What do you mean no commercial shorthorns?

[thunderdownunder]

She is a granddaughter of double vision. I like the cow don't get me wrong. She is carrying an embryo because she can have a bigger calf and she milks well. The big picture is go to a sale barn look at what is bringing the money. We raise herefords so there are places that we get docked for being red but the association has helped out to by having hereford influenced feeder calf sales and certified hereford beef. Correct me if I'm wrong but I haven't seen anything out there trying to promote shorthorns to the commercial guy.

I am guessing that our Canadian members aren't game to highlight some of the great print advertisements (MY opinion) that have been used by the association over the past few years, so I will. Here's a link to some eye catching, informative ads... Anyone else know of any others?
http://issuu.com/canadian_shorthorn_association/docs/print_ads

 

[kfacres]

She is a granddaughter of double vision. I like the cow don't get me wrong. She is carrying an embryo because she can have a bigger calf and she milks well. The big picture is go to a sale barn look at what is bringing the money. We raise herefords so there are places that we get docked for being red but the association has helped out to by having hereford influenced feeder calf sales and certified hereford beef. Correct me if I'm wrong but I haven't seen anything out there trying to promote shorthorns to the commercial guy.

I am guessing that our Canadian members aren't game to highlight some of the great print advertisements (MY opinion) that have been used by the association over the past few years, so I will. Here's a link to some eye catching, informative ads... Anyone else know of any others?
http://issuu.com/canadian_shorthorn_association/docs/print_ads

prediction come true...

Again, I ask-- what's that going to do for the majority of the people who visit this board?  we are not Candians-- and we operate under a completely different minded association. 

 

[J2F]

I think there is a divide of sorts in the breed. There was kind of a movement by some Shorthorn people a few years back to try and gain back some market share in the beef industry. The black hided deal was a major factor. There were people discussing ideas on how to do this. People looked at the Angus and Red Angus breeds who had all kinds of data......all kinds of commercial domination. They were selecting for smaller bwt's and stayability and carcass traits. These breeders hammered and hammered and stacked pedigrees to try and please the industry. Angus was big....Red Angus acceptance had explosive growth. These breeders had 20 years of selection of multiple traits. It seemed like to me that when some Shorthorn breeders got to talking about how to gain market share in the industry......half or better of the Shorthorn breed stood up and spoke. They said hey....why can't our shorthorn show ring stuff work in the the beef industry? We have WDA of age of 5 pounds aday and 2,000 # cows and the prettiest cattle in the WORLD! Sure they are hard keeping cattle that can't survive without show feed but dang......have you ever been to Louisville and seen the show cattle. I think there that there is a tremendous amount of showring people that are pissed that their cattle are almost worthless out in the country. And they don't understand why their show ring cattle can't compete with a breed that has been selecting for economically traits besides pretty hair for 20 years. jmo

I see the same cattle up and down every row at the shows. Shorthorn does not have the market cornered on that. I also see cattle that is more commercial oriented that comes in in the middle of the class at the show but if that is the type you are looking for and fits your program then why would it matter what one persons opinion is on that one day. To me that is what the show is all about. Showing off your cattle and your breeding program to the public. When I was a kid going to the shows It was herds on display. 2 bulls 2 cows and 2 calves , I miss those days. Now its a heifer hear, a bull there and tons of JR.s showing someones cattle just there for the purple.

 

[vanridge]

shorthorns were smart not to let black in. It's easy enough to get black hided shorthorn cross calves. 

if your association isn't doing what you want/need it to, than you need to get involved and work at it. But you're gonna have to be polite about it, or nobody will listen.

No offense AJ and Outspoken, but if I felt the same way about shorthorns that you do, I would not be using a shorthorn bull or working with shorthorn cows.
Read what Happy Rock wrote again. It makes sense.

no big mystery here folks, buy cattle from people who raise them the way you want to. If the working corrals are 6 feet high and made of drill stem don't expect to get away with anything less.
If your foundation or replacement stock comes from someone who feeds less than you would, who messes with their cattle less than you would and the cattle still work you will probably be happy
buying there.
However if you are buying something to win the Derby don't expect it to work on the hills, valleys and rocks.
    There are a lot of good places to shop and buy exactly what you are looking for if you know what you are looking for .
Most of the people with good cattle that work, don't spend a lot of time bashing other peoples cattle or programs and
would be more than happy to assist you in reaching your goals as a cattle producer.  hr

 

[obie105]

[/quote]If she goes back to Double Vision......then, she is NOT of commercially acceptable lineage. Period.

GB
[/quote]

There shouldn't be commercial and show cattle within a breed the cattle should do both look at the breeds that are really excelling at this time. The top show bulls are still producing cattle that can be used as feeders and in the feedlot. Like I said I love this cow she just has heavier birth weight calves bottom line.

