some reports on Polleroid by now, but anything is possible.

It sure would be nice if Mark Mueller would tell us of what he thinks... or even knows.

I think there are some other lines in the Maine breed which are carriers, but it seems like some other potential culprits are not being DNA tested.

I was at Denver when Russ sold RSCC Roots and really liked him. He goes back to two of Midas's  best looking  cow offspring.
Some people consider 224X and the 251 cow to be some of Midas's best two cows.

Did Midas ever get DNA tested? He too goes back to Univers 15 through NBB Dalton.

I agree DL, life is interesting.

 

Telos

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 4, 2007
Messages
2,267
Location
Dallas, Texas
There is absolutely no question in my mind that doesn't think some of these breeders could give us  all the answers to our questions, but it's kind of fun playing "detective". Don't you think?

This is all shaping up to be a "who done it" type of suspense-thriller-mystery Novel!

I can see it now... DL with the PHA patrol as co-authors on the "Best Sellers" list.
 

knabe

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
13,639
Location
Hollister, CA
my midas cow is clean.

Right DL on not ever being able to prove.  there isn't much statistical difference between a 1 in 10 billion vs a 1 in a 100 billion chance that OJ wasn't the killer, but it was a mistake in the trial that my old stats professor made that was enough to make the jury "doubt" the dna evidence.

In our science seminars, we always say, you can never prove anything, you can only fail to disprove.  that's why it's always important to maintain the idendity of the samples as they move through the process, and pedrigrees, frankly are not a good repositor.  I find it just as important to maintain sample integrity as expermental quality.  so does fornensics, which is why that would be a good job to have if you can put up with the court time and not having to deal with people like nifong.  lots of sample id's have caused lots of problems in sequencing the human geneome, particularly in the early days when samples moved between centers and contamination for other genomes got into the mix.  interesting side bar here is that even thought the genome is finished, there are lots of undiscovered SNP's yet to be discovered because  it is not possible to sequence the same haploid representative on all the genome.  even between the two haploids there will be snps between each other and during the discovery phase, some will be missed depending on which haploid was used.  This is one reason Maines and shorthorns were so lucky that only were PHA and TH single genes, but that probably both haploids were used to help discover the gene becuase the "cow" wasn't sequenced yet and a mapping process was used,  if not, then luckier still.  barrel racer could elaborate on that some day when the PHA paper can come out.  that's going to be big news.
 

knabe

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
13,639
Location
Hollister, CA
interview with my old prof about how many markers are needed to tell individuals apart, but not if they are related, though similar.  if lines get inbred enough, there may be a problem and we need more markers.
http://www.accessexcellence.org/WN/NM/interview_dr_bruce_weir.html
 

Gypsy

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 21, 2007
Messages
171
dragon lady said:
OH be still my beating heart - I have never heard of a PHA calf from Polleroid either BUT he is the only easily available animal on that pedigree who hasn't been tested - hence my thought of sending semen to Dr B. I think he was used quite a bit, but maybe heavily is a bit too strong?? - and although Diamond M used him (should go back thru their old sale catalogs) they didn't as I recall cross him with DP genetics......so we test him. And remember just having one or 2 Polleroids who are clean (and I do too Gypsy) doesn't really mean a thing statistically (although it is important personally!)...... (cow)

ps - We don't  have to submit DNA to register ET calves - it is the the donors and the sires......as long as they are on record we can register the calves.

Okay DL - I cannot remember disagreeing with you over much of anything, BUT this time I'm going to have to!  When you say "having one or 2 Polleroids who are clean"..."doesn't really mean a thing statistically" you are forgetting who you are dealing with here, that is probably correct with most people, not with me!  Lately my personal motto's are "What EVER can POSSIBLY go wrong DID go wrong! And, stuff (this is a substitute word) happens to me (and my cattle).  If there is any possible way for one of my animals to be a carrier, they are!  Statistics and probabilities be damned.  I am sending you an e-mail about what happened to my fall calving herd as proof positive about my current "luck". 

I'm standing by my prediction that Polleroid is clean, but the more animals tested the better!
 

DL

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 29, 2007
Messages
3,622
Gypsy - I work with a producer who swears aliens land at his place - if a wierd thing is going to happen it happens to him. I bet the aliens stop at your ranch first! The Polleroid semen is ready to mail tomorrow...glad your Polleroid cows are clean, glad mine are too! I do not think Midas has ever been tested, I might be able toscrounge up enough Midas, Magic, and Power Plant from that which is left over in the straws (who said you shouldn't save everything!). Don't know if we can find any Dalton or Duke of Heaven, both of whom were sired by Univers 15 .....may the aliens avoid your cattle!

ps thanks kanabe, now if I can turn you into a Sabres fan!


(cow) you may think this is a cow but beware it is an alien!
 

