What Red Angus bulls would be beneficial to starting a Durham Red program?

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ROAD WARRIOR

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Each bull that I listed has it's own reason for making the list. Whether it is structure, production traits or something else depends on the bull as an individual. This was a partial list of bulls I picked of the top of my head, I'm sure that I left some out.
 

Show Heifer

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I have seen quit a few mojito calves and I am not impressed. Seem very fine boned, heavy fronted, big shouldered, not much depth of rib or body, and lack  performance.  Plus his semen isn't released yet, and I bet it will be pricey when it does. I guess time will tell on the big picture. But he is a pretty shade of red....trying not to be to negative DL!!!

Whats up with Browns Vacation RW? Haven't seen many calves from him, but the ones I did seemed pretty good.
But for the most part, I agree with your list.
 

Show Dad

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RW -You did skewered a few sacred cows (oops, I mean bulls). ;)

I notice that Nbar uses Sequoia (amongst others). Also they had some very nice heifers out of a bull named Prairie Fire. You have any insights on their bulls?

SH - What I saw from him (Majito) had beautiful coloring too. (See DL it's catching ;))
 

ROAD WARRIOR

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Show Heifer said:
I have seen quit a few mojito calves and I am not impressed. Seem very fine boned, heavy fronted, big shouldered, not much depth of rib or body, and lack  performance.  Plus his semen isn't released yet, and I bet it will be pricey when it does. I guess time will tell on the big picture. But he is a pretty shade of red....trying not to be to negative DL!!!

Whats up with Browns Vacation RW? Haven't seen many calves from him, but the ones I did seemed pretty good.
But for the most part, I agree with your list.

Vacation is not very consistant. IMHO most are a little fine boned ( for me), or lack rib shape, or are lighter muscled, or just simply lack the power I like to see. I'm sure there are some good ones out there but I like the % of good to so so a little higher than what I have seen from him. He was used pretty heavily a few years ago but most breeders didn't stay with him very long.
 

ROAD WARRIOR

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SD said:
RW -You did skewered a few sacred cows (oops, I mean bulls). ;)

I notice that Nbar uses Sequoia (amongst others). Also they had some very nice heifers out of a bull named Prairie Fire. You have any insights on their bulls?

SH - What I saw from him (Majito) had beautiful coloring too. (See DL it's catching ;))

I have been impressed with the Sequoia's I have seen, he nicks pretty good with the NBAR cows - keeps them "pretty" and adds some dimension and a little power. Prairie Fire is a young bull Nolin raised that is out producing himself for sure ( isn't that the goal?). I don't know if he has ever had him collected though. He also uses a bull he raised he calls Sensation, kind of a calving ease bull that puts all of the pieces togather in the right spots. His Miles City bull is one to watch for in the future. Nolin doesn't try to sell semen on any of his bull which is too bad, he has probably raised some of the best female producing bulls in the breed.
 

aj

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Thanks jimmyski. I am planning to breed the best of my shorthorn cows to my lancer son this summer. I bought him from crousaints who were the red angus breeder of the year this year.My cows are pretty big boned and 90% have super udders. Is smaller bone bad? Doesn't that go with calving ease? Is smaller bone nessecarily frail? Smaller bone increases cutability. RW I would be interested in your opinion on Make mimi, mr. beef and especially the gravity bull. I think in general the red angus might increase marbling in the modern shorthorn cattle. They will for sure increase the current marbling dna markers available. I wonder what jakes proud jazz markers would show. I think he might increase marbling ability. I might ask what the birth wts of say the fully loaded bull are? Also...has there been any foreign blood problems in the red angus yet. I always wondered how long it would take for say cherry bomb or red headed stepchild blood to show up in a red angus. I might try supervision bull.  Isn't the robinhood line supposed to be real maternal. Thanks in advance.  ;D
 

feeder duck

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I've used the ABS bull Above and Beyond. Granted I'm not looking to set the world on fire here,what I am using him for is calving ease. I like what he has done for me and will continue to use him. I look forward to more input on this thread. I'm always willing to learn.

  JC
 

DL

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ROAD WARRIOR said:
OK - I'm going to stick my neck out on the chopping block - the following is strictly my oppinion which is worth exactly what it costs you here - NOTHING! So here we go a partial list of bulls I won't use. Each has their own reason, if you have questions about why on a particular bull -post it and we'll cover it.
Make Mimi,Ribeye, World Series, Catalist, Field Day, Doc Holliday, Lanser, Vacation, Mr Beef, Cherokee Canyon, Major Leage, Javelin, King Rob, Grand Canyon, Heavenly, Dr Phil, Cheyenne, Gravity, Romeo, Boone, Hi Ho, Pay Day. For those of you I have offended, I appologize - strictly bulls I won't use in my herd, you can make your own breeding decissions.

