What do you mean no commercial shorthorns?

[aj]

I don't think its because the association doesn't care. I don't think that its anybodies fault. The showring direction of the breed really just made sense. The black hided deal was such a powerfull factor and the Shorthorns didn't want black Shorthorns. There was a niche to be filled in the showrings with the Shorthorns. Th occured in the Shorthorn breed and this historically was a BIG factor in the breed. Follow the money. It is interesting that now most breeds looks like Angus though. Seems like alot of breeds are doing the composite deal so breeds like the Simmental have cattle hanging around the 50% Angus level. I remember some of the first Black Simmental cattle.....in my opinion.....they were god awful,hard keeping, rat tail deals.

 

[aj]

In my opinion the black hided deal killed the Shorthorn breeds acceptance of alot of the industry, in the last 20 years.......period and end of story. I think people who love the Shorthorns are chippy with one another because in a sense they are on a losing team with the sale barn docks and other factors of color discrimination. I remember back in the 1970's.......during the exotic cattle envasion........Angus cattle were almost a joke in some peoples eyes. Alot of breeders stuck with the breed and weathered the storm. I think its all about cycles.

 

[RyanChandler]

I think it maybe has something to do with the perception that some of the show cattle are the wrong type and if they were used in the commercial industry they would give Shorthorns a bad name and turn commercial cattleman off of Shorthorns, which in turn would hurt the commercial shorthorn outfits. ie: TH, PHA defects, hard calving , hard doing.
I guess the Shorthorn breed has been down that road before when the show industry was striving for short cattle during the 50s and 60s. A lot of Shorthorns turned that way to try and win a ribbon and a lot of commercial acceptance was lost.

It is not just a Shorthorn issue it is in every breed and even in the horse industry. I would say it is more than likely human nature more than anything.

[/quote
Coyote is exactly correct with the last two sentences! It is in every breed. Champion Hill gets called out all the time in theAngus breed for being only Show Cattle, then people go up to Schaff's and buy their bulls with an SAV prefix for big money because they think they are Commercial oriented. It is all about perception. I don't know why the "commercial" shorthorn people dislike the show industry people so much? We are all just trying to sell a product to make money. I don't dislike Holstein guys because they feed hard year around to make money milking cows. I understand that is fine as long as it is profitable.

As far as all the "C sections" come on!!!! We have been raising shorthorns almost 70 years and maybe given 3 c-sections . Your friend is doing someting drastically wrong in selecting matings!!!!! I could bash any breed on here, but I don't because who does it benefit?

Who's the EXPRESS Ranch of the Shorthorns?  Angus around here are dominated by Express and SAV genetics.  I like the SAV cattle. When raised here, they are not big hard doing cattle that some associate them with.  The holstein analogy makes no sense.  Production is the goal. You can feed that bull above all you want and he'll never have performance.

 

[jaimiediamond]

Not that it really matters but the bull I posted earlier was a 8 month old bull calf.  I could take pictures of the 2 year old bull who is working hard right now but what would be the point it is not like I use the bull or that he affects my program.  I find it interesting that some of the breeders who attack the breed actually breed what I would consider commercial cattle yet claim to be Shorthorn breeders.  Aj not that I don't enjoy your personal attacks towards me or anything but I can't take your account of Shorthorns being commercially unacceptable seriously when your purebred sire is less than 3/4 Shorthorn (I didn't upgrade the Maine as I feel that might be the seed of your problems), and your calving ease solution is a lot less than half.  Which brings me back to is your problem with Shorthorns connected to your high Maine influence? I only ask this as we don't have the problems you claim but we also don't use Appendix sires.

 

[aj]

My bad. I'm not going to win an arguement with a 23 year girl from Canada. It can't be done

 

[jaimiediamond]

My bad. I'm not going to win an arguement with a 23 year girl from Canada. It can't be done

Your right, because you are not arguing with a 23 year old girl.

 

[aj]

I forgot how old you are. Or are you a man this thread?

 

[wiseguy]

Aj you are dead on with the black  hidded deal. As long as we aren't black we will continue to have these issues.

x-bar my point with the Holsteins is that we shouldn't care what others do to make a buck. If someone wants to use a bull then let them. It. Doesn't affect you any.

