angus defects

[garybob]

A lot of ground covered in this thread.The Angus and Hereford breeds are viable today because of men like Conrad Warren who within a few months of paying 50,000 for a bull at Denver in the forties when a dollar was worth somthing sent him to slaughter after finding out he was a dwarf carrier.Cattlemen,what you do today will effect your respective breeds and operations for years to come.
I have a lot of respect for the way the Angus breed has promoted themselves with the CAB,but I think they have opened the door for someone to grab market share now that you can get ''Angus Beef'' at any fast food retaurant.It will soon become the new average.
I n 1901 the first grand champion steer at the International was touted as a purebred angus.H e had white socks on his rear legs kind of like a lot of Shorthorns of that era

Guys!!! Hey, now,if you line breed a lot of Emulous Cattle, that white'll pop up, too. My very good friend, and boyhood hero, Mr. James Fancher Roberts, 300 head, all 95% Emulous&ALLLLLLLL of 'em Registered to the core, told me so, when I asked about a B&W newborn calf.

GB

 

[aj]

<beer>

 

[hamburgman]

i don't really care about the purity of anything.  it really doesn't matter.  my point is, that about 8 years ago till recently, some popular maine's were used on not yet known defect cattle, at least by the purchaser and maybe that's why they were sold because seller knew but didn't know what was going on and the angus mother was bred to say ali, then bred to say sooner, and then to the next popular maine bull, all the while carrying those angus defects.  the angus will have cleaned themselves up by the time the maine's find out, and then maine's will be scapegoated as the defect breed, while the angus breed, harboring defects all these years, will have escaped scrutiny again.


one can look at the family tree produced by jerry taylor to see similarities.  i think all cattle came from auroch's so what's the big deal.  it's more a problem with marketing than anything else.  one could conclude ankony had money and that overrode any concerns of purity.  big deal.

Agreed Knabe, the idea of what really makes a breed is open to interpretation and hard to corner with science, I know people who claim that most clubby bulls are really a breed of their own, "clubby" and when you see that in some species 7/8 is pure, I would say certain bulls would fall into this category.

 

[OH Breeder]

I would believe that steer that won the 1901 first international to be named advance not a 100% but pretty sure and yes he did have some white on his leg but there was a time you could show only angus steer with white on places other than behind the navel. If that steer was advance the americas oldest purebred angus herd raised him the Pierces also known as Woodlawn Farms Il and here is a section about the angus history that will solve my shorthorn friends myth

Shorthorn Breed Threatens the Aberdeen-Angus. In 1810, the Colling brothers of England sold the famous Shorthorn bull Comet at $5,000. The publicity resulting from this sale naturally spread throughout Scotland, and many breeders looked with favor upon the use of Shorthorn blood in improving the native cattle. Subsequently good herds of Shorthorn cattle were established in Scotland, and the cattle were used in the improvement of native stock. The use of the Shorthorn cattle on the black native cows was a very common practice of the period for the raising of commercial stock. This practice of crossbreeding threatened the Aberdeen-Angus breed with extinction.

    It is often suggested that some Shorthorn blood found its way into the Aberdeen-Angus breed prior to the time the Herd Book was closed. Alexander Keith, secretary of the Aberdeen-Angus Cattle Society from 1944 to 1955, takes exception to this opinion by writing:

The statement has been frequently made that shorthorn blood was introduced into the Aberdeen-Angus breed at an early stage of its existence. There is no foundation whatever for such a statement. The tribes from which the Aberdeen-Angus breed were drawn were supplying England with beef cattle for generations before what became the beef Shorthorn was taken across the Border into Scotland and improved into what is known as the Scotch Shorthorn. Of the Aberdeen-Angus pioneers, Hugh Watson had a certain number of Shorthorn cattle, but it is quite evident from his won remarks and his insistence upon the blackness of his Aberdeen-Angus cattle that he would never have permitted mixing them. And McCombie: when one or two farmers introduced the Teeswater or Shorthorn breed into his neighborhood he drove them out by completely dominating the local shows with his Aberdeen-Angus black polls. The feeling of the early improvers of Aberdeen-Angus cattle may be gathered from the fact that my own grandfather, who was one of McCombie’s friends and associates, would not allow anything but a black beast on his farm and in his old age when I was a young boy he would insist that if I ever became a farmer and wished to be a successful feeder of cattle I must stick rigidly to the Blacks.


Reference:

Briggs, H.M. & D.M. Briggs. Modern Breeds of Livestock. Fourth Edition. Macmillan Publishing Co. 1980 (reprinted with permission from Dr. Briggs).

I am glad you backed your opinion up with research of the topic.  There are a lot of people with opinions based out of jealousy toward the angus breed that post "facts" that have no basis of truth.  We have to acknowledge the success of the angus breed.  They excel in maternal and carcass traits that lead to profitability in the cattle business.

The Angus defects will have no consequences on the Maine registry if they properly monitor them to avoid breeding carrier animals.  We know the club calf breeders are very accurate with reporting their sires, performance data, scan data, and other performance measures to accurately calculate their pedigrees and EPD profiles. (This is sarcasm.)

Thank you angus showman for your post.