RW - that's what I always liked about you - wiling to stick your neck out, even if it isn't a popular notion  ;) (clapping) ;D Also kinda happy that I am not the only one with I won't use this bull "QUIRK" - I am gonna copy that list (in case it disappears - slander you know) so when I am looking to breed my double registered high percentage Maines for Durham Reds I know the score from a persons whose knowledge and insight in to the breed I greatly admire  (clapping) kudos, karma, and hats off (briefly - it is darn cold !) DL
 

garybob

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shortyjock89 said:
I couldn't find a pic of Fully Loaded, but I did see Mulberry. He's an awesome looking bull, but that $100/unit will getcha if you want to breed more than one cow. Has anyone tried Brylor Lead Pine? He looks pretty good to me. I like alot of the bulls they have in their index. Very masculine bulls.
Yes, and, I say the more masculine the bull, the more correctly-made and truly feminine the cow. The more sissified the bull, the more frail, hard-keeping and gutless the progeny will be.
 

sjcattleco

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shortyjock89 said:
With all this talk of Cherokee Canyon and his troubles, I was just wanting to ask all the great Red Angus breeders on here what RA bulls would work in a start-up Durham Red program? The cows would come from a variety of backgrounds: Trump influence, IWF Magic, Waukaru, and the TH free Double Stuff lines.  Any help? We would try to market the calves as show calves and replacement heifers.  I'm interested in the possibility of selling commercial-type bulls out of the Waukaru x RA cross, but we're aiming for functional show calves.  Thanks in advance for any responses.


PCC Colorado Hobo or just about any of Kit Pharos RA bulls....Judging from your maternal lines you need extreme masculine bulls that will take at least one frame score off the cows.    Durham Red buyers will not be too impressed with show cattle lines....
 

xxcc

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what about King Rob?  or does he have better decendants?  i know he's dated, but it seems like about ten years ago he was a pretty dang good bull.
 

itk

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I can't believe that I'm going to say this but aren't we all getting ahead of ourselves with all this DR talk. For the most part a large majority of us can't even put together a uniform set of commercial oriented females if someone called looking for one. I don't think that there are enough "commercial" females in the breed right now to have the DR program as Mr. Bolze envisioned it come to life. The better question would be what shorthorn lines should we be using to get foundation shorthorn cows in place to someday have a successful DR program. Right now ,for the most part, the DR program reflects the breed as a whole, with little real world use. I have many issues with the program to numerous to list on one post but as a breed we need to take a step back and take a serious look at where we fit in the cattle industry. Can I get a AMEN garybob.
 

TPX

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I dont think that Brylor will be selling fully loaded semen but it will probably be sold privately.
 

Show Dad

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xxcc said:
what about King Rob?  or does he have better decendants?  i know he's dated, but it seems like about ten years ago he was a pretty dang good bull.

XXCC - Here is a quote from an RW post in another topic:

Was King rob a good bull? I know I went to a mushrush sale onetime and people were talking about him. Wasn't he hot at one time?

Nick named "King Slob" for a reason - quite a bit of performance but really sloppy and 3 piecey. His daughters also had some issues in the fact that if you used him on a cow that already milked enough and retained a daughter from that mating the daughter would most likely milk herself to death and eventually starve the calf down because she couldn't maintain herself and milk that heavily. Many didn't breed back for a second calf and if they did the udder quality left alot to be desired by the time they were 6 years old - blown udders and goat teets were quite common.
 

aj

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itk....you make a good point. I have raised shorthorns since 1977. They are an amazing breed of cattle. I think we have less feet and udder problems than anyone. We in general have big cows that can lay down and have a 105# calf without any problem because of massive pelvic area. I think this comes from the infusion of the milking shorthorn lines.The disposition of our cattle are second to none. They have decent grading ability while still hitting the 2's and 3's on yeild grade. The black hided deal killed us. This may change once all the cattle are black and are still only grading 50% in feedlots and people realize well black hides really didn't do anything for us. 90% of registered shorthorn cattle have chased the show ring deal and they are super show ring cattle. However, if we want to gain more than 2% of the commercial industry we need to do several things.We need to be polled and we need to be solid colored and we need to get our bwt's down to 80#s on average.Durham reds: I am 47 years old. If I have 15 years of cattle breeding left I think I can incorporate the red angus breed to produce the Durham reds. THEY ARE THE ONLY RECOGNIZED ALL BRITISH BREED COMPOSITE in the world. If I linebreed durham reds for several generations and select wisely they will be super cattle. I realize the first f-1 cross will be a durham red that is a fancy name for a crossbred. I think that the durham reds could almost be developed into a new breed similar to what the santi gertrudis became by incorporating the brahmans an the shorthorns. I just think that there is super potential to develop cattle with good dispositions with grading ability,solid colored, polled and pretty darn maternal. The current showring cattle in the shorthorn breed will not work in my enviroment. Corn is now 4 bucks a bushel in colby kansas. If you do not think that is going to dramatically change the cattle in the feedlot you are mistaken. Big cows are not good. I think kit pharo may be right when he says there is a train wreck coming to cattle industry. My wife won't let me get out of a few purebred shorthorns so I will always have a few. I am intrigued with dr potential.I think fast maturing cattle that grade fast may become beneficial. That is all I have to say about that.
 