 

[kfacres]

shorthorns were smart not to let black in. It's easy enough to get black hided shorthorn cross calves. 

Hmm? Interesting-- what do you call the shorthorn plus deal that's been overrun with black?  How about the BLACK plus Heatwave deal that made the front cover of the Shorthorn country about 4 or 5 issues ago?  Odd that you say, black is not in the 'breed'.

No offense AJ and Outspoken, but if I felt the same way about shorthorns that you do, I would not be using a shorthorn bull or working with shorthorn cows.

Odd you bring this up-- it's my firm belief that in order to get good 'shorthorns'- you've got to have them loaded with Maine-- maybe not direct- but it needs to be in the pedigree.  The Maine/ Shorthorn thing just works so freaking good.  On the same attitude, I'm sure that AJ feels the same way about the Red Angus/ Shorthorn thing for the commercial sector-- and he's not the only one.  I know that the Number 1 commercial Shorthorn herd in the US- Rob Sneed- IMO- also believes in the Durham Red deal. 

Why do those deals work?  Back in the 80s when the shorthorn cows were tiny and thick-- they needed the extra pisazz of the Continental Red Maine bulls, and it worked wonders.  As the times have changed- our Shorthorn cows have gotten too big, and too narrow-- but the Maine deal is now just a generic Angus deal-- and so the cross still works wonders b/c they compliment each other so nicely.  IMO, the Red Angus deal is no different-- generic Angus-- maternal all the way. 

I just bought a group of 10 shorthorn heifers to continue to build around, and I'm extremely excited over them and their traditional breeding package of being different.  They are very steep in Maine blood, and I'm wondering how much more I can get away with putting into them.  Why do I continue with shorthorns-- they have breed identity- atleast mine do.  Sure I'll sell a show heifer every once in a while, but the real goal is just to create good cattle-- good cattle that can continue to make good cattle.  Good cattle that can feed, grow, cut, hang, and reproduce more just like them--- and be ROAN>  I'm a sucker for roan.

 

[J2F]

Hmm? Interesting-- what do you call the shorthorn plus deal that's been overrun with black?  How about the BLACK plus Heatwave deal that made the front cover of the Shorthorn country about 4 or 5 issues ago?  Odd that you say, black is not in the 'breed'.

Please explain.... Are you saying because at a few shows there are a few black shorthorn plus show cattle and one on a cover of a magazine that it qualifies as overrun? At the Ohio and KY expo I would say closer to 50 50 split on shorthorn color and other at those sales. And what about all the commercial outfits breeding the Durham red F1 crosses. Most of the Black + are bred as show cattle to popular club calf sires IMO and is hardly the majority.

Odd you bring this up-- it's my firm belief that in order to get good 'shorthorns'- you've got to have them loaded with Maine-- maybe not direct- but it needs to be in the pedigree.  The Maine/ Shorthorn thing just works so freaking good.  On the same attitude, I'm sure that AJ feels the same way about the Red Angus/ Shorthorn thing for the commercial sector-- and he's not the only one.  I know that the Number 1 commercial Shorthorn herd in the US- Rob Sneed- IMO- also believes in the Durham Red deal.

??? Is it not prov-en that the best commercial cattle are F1 crosses. Does anyone honestly believe that Angus got bigger frames without injected other gene pools into their breed. If you are looking for larger frame shorthorns then yes the Maine influenced shorthorns are the best(and yes that is what I like also) but if moderation is what you like then their are still shorthorns that  serve these breeders  too.

 

[kfacres]

??? Is it not prov-en that the best commercial cattle are F1 crosses. Does anyone honestly believe that Angus got bigger frames without injected other gene pools into their breed. If you are looking for larger frame shorthorns then yes the Maine influenced shorthorns are the best(and yes that is what I like also) but if moderation is what you like then their are still shorthorns that  serve these breeders  too.

I don't need a history lesson on crossbreeding. 

Around here- we're using the Maine's to downsize our 6 frames-- and keep the 5 frames down in frame score.  Why did we resort to Maines-- b/c that cross has proven it'self time and time again over the last 30 years (and the fact we can skip two generations to get to purebred 'status'-- and we can't find purebred Shorthorn blood to suit our needs in a genetically clean package--- to moderate and keep them down in frame...  The only consistent, clean, moderate line of Purebred Shorthorns I have found-- is the Proud Jazz line-- and I won't go there- today's not Sunday. 

