What do you mean no commercial shorthorns?

J2F · Jun 9, 2012

Why do commercial shorthorn outfits around the country always get glossed over to bash the big time shorthorn show outfits?

kfacres · Jun 9, 2012

J2F said:
Why do commercial shorthorn outfits around the country always get glossed over to bash the big time shorthorn show outfits?

it's the law...

why is grass green?

why does the sun shine?

why were cattle put to this earth to convert poor quality roughage that humans can't convert (grass)- into a product that humans can consume (meat)?

jaimiediamond · Jun 9, 2012

I am not sure why Shorthorn breeders bash each other as much as they do. Attached is a picture of a bull sired by Salute, this bull is working commercially and has not had any calves assisted. The owner of this bull has other Shorthorns, Simmentals,Angus (red and black) and honestly he is pleased with the Salute son.

coyote · Jun 9, 2012

I think it maybe has something to do with the perception that some of the show cattle are the wrong type and if they were used in the commercial industry they would give Shorthorns a bad name and turn commercial cattleman off of Shorthorns, which in turn would hurt the commercial shorthorn outfits. ie: TH, PHA defects, hard calving , hard doing.
I guess the Shorthorn breed has been down that road before when the show industry was striving for short cattle during the 50s and 60s. A lot of Shorthorns turned that way to try and win a ribbon and a lot of commercial acceptance was lost.

It is not just a Shorthorn issue it is in every breed and even in the horse industry. I would say it is more than likely human nature more than anything.

jaimiediamond · Jun 10, 2012

coyote said:
I think it maybe has something to do with the perception that some of the show cattle are the wrong type and if they were used in the commercial industry they would give Shorthorns a bad name and turn commercial cattleman off of Shorthorns, which in turn would hurt the commercial shorthorn outfits. ie: TH, PHA defects, hard calving , hard doing.
I guess the Shorthorn breed has been down that road before when the show industry was striving for short cattle during the 50s and 60s. A lot of Shorthorns turned that way to try and win a ribbon and a lot of commercial acceptance was lost.

I definitely don't disagree but a lot of the commercial orientated breeders miss the big picture, I might choose to breed a certain type of cattle that is not acceptable to Bob the showman but I don't expect him to bash me or my program or vice versa. I honestly think that calving ease, docility, structural soundness, fleshing ability, carcass and milk are our breeds assets. Have these traits been lost when adding Maine to get the super fancy show ring cattle? The bull I mentioned above is working with Shorthorns from Muridale, Diamond, Alta Cedar, Horseshoe Creek, Uluru, Saskvalley. This bull is maintaining flesh and has not compromised calving ease but perhaps he is an exception to the rule ???

RyanChandler · Jun 10, 2012

That's because Bobs not real world and he knows it. Bobs business is creating an illusion for fun. Coyotes business is bringing a legitimate product to the table based on facts, not fun. That bull above is terribly shallow chested and his daughters will not have the heart girth necessary to consume enough low quality forage to thrive in a production scenario. Now, if you bring food to them, I'm sure they'd do fine.

I agree 100% w/ coyotes first three sentences, his last two - not so much.

obie105 · Jun 10, 2012

We have one commercial shorthorn cow and she can be bred to the same bull as everyone else and her calf is 10lbs heavier everytime. She is harder calving. To sit back and look shorthorns are hard calving. They seem to be harder doing. You don't see them bringing a premium at the sale barn more than likely roans will be docked. You don't see ads out there by the shorthorn association saying hey use these bulls they will do whatever for you like many of the other associations. Every breed has there genetic defects but when I think of shorthorns I think of the big two defects and that is something the commercial guy doesn't want to deal with. I am sure there are very good shorthorns out there that can do well for the commercial guy but I have never heard about any. I have friends that raise them and all they talk about is having to feed the cows year round and all of the c sections. Not good advertisement for the breed.

aj · Jun 10, 2012

When I first looked at the photo(without reading the speech....I thought the pictured animal was a female. Long nosed and feminine. Not sure that is bad.

trevorgreycattleco · Jun 10, 2012

I agree aj. Lacks some serious masculinity. There are a few operations out there that do just fine in the commercial world. They just don't spend thousands upon thousands of dollars advertising it. Each year seems to bring more and more people around shorthorns. If we are using bulls that look like heifers I don't think many folks will be interested for to long.