Telos

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 4, 2007
Messages
2,267
Location
Dallas, Texas
So now it looks like we're back to more of the elimination routine.

Get Polleroid and Midas tested. If clean, then you'd probably have to look at Bar UJ Allen.
Both RSCC Roots and Stinger are connected through PTR Epinal 81E and PTR Epinal 83E.
Yes, back to the Cette-La cow.

I thought Dr. Beever tested 81E and 83E, but they're not listed on the AMAA site of genetic abnormalities.
 

garybob

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 4, 2007
Messages
1,634
Location
NW Arkansas
Kevin Cullhane! He done us a good favor, didn't he? Dead, wrong-side-out calves. Makes you womder if he wasn't getting rid of all his carriers.
 

sjcattleco

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 4, 2007
Messages
496
Location
Southeast Ohio
garybob said:
Kevin Cullhane! He done us a good favor, didn't he? Dead, wrong-side-out calves. Makes you womder if he wasn't getting rid of all his carriers.

Hmm now there is a thought.. I bet Lee B. never looked at it from that angle.... I know I never thought about it.... I bet he figured out that freaky bone and double the amount of hair meant big trouble!!!!!


On this topic of all this stuff about the Maines and their genetic mess...Why are you guys worring about all this stuff... Now no one send me death threats or anything but you all are dealing with a breed of cattle that started out HUGE and red and no hair with tons of bone . to huge and black to smaller and black to even smaller and black with lots of hair and now its back to being cool if they are red again...and you are trying to track down the culprits of the problems considering all that not to mention some of the people that were filling out the papers...  You would have better luck picking knat sh!t out of pepper.  i bet your maine genetic defects could have come from Chi's or Galloways. who knows.... What about the rumor that TH is in the Angus breed.. Whos ranch  did Deerpark Improver live at  when he was alive?  whats the chance he left the shorthorn cows and went and bred some black ones? That would be a better thing to investigate... This Maine thing's scope is too big with too many unanswerable questions IMO.... i like stuff that I can actually figure out.
 

red

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 20, 2007
Messages
7,850
Location
LaRue, Ohio
I have to agree w/ Gypsy on Polleriod still. I would be shocked if he's a carrier. I'm still betting something not right in the pedigree of Roots.
Gypsy- aliens, voodoo curses or just flat out bad luck; you've had them all!

We might get a real good take on Polleriod, since I see the breeder has joined our group. I'm sure if there were ever any chance of defective calves, Jerry would know!
(welcome)  Jerry!

Red
 

DL

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 29, 2007
Messages
3,622
sjcattleco said:
garybob said:
Kevin Cullhane! He done us a good favor, didn't he? Dead, wrong-side-out calves. Makes you womder if he wasn't getting rid of all his carriers.

Hmm now there is a thought.. I bet Lee B. never looked at it from that angle.... I know I never thought about it.... I bet he figured out that freaky bone and double the amount of hair meant big trouble!!!!!


On this topic of all this stuff about the Maines and their genetic mess...Why are you guys worring about all this stuff... Now no one send me death threats or anything but you all are dealing with a breed of cattle that started out HUGE and red and no hair with tons of bone . to huge and black to smaller and black to even smaller and black with lots of hair and now its back to being cool if they are red again...and you are trying to track down the culprits of the problems considering all that not to mention some of the people that were filling out the papers...  You would have better luck picking knat sh!t out of pepper.  i bet your maine genetic defects could have come from Chi's or Galloways. who knows.... What about the rumor that TH is in the Angus breed.. Whos ranch  did Deerpark Improver live at  when he was alive?  whats the chance he left the shorthorn cows and went and bred some black ones? That would be a better thing to investigate... This Maine thing's scope is too big with too many unanswerable questions IMO.... i like stuff that I can actually figure out.


hey SJCC - we have had multiple reports of Angus calves born with either TH or PHA - all  AI bred and all calved to AI date - most from "important" Angus bulls - and ya know what, they were all sired by the herd bull and born early (reported by the producer as AI calves, NOT!). NONE of the ANGUS AI bulls have tested positive for either defect. The Angus will have enough to deal with once they face the FCS issue and realize that its origins in OZ are "important" AMERICAN Angus genetics.

Paramount is currently thought of as the dirty doer - he is a 1973 fullblood (yeah, red and white, lots of muscle, horned, no hair) and Draft Picks dam goes directly to him. All of the other fullblood candidates have tested negative to date and it has been difficult getting some of the really old semen. In addition Draft Picks sire (NorTex General) and maternal sire (AA Black Gold 500) have tested negative - so although the "breed" went to great lengths to get black the defect was red, and came out when there was so much in/line breeding primarily of DraftPick lines in the Maines and Stinger in the Shorthorns.

The Galloway defect (back then) is TH and they eliminated it by breeding trials (and abortion) to identify carriers and remove them fromthe gene pool (now there is a concept - that is really stepping up to the plate!! ;D and we can't get people to stop using carriers even though there is now a test, WOW!