There are plenty of other red lines of Shorthorns out there, but they are just a tad too commercial for our needs.  If I had more cows and more pasture-- I wouldn't mind buying about 30 of the nation's red commercial shorthorns-- the type from Gary Kaper, Rob Sneed, Aaron Rassmunssen, Sue M, and yes-- I'm even going to add Brock Eagon's name to the list...  <rock>

But at this point, I don't have the money-- and irons in too many other fires for this stage of my life...  But deep down, I'm sure this is the route we all need to take- it's just going to take us longer to get to it.

 

[J2F]

??? Is it not prove that the best commercial cattle are F1 crosses. Does anyone honestly believe that Angus got bigger frames without injected other gene pools into their breed. If you are looking for larger frame shorthorns then yes the Maine influenced shorthorns are the best(and yes that is what I like also) but if moderation is what you like then their are still shorthorns that serve these breeder's too.

I don't need a history lesson on crossbreeding. 

Around here- we're using the Maine's to downsize our 6 frames-- and keep the 5 frames down in frame score.  Why did we resort to Maines-- b/c that cross has proven it'self time and time again over the last 30 years (and the fact we can skip two generations to get to purebred 'status'-- and we can't find purebred Shorthorn blood to suit our needs in a genetically clean package--- to moderate and keep them down in frame...  The only consistent, clean, moderate line of Purebred Shorthorns I have found-- is the Proud Jazz line-- and I won't go there- today's not Sunday. 

There are plenty of other red lines of Shorthorns out there, but they are just a tad too commercial for our needs.  If I had more cows and more pasture-- I wouldn't mind buying about 30 of the nation's red commercial shorthorns-- the type from Gary Kaper, Rob Sneed, Aaron Rassmunssen, Sue M, and yes-- I'm even going to add Brock Eagon's name to the list...   <rock>

But at this point, I don't have the money-- and irons in too many other fires for this stage of my life...  But deep down, I'm sure this is the route we all need to take- it's just going to take us longer to get to it.

Was not trying to offend and defiantly not trying to teach. only asking the questions if for any reason  to learn.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

First off thanks for putting my name in that list but Im not sure I should be mentioned. Only thing I have to offer is semen on a few bulls of only one I bred. I have no more shorthorn females left. Except completes dam. I have a nice little deal cooking and if it comes true I will be a player again. I'm not saying what I'm doing because I don't like someone taking my ideas and beating me to the punch. But rest assured my plan involves shorthorns. They without a doubt hold a key piece to the survivability of the beef industry into the future. Jmo. I believe the testing and DNA deals, tenderness deals will put new light on the breed. RS DV 034 was tested shear force deal. About as tender as you could ask for. Time will tell. Today is a good mood shorthorn day for me. I have enjoyed the discussion

 

[RyanChandler]

Yearling bulls at Gary Kapers:

 

[kfacres]

First off thanks for putting my name in that list but Im not sure I should be mentioned. Only thing I have to offer is semen on a few bulls of only one I bred. I have no more shorthorn females left. Except completes dam. I have a nice little deal cooking and if it comes true I will be a player again. I'm not saying what I'm doing because I don't like someone taking my ideas and beating me to the punch. But rest assured my plan involves shorthorns. They without a doubt hold a key piece to the survivability of the beef industry into the future. Jmo. I believe the testing and DNA deals, tenderness deals will put new light on the breed. RS DV 034 was tested shear force deal. About as tender as you could ask for. Time will tell. Today is a good mood shorthorn day for me. I have enjoyed the discussion

The difference with your shorthorn herd of one donor cow-- and all the rest of them out there is???  I don't see a difference.

I sure don't see anything wrong with you taking your one cow, keeping back a bunch of daughters of hers from RS, to breed to Complete, or better yet, taking a bunch of your RS daughters from Angus cows-- breed to Complete-- and then back to a Clementine deal...

The percentage deal has a place-

 

[Doc]

There are plenty of other red lines of Shorthorns out there, but they are just a tad too commercial for our needs.  If I had more cows and more pasture-- I wouldn't mind buying about 30 of the nation's red commercial shorthorns-- the type from Gary Kaper, Rob Sneed, Aaron Rassmunssen, Sue M, and yes-- I'm even going to add Brock Eagon's name to the list...   <rock>

But at this point, I don't have the money-- and irons in too many other fires for this stage of my life...  But deep down, I'm sure this is the route we all need to take- it's just going to take us longer to get to it.

Now let me ask, when all you talk about is Shorthorns aren't accepted as commercial cattle, how does someone's cattle become "too commercial"?

 

[RyanChandler]

Form and Function

ASH VALLEY DUTY 7155

 

[aj]

I always wondered about bone......are there studies? Cutability and longevity issues. I think a certain amount of bone is good if the beast is clean jointed.