I get very heated on this topic. I love shorthorns and see the value in them everyday. I just wish I had the answer.

 

[jaimiediamond]

I forgot how old you are. Or are you a man this thread?

Still Jaimie from Diamond that has never changed.  Attached is my feelings of your personal attacks again

I am curious though is it the high Maine influence that gave your Shorthorn herd so many problems?  I was reading all your previous posts and I think that Sodhouse Little Man is a pretty good example.

Aj not that I don't enjoy your personal attacks towards me or anything but I can't take your account of Shorthorns being commercially unacceptable seriously when your purebred sire is less than 3/4 Shorthorn (I didn't upgrade the Maine as I feel that might be the seed of your problems), and your calving ease solution is a lot less than half.  Which brings me back to is your problem with Shorthorns connected to your high Maine influence? I only ask this as we don't have the problems you claim but we also don't use Appendix sires.

 

[kfacres]

I forgot how old you are. Or are you a man this thread?

Still Jaimie from Diamond that has never changed.  Attached is my feelings of your personal attacks again

I am curious though is it the high Maine influence that gave your Shorthorn herd so many problems?  I was reading all your previous posts and I think that Sodhouse Little Man is a pretty good example.

Aj not that I don't enjoy your personal attacks towards me or anything but I can't take your account of Shorthorns being commercially unacceptable seriously when your purebred sire is less than 3/4 Shorthorn (I didn't upgrade the Maine as I feel that might be the seed of your problems), and your calving ease solution is a lot less than half.  Which brings me back to is your problem with Shorthorns connected to your high Maine influence? I only ask this as we don't have the problems you claim but we also don't use Appendix sires.

now Jamie- be truthful-- you're program has used plenty of 'appendix' sires over the years-- it's just they didn't carry the astrick in their registration numbers.  Me personally, I'd rather use those sires of known pedigree-- even if from another breed-- before I would those intentionally misrepresented, or lied about on paper. 

The Irish bulls for example?

 

[jaimiediamond]

I forgot how old you are. Or are you a man this thread?

Still Jaimie from Diamond that has never changed.  Attached is my feelings of your personal attacks again

I am curious though is it the high Maine influence that gave your Shorthorn herd so many problems?  I was reading all your previous posts and I think that Sodhouse Little Man is a pretty good example.

Aj not that I don't enjoy your personal attacks towards me or anything but I can't take your account of Shorthorns being commercially unacceptable seriously when your purebred sire is less than 3/4 Shorthorn (I didn't upgrade the Maine as I feel that might be the seed of your problems), and your calving ease solution is a lot less than half.  Which brings me back to is your problem with Shorthorns connected to your high Maine influence? I only ask this as we don't have the problems you claim but we also don't use Appendix sires.

now Jamie- be truthful-- you're program has used plenty of 'appendix' sires over the years-- it's just they didn't carry the astrick in their registration numbers.  Me personally, I'd rather use those sires of known pedigree-- even if from another breed-- before I would those intentionally misrepresented, or lied about on paper. 

The Irish bulls for example?

Your not wrong there are some shady things back in the past not only from Irish but if we call Clare Man Breed X our cattle still come back at over 99% which is as good as it is going to get for anyone who isn't breeding Native cattle.  I find it interesting that aj isn't coming back with why it is purely a Shorthorn problem his herd was having with all the Maine influence...

 

[aj]

I think it is a fascinating subject. What is pure? A purebred x a purebred of another breed is said to maximize heterosis. But then you have a guy like Pelton here in Kansas. They started out with Simmental and then added Red Angus. They have both breeds and sell the hell out of composite bulls of all kinds of %'s inbetween. He has won all kinds of breeder of the year awards and performance awards from the Beef Improvement federations etc. I think that his cattle are predictable....even if the composites are not purebred. The cattle are under strict enviromental pressure and they don't try the bull of the month club deal. I don't think that being pure for the sake of being pure is nessecarily important. The Herfords and the Polled Herfords were once two organizations. Now they are combined. So are resulting calves unpure. The Maine Anjou was developed from the Durhams and the Mancelle cattle in France so the maines are related to the Shorthorns. I have been told that there is so much foreign blood floating around the Angus they are afraid to delve into the matterGood points Jamie though. I think composites can be more predictible on economically important traits then some purebreds. However they will prduce less or at least harder to manage heterosis factor.