Dexter's in Australia have now been identified with PHA, however although the affected gene is the same as in the Maine, the defect is different - in the Dexter's there is a deletion in the Maines a substitution.

We may never know who the original bad does is but we have had a heck of a ride, met some interesting people, learned a lot about fullblood genetics and old breeders, and developed some good friendships. The Chi's say they have no genetic defects (only certain lines) so unlikely to have come from them, but we have found unknown Santa Gertrudis, Holstein, Brown Swiss, and other interesting breeds of ancestors - so I still haven't ruled out the dairy bull!

It is an interesting exercise (and actually longer than a marathon since we have been at it for over a year! You can play if you want but you don't have too! Remember though there is an awful lot of Maine in some of you Shorthorn breed - some accurately on paper and some not! Also - this is a different planet from perhaps where you came - you are actually entitled to your own opinion, no one will yell at you, no one will utter death threats and no one will pull your post (unless you say meanthings about Our Red and then I personally will pull it!  (lol)

Have a great day - we finally have sun and NO SNOW! DL

PS I know where Improver was and to date he appeared to stay in his own pasture. 

PSS can garybob or someone explain this quote "Kevin Cullhane! He done us a good favor, didn't he? Dead, wrong-side-out calves. Makes you Wonder if he wasn't getting rid of all his carriers.

PSS Polleroid semen on its way - Hi Jerry!)"
 

sjcattleco

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 4, 2007
Messages
496
Location
Southeast Ohio
(lol)

I posted that tounge in cheek!!!! just so you know!!! anyone who really knows me knows that sometimes I do stuff like that to just stir the pot and see what floats! 


I really really like this website!!!! I think it is better than the others...... 
 

red

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 20, 2007
Messages
7,850
Location
LaRue, Ohio
sjcattleco said:
(lol)

I posted that tounge in cheek!!!! just so you know!!! anyone who really knows me knows that sometimes I do stuff like that to just stir the pot and see what floats! 


I really really like this website!!!! I think it is better than the others...... 

Oh you naughty, naughty boy! ;)
What someone trying to stir the pot?! Oh my!!!!
Glad you joined us, it's always great to hear from someone else opinions!

Red (welcome)
 

DL

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 29, 2007
Messages
3,622
sjcattleco said:
(lol)

I posted that tounge in cheek!!!! just so you know!!! anyone who really knows me knows that sometimes I do stuff like that to just stir the pot and see what floats! 


I really really like this website!!!! I think it is better than the others...... 

so you are the one who added eye of newt to the pot - you dirty devil you!! Don't know you but think i would like you and you fit right in!!
 

sjcattleco

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 4, 2007
Messages
496
Location
Southeast Ohio
Well thanks  I appreciate that very much... One thing I have learned in my few years on this rock is that 90% of the folks in ag are the salt of the earth.... the other 10% should be be hit by a Semi pot load of sheep!!!

 

Show Heifer

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 28, 2007
Messages
2,221
Hey now, back off the sheep!!! I raise them too!!!  ;D

But agree that tracking a genetic defect which relies on the honesty of breeders reporting bloodlines, then GOOD LUCK TO YA! Honesty doesn't seem to be real big in the clubbie or purebred worlds. Although I have met some wonderful folks along the way!! But unfortunately, I now realize they are the exception and not the rule.

SJC: I must admit I was a bit suspecious of Improvers home in the beginning....why would an angus breeder have a shortie bull???? But so far have found no reason to suspect any wrong doing.....the angus that were under question have been tested and were neg.
Welcome to our "little planet" where opinions run wild and we all still get along!! What a concept!! (clapping)
Your bull photo was most impressive!!!  Keep us posted on his availability and test results!!!
 

DL

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 29, 2007
Messages
3,622
sjcattleco said:
Well thanks  I appreciate that very much... One thing I have learned in my few years on this rock is that 90% of the folks in ag are the salt of the earth.... the other 10% should be be hit by a Semi pot load of sheep!!!

NOW THAT DESERVES AN AWARD - BUT FOR SH I MIGHT HAVE TO CHANGE THE SPECIES!  Just so you all know - be prepared - more awards coming in the next 24 hours - if you think you are up for one, please write your acceptance speech! (you will have 4.5 seconds!)  ;D
 

red

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 20, 2007
Messages
7,850
Location
LaRue, Ohio
No, I don't think the good guys are the exception in the cattle/clubbie business. It's like in life, the bad ones get the press or the attention! I think people in agriculture are by far a step & class above.
Honesty, ethics & morals are something that either you've got them or you don't.
As I was always taught " Walk the talk" (clapping)

I might be in the same mind set as SJC on the woolies though. As I told "justme" I remember showing Southdowns one year in 4-H, still have nightmares about those things. :p

(welcome)

Red
 
Top