 

[GM]

Seems like going with Maine influence shorthorns would be more for maintaining a "show ring look", or keeping a club-calf revenue source open...rather than meeting the needs of the commercial industry.    When i think of the high birth weight stereotype i typically think of the modern maine influenced shorthorns - Trump, Solution, Nobodys Fool, Rose T90, Double Vision, Double Stuff, and old schoolers like Fifth Avenue, G9 (allegedly), and Enticer (allegedly).  I know I'm generalizing, but it's for the sake of discussion - sure some work better than others for different goals, situations, etc.  Hard to win in the show ring without the Maine in those pedigrees...and the irish too...just like it was hard to win in the 80's and early 90's frame score era without a shot of Ayatollah, Dividend, Dreamboat, or Rodeo Drive.  There'll be a different era soon...there always is.  I believe Shorthorns will gain commercial acceptance, but it will take breeders winning market share in their city, county, tri-county, state, etc. more-so than the ASA running ads in other mags or producing pamphlets. (i'm not a fan of the black and white "Black has met its match" ad campaign anyways...they'd be better off not mentioning black hides or angus at all)

Someone asked in this thread or another who the Express is of Shorthorns.  I'd say the closest thing Shorthorns had to an operation like that was HS in the late 70's and 80's.  However, the fallout may have further contributed to the Shorthorn decline at a time when the Angus assention was picking up steam.

 

[thunderdownunder]

...they'd be better off not mentioning black hides or angus at all

As would any breed wanting to give blacks a run for their money.... all you are doing by constantly talking black is giving them free promotion.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

I don't think shorthorns need crossed to be good. You gotta look and you will find what you seek. Like Bill Parcells says. " it's hard for me to cook a gourmet meal if I'm not allowed to buy the groceries. " a little from this guy. A little from that guy. And before you know it......your cookin with crisco!

 

[comercialfarmer]

And please cut the victim crap. No one is bashing shorthorns they are discussing Shorthorns. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't make them wrong. It doesn't mean they are bashing a breed. Even if your daddy is jit or okie dokie or whatever.

It has been a long while since I've read through this board.  When you left, it was like the sun stopped shining and birds stopped singing.  It's nice to see you made it back after your little time out and that you still think about me.   

By the way, I finally give up.  I admit you caught me.  Your just to good to get anything past.  It's not easy, and I'm ashamed of the things I've done.  I admit that in the past I've flown from Canada to Oklahoma so that my IP address would keep you off my trail.  I've even flown cattle from Canada to Oklahoma to photograph them so that I could post them on here.  But it is just too much anymore.  I can't afford to keep up this charade.  But I want you to always remember that I did it for you, I was always thinking of you while flying over Kansas. 

That is all.  Carry on......

 

[vanridge]

shorthorns were smart not to let black in. It's easy enough to get black hided shorthorn cross calves. 

Hmm? Interesting-- what do you call the shorthorn plus deal that's been overrun with black?  How about the BLACK plus Heatwave deal that made the front cover of the Shorthorn country about 4 or 5 issues ago?  Odd that you say, black is not in the 'breed'.

No offense AJ and Outspoken, but if I felt the same way about shorthorns that you do, I would not be using a shorthorn bull or working with shorthorn cows.

Odd you bring this up-- it's my firm belief that in order to get good 'shorthorns'- you've got to have them loaded with Maine-- maybe not direct- but it needs to be in the pedigree.  The Maine/ Shorthorn thing just works so freaking good.  On the same attitude, I'm sure that AJ feels the same way about the Red Angus/ Shorthorn thing for the commercial sector-- and he's not the only one.  I know that the Number 1 commercial Shorthorn herd in the US- Rob Sneed- IMO- also believes in the Durham Red deal. 

Why do those deals work?  Back in the 80s when the shorthorn cows were tiny and thick-- they needed the extra pisazz of the Continental Red Maine bulls, and it worked wonders.  As the times have changed- our Shorthorn cows have gotten too big, and too narrow-- but the Maine deal is now just a generic Angus deal-- and so the cross still works wonders b/c they compliment each other so nicely.  IMO, the Red Angus deal is no different-- generic Angus-- maternal all the way. 

I just bought a group of 10 shorthorn heifers to continue to build around, and I'm extremely excited over them and their traditional breeding package of being different.  They are very steep in Maine blood, and I'm wondering how much more I can get away with putting into them.  Why do I continue with shorthorns-- they have breed identity- atleast mine do.  Sure I'll sell a show heifer every once in a while, but the real goal is just to create good cattle-- good cattle that can continue to make good cattle.  Good cattle that can feed, grow, cut, hang, and reproduce more just like them--- and be ROAN>  I'm a sucker for roan.

So what you're saying is that you like Maine cattle and you add a bit of shorthorn because you like the color pattern?