ROAD WARRIOR

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I will agree that many of our cows are too big. However I think you have to fit your cattle to your enviroment and to what you can merchandize to your customers. In my world my customers like bulls that are 6 to 7 frame, 5 frames are the last bulls standing in the pen at the end of the season. A 3 to 4 frame score bull would end up at the sale barn because no one would even look at the "Mini Me". Your customers will tell you what you need to be raising just the same as their customers tell them. At the end of the day it is still all about dollars and cents in your pocket.
 

itk

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Here we go with my Durham Red venting session I just can't hold it in any longer.

My first issue is with the lost heterosis we are selling our customers. Commercial ranchers want to sell not buy heterosis. When then they buy a Durham Red bull to put on their angus x simmy x hereford x charolais cows we are adding two more breeds and further mongrelizing the beef population. Heterosis is maximized at three breeds so I feel I would be stealing from my customer by selling them a Durham Red bull. Sure the DR bulls can push down the scales but that is heterosis that we are selling the commercial man and like I said commercial breeders want to sell and not buy heterosis.

As far as DR females go I do feel there would be a place for them in the cattle industry right now, however the shorthorn breed dose not have enough cows to meet any kind of real commercial demand that might come along. The last I heard the average shorthorn breeder has 8 cows. By the time you account for bull calves and cull heifers think of how many breeders it would take to fill a pot load order of DR females. We have all seen the beautiful DR heifer that Razor had in his sale last spring, and I admit that she is a outstanding female. Jack and Bill are good friends of mine, however I doubt that when the DR program was started I don't think flushing a National Champion RA female to Sonny was what Ron was thinking. Still this is the mentality of the breed right now.

Being a seedstock producer comes with great responsibility. It is our job to educate our buyers. I have had customers that have given me blank stares when I bring up hybrid vigor. We must provide accurate and honest information about what our genetics can offer to a potential buyers operation even if it means not selling them an animal, our future food supply depends on it.
 

cowz

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I tend to over simplify things but here goes.....My interest in having a group of DR females would be to maximize the maternal heterosis.  For example, my goal would be to have a group of DR females bred to an angus bull that could calve in a creek bottom with little intervention and then wean a respectable weight calf in the fall.  I would be banking on maximizing my natural resources...water and grass...through a cow that can milk and stay sound enough to travel and protect her calf from predators in the summer.  I don't want much do I?
 

knabe

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itk said:
Here we go with my Durham Red venting session I just can't hold it in any longer.
My first issue is with the lost heterosis we are selling our customers. Commercial ranchers want to sell not buy heterosis. When then they buy a Durham Red bull to put on their angus x simmy x hereford x charolais cows we are adding two more breeds and further mongrelizing the beef population. Heterosis is maximized at three breeds so I feel I would be stealing from my customer by selling them a Durham Red bull. Sure the DR bulls can push down the scales but that is heterosis that we are selling the commercial man and like I said commercial breeders want to sell and not buy heterosis.

this ranks up there with the 10 best quotes on this site.  people are not used to looking at an animal that has money in the back pocket of the buyer, i know i don't.  purebred producers have educated buyers to desire a terminal cross with no money in their back pocket.  think corn to some extent.  the terminal product exceeds the additive effect of both parents.  it's pretty hard to visualize what these animals should look like.  there is a certain breeder in kansas that is doing this, ie making a cross from inbred lines across breeds and measuring it in a low input environment.  amazing that if you want to lead you can't follow.  we need to relook at what happens when you take out the hybrid vigor from purebreds, fullbloods, and give it back to the buyers.  we seem to be perpetually finding the nick that will maximize the hybrid vigor in the purebreds, and then wonder why they don't breed true.  predictability is so boring.

like the analogy cowz
 
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