trevorgreycattleco · Jun 10, 2012

And I will say for the record there are several reasons to bash a bull with a +9 bw epd that is a known cow killer. Nothing personal at all. Lots of stories of c sections and death. He sure wins a lot and I find it fascinating he works so well in Canada. Seriously.

wiseguy · Jun 10, 2012

coyote said:
I think it maybe has something to do with the perception that some of the show cattle are the wrong type and if they were used in the commercial industry they would give Shorthorns a bad name and turn commercial cattleman off of Shorthorns, which in turn would hurt the commercial shorthorn outfits. ie: TH, PHA defects, hard calving , hard doing.
I guess the Shorthorn breed has been down that road before when the show industry was striving for short cattle during the 50s and 60s. A lot of Shorthorns turned that way to try and win a ribbon and a lot of commercial acceptance was lost.

It is not just a Shorthorn issue it is in every breed and even in the horse industry. I would say it is more than likely human nature more than anything.

[/quote
Coyote is exactly correct with the last two sentences! It is in every breed. Champion Hill gets called out all the time in theAngus breed for being only Show Cattle, then people go up to Schaff's and buy their bulls with an SAV prefix for big money because they think they are Commercial oriented. It is all about perception. I don't know why the "commercial" shorthorn people dislike the show industry people so much? We are all just trying to sell a product to make money. I don't dislike Holstein guys because they feed hard year around to make money milking cows. I understand that is fine as long as it is profitable.

As far as all the "C sections" come on!!!! We have been raising shorthorns almost 70 years and maybe given 3 c-sections . Your friend is doing someting drastically wrong in selecting matings!!!!! I could bash any breed on here, but I don't because who does it benefit?

aj · Jun 10, 2012

Is this a "propaganda" board or a discussion board. Jamie always used to have her sister and friend and dad hold contrived discussions on here that were thinly disguised info mercials.........and there relationship was a big secret till it was found out.

wiseguy · Jun 10, 2012

Discussion is fine! I am just so tired of hearing about a guys who knows a guy, who knows a guy, who's neighbor knows a guy with shorthorn cattle that has C sections all the time.

wiseguy · Jun 10, 2012

I also agree that Salute has serious problems. I would not use him.

kfacres · Jun 10, 2012

jaimiediamond said:
I am not sure why Shorthorn breeders bash each other as much as they do. Attached is a picture of a bull sired by Salute, this bull is working commercially and has not had any calves assisted. The owner of this bull has other Shorthorns, Simmentals,Angus (red and black) and honestly he is pleased with the Salute son.

that's a bull? Ha, I'll have to put my glasses on to even see his pecker... Are you sure you posted the right picture?

aj · Jun 10, 2012

I think there is a divide of sorts in the breed. There was kind of a movement by some Shorthorn people a few years back to try and gain back some market share in the beef industry. The black hided deal was a major factor. There were people discussing ideas on how to do this. People looked at the Angus and Red Angus breeds who had all kinds of data......all kinds of commercial domination. They were selecting for smaller bwt's and stayability and carcass traits. These breeders hammered and hammered and stacked pedigrees to try and please the industry. Angus was big....Red Angus acceptence had explosive growth. These breeders had 20 years of selection of multiple traits. It seemed like to me that when some Shorthorn breeders got to talking about how to gain market share in the industry......half or better of the Shorthorn breed stood up and spoke. They said hey....why can't our shorthorn show ring stuff work in the the beef industry? We have WDA of age of 5 pounds aday and 2,000 # cows and the prettiest cattle in the WORLD! Sure they are hard keeping cattle that can't survive without show feed but dang......have you ever been to Louisville and seen the show cattle. I think there that there is a tremendous amount of showring people that are pissed that their cattle are almost worthless out in the country. And they don't understand why their show ring cattle can't compete with a breed that has been selecting for economically traits besides pretty hair for 20 years. jmo

J2F · Jun 10, 2012

obie105 said:
We have one commercial shorthorn cow and she can be bred to the same bull as everyone else and her calf is 10lbs heavier everytime. She is harder calving. To sit back and look shorthorns are hard calving. They seem to be harder doing. You don't see them bringing a premium at the sale barn more than likely roans will be docked. You don't see ads out there by the shorthorn association saying hey use these bulls they will do whatever for you like many of the other associations. Every breed has there genetic defects but when I think of shorthorns I think of the big two defects and that is something the commercial guy doesn't want to deal with. I am sure there are very good shorthorns out there that can do well for the commercial guy but I have never heard about any. I have friends that raise them and all they talk about is having to feed the cows year round and all of the c sections. Not good advertisement for the breed.