 

[aj]

And please cut the victim crap. No one is bashing shorthorns they are discussing Shorthorns. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't make them wrong. It doesn't mean they are bashing a breed. Even if your daddy is jit or okie dokie or whatever.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

So what's a guy to do next? If you were starting a new herd of shorthorns from scratch where do you go? Purebred or composite shorthorn? Big time breeder or small mom and pop ? Is it possible to break down the angus great wall of dominance? I think so but I'm in the minority. You ever see a solution to a big problem and try telling folks and they don't listen or care? That's what shorthorns face. I think politics and personal beefs within the breed are what's holding it back the most. So and so won't use a bull because so and so owns him. I'm sure that happens in all breeds to a point.

 

[happyrock]

So what's a guy to do next? If you were starting a new herd of shorthorns from scratch where do you go? Purebred or composite shorthorn? Big time breeder or small mom and pop ? Is it possible to break down the angus great wall of dominance? I think so but I'm in the minority. You ever see a solution to a big problem and try telling folks and they don't listen or care? That's what shorthorns face. I think politics and personal beefs within the breed are what's holding it back the most. So and so won't use a bull because so and so owns him. I'm sure that happens in all breeds to a point.

no big mystery here folks, buy cattle from people who raise them the way you want to. If the working corrals are 6 feet high and made of drill stem don't expect to get away with anything less.
If your foundation or replacement stock comes from someone who feeds less than you would, who messes with their cattle less than you would and the cattle still work you will probably be happy
buying there.
However if you are buying something to win the Derby don't expect it to work on the hills, valleys and rocks.
    There are a lot of good places to shop and buy exactly what you are looking for if you know what you are looking for .
Most of the people with good cattle that work, don't spend a lot of time bashing other peoples cattle or programs and
would be more than happy to assist you in reaching your goals as a cattle producer.  hr

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Great answer. Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[kfacres]

Here's what I don't get about the Candians-- they try to think everything through- but they don't actually use their heads...

here we are bashing away on a bull of AJ's- who's basically has a Maine Grandparent-- and bashing away at his problems towards the commerical industry-- b/c he's got maine in him-- even though he is a commerical bull.

On the other hand, we are promoting a bull (Salute) that's apparently only working north of the border- for either commercial, or purebred-- as being great-- when is 25% Maine as well. 

I don't get it, I always thought that 25% was 1/4?

 

[J2F]

With all of the other breeds going "Black" do you think in the long run it will hurt Angus eventually. I mean black was suppose to mean calving ease, carcass merit, early maturity and easy feeding (I think all the same traits for Shorthorns) but I don't think Maine or Limo's will give you those even know their black now. When all this catches up to the market will red, roan and white face cattle rule the feed yards as it appears is starting to happen in parts of the rest of the world.

 

[garybob]

We have one commercial shorthorn cow and she can be bred to the same bull as everyone else and her calf is 10lbs heavier everytime. She is harder calving. To sit back and look shorthorns are hard calving. They seem to be harder doing. You don't see them bringing a premium at the sale barn more than likely roans will be docked. You don't see ads out there by the shorthorn association saying hey use these bulls they will do whatever for you like many of the other associations. Every breed has there genetic defects but when I think of shorthorns I think of the big two defects and that is something the commercial guy doesn't want to deal with. I am sure there are very good shorthorns out there that can do well for the commercial guy but I have never heard about any. I have friends that raise them and all they talk about is having to feed the cows year round and all of the c sections. Not good advertisement for the breed.

If she goes back to Double Vision......then, she is NOT of commercially acceptable lineage. Period.

GB

 

[aj]

The Shorthorns got hit by a perfect storm. The black hided deal knocked the hell out them. I do think there were some awful good red Limis and Simmis and gelbviehs that got kicked to the curb for poorer quality blacks. I really don't know how things will shake out. The bull market is one tough shrinking target. Land prices and whatnot.