I must ask what is the breeding behind the shorthorn cow. If a feed yard goes out to club calf sales and buys up $1500 club calves, feeds them out he can't be suprised when he dosen't make any money and blame the breeders. I must assume in all the other breeds you must buy from the breeder who breeds the type of cattle you are looking for.

kfacres · Jun 10, 2012

coyote said:
I think it maybe has something to do with the perception that some of the show cattle are the wrong type and if they were used in the commercial industry they would give Shorthorns a bad name and turn commercial cattleman off of Shorthorns, which in turn would hurt the commercial shorthorn outfits. ie: TH, PHA defects, hard calving , hard doing.

We have one commercial shorthorn cow and she can be bred to the same bull as everyone else and her calf is 10lbs heavier everytime. She is harder calving. To sit back and look shorthorns are hard calving. They seem to be harder doing.

You don't see them bringing a premium at the sale barn more than likely roans will be docked. You don't see ads out there by the shorthorn association saying hey use these bulls they will do whatever for you like many of the other associations. Every breed has there genetic defects but when I think of shorthorns I think of the big two defects and that is something the commercial guy doesn't want to deal with.

I have show type friends that raise them and all they talk about is having to feed the cows year round and all of the c sections. Not good advertisement for the breed.

I think there is a divide of sorts in the breed. There was kind of a movement by some Shorthorn people a few years back to try and gain back some market share in the beef industry. The black hided deal was a major factor. There were people discussing ideas on how to do this. People looked at the Angus and Red Angus breeds who had all kinds of data......all kinds of commercial domination. They were selecting for smaller bwt's and stayability and carcass traits. These breeders hammered and hammered and stacked pedigrees to try and please the industry. Angus was big....Red Angus acceptence had explosive growth. These breeders had 20 years of selection of multiple traits.

It is not just a Shorthorn issue it is in every breed and even in the horse industry. I would say it is more than likely human nature more than anything.

Took some quotes from above- added a word here and there-- and I think this will be the best, most logical, informative speech yet on here...

Now, if I can only get my dad, his best friend, my sister, and my best friend to come on here to back me up-- then I'll be really something. Wait, I forgot, I need to attach a picture, tell a long drawn out story, and then I'll inform you that I've been making the world's best cattle-- since I was 3. <rock>

;D

obie105 · Jun 10, 2012

She is a granddaughter of double vision. I like the cow don't get me wrong. She is carrying an embryo because she can have a bigger calf and she milks well. The big picture is go to a sale barn look at what is bringing the money. We raise herefords so there are places that we get docked for being red but the association has helped out to by having hereford influenced feeder calf sales and certified hereford beef. Correct me if I'm wrong but I haven't seen anything out there trying to promote shorthorns to the commercial guy.

kfacres · Jun 10, 2012

obie105 said:
She is a granddaughter of double vision. I like the cow don't get me wrong. She is carrying an embryo because she can have a bigger calf and she milks well. The big picture is go to a sale barn look at what is bringing the money. We raise herefords so there are places that we get docked for being red but the association has helped out to by having hereford influenced feeder calf sales and certified hereford beef. Correct me if I'm wrong but I haven't seen anything out there trying to promote shorthorns to the commercial guy.

That's b/c our association doesn't care- nor does it get funded by the non- showring side of the breeders.

I'm guessing someone will post about 10 flyers made up by the Canadian Shorthorn Ass'n- promoting shorthorns as a commercial aspect-- but that won't do the American's any more good than flying monkeys.

ps. there is some added bw with the DV cattle- however, his influence is so strong- and it's pretty hard to find a thick shorthorn that doesn't go back to him-... the circle continues....

What do you mean no commercial shorthorns?

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