NONE OF WHAT I POSTED IS OPINION. DO A GOOGLE SEARCH you will find many prominent univeristies and breed organizations that quote the same information that I posted. HENCE that is where it came from. What the showman posted was ONE MAN"S OPINOIN disputing that Shorthorn existed in there breed. I would bet to say the folks doing actual blood typing are probably little more accurate than some OPINIONS from 1800's.
If you had been around livestock all your life then you would know no one breed is perfect. EVER hear of a little thing called HYBRID VIGOR?

 

[stithka]

I would believe that steer that won the 1901 first international to be named advance not a 100% but pretty sure and yes he did have some white on his leg but there was a time you could show only angus steer with white on places other than behind the navel. If that steer was advance the americas oldest purebred angus herd raised him the Pierces also known as Woodlawn Farms Il and here is a section about the angus history that will solve my shorthorn friends myth

Shorthorn Breed Threatens the Aberdeen-Angus. In 1810, the Colling brothers of England sold the famous Shorthorn bull Comet at $5,000. The publicity resulting from this sale naturally spread throughout Scotland, and many breeders looked with favor upon the use of Shorthorn blood in improving the native cattle. Subsequently good herds of Shorthorn cattle were established in Scotland, and the cattle were used in the improvement of native stock. The use of the Shorthorn cattle on the black native cows was a very common practice of the period for the raising of commercial stock. This practice of crossbreeding threatened the Aberdeen-Angus breed with extinction.

    It is often suggested that some Shorthorn blood found its way into the Aberdeen-Angus breed prior to the time the Herd Book was closed. Alexander Keith, secretary of the Aberdeen-Angus Cattle Society from 1944 to 1955, takes exception to this opinion by writing:

The statement has been frequently made that shorthorn blood was introduced into the Aberdeen-Angus breed at an early stage of its existence. There is no foundation whatever for such a statement. The tribes from which the Aberdeen-Angus breed were drawn were supplying England with beef cattle for generations before what became the beef Shorthorn was taken across the Border into Scotland and improved into what is known as the Scotch Shorthorn. Of the Aberdeen-Angus pioneers, Hugh Watson had a certain number of Shorthorn cattle, but it is quite evident from his won remarks and his insistence upon the blackness of his Aberdeen-Angus cattle that he would never have permitted mixing them. And McCombie: when one or two farmers introduced the Teeswater or Shorthorn breed into his neighborhood he drove them out by completely dominating the local shows with his Aberdeen-Angus black polls. The feeling of the early improvers of Aberdeen-Angus cattle may be gathered from the fact that my own grandfather, who was one of McCombie’s friends and associates, would not allow anything but a black beast on his farm and in his old age when I was a young boy he would insist that if I ever became a farmer and wished to be a successful feeder of cattle I must stick rigidly to the Blacks.


Reference:

Briggs, H.M. & D.M. Briggs. Modern Breeds of Livestock. Fourth Edition. Macmillan Publishing Co. 1980 (reprinted with permission from Dr. Briggs).

I am glad you backed your opinion up with research of the topic.  There are a lot of people with opinions based out of jealousy toward the angus breed that post "facts" that have no basis of truth.  We have to acknowledge the success of the angus breed.  They excel in maternal and carcass traits that lead to profitability in the cattle business.

The Angus defects will have no consequences on the Maine registry if they properly monitor them to avoid breeding carrier animals.  We know the club calf breeders are very accurate with reporting their sires, performance data, scan data, and other performance measures to accurately calculate their pedigrees and EPD profiles. (This is sarcasm.)

Thank you angus showman for your post.

NONE OF WHAT I POSTED IS OPINION. DO A GOOGLE SEARCH you will find many prominent univeristies and breed organizations that quote the same information that I posted. HENCE that is where it came from. What the showman posted was ONE MAN"S OPINOIN disputing that Shorthorn existed in there breed. I would bet to say the folks doing actual blood typing are probably little more accurate than some OPINIONS from 1800's.
If you had been around livestock all your life then you would know no one breed is perfect. EVER hear of a little thing called HYBRID VIGOR?

I have been around livestock all my life.  As a matter of fact I have worked for two universities as a livestock specialist.  Just because you googled something and it has been read on the internet doesn't make it fact.  I have heard of heterosis.  It can be a useful tool.  When the maine's, chi's, shorthorn's, composites (These are all crossbreds) can match my weaning and yearling weights I will think about using some of these mongrelized breeds.  The only reason I use any maine genetics is so my daughter can have a pretty (read that dysfunctional fluffy ring puppy) show steer.

 

[OH Breeder]

Stithka says...."I have been around livestock all my life.  As a matter of fact I have worked for two universities as a livestock specialist.  Just because you googled something and it has been read on the internet doesn't make it fact.  I have heard of heterosis.  It can be a useful tool.  When the Maine's, chi's, shorthorn's, composites (These are all crossbreds) can match my weaning and yearling weights I will think about using some of these mongrelized breeds.  The only reason I use any maine genetics is so my daughter can have a pretty (read that dysfunctional fluffy ring puppy) show steer."

Go to world book encyclopedia or any cattle book and read the "history of the breed" .Keep lots of those in my library. POINT IS Really not that difficult to verify a source on line when checking reference. I will make sure I let Oklahoma Univ. and Ohio State Univ. know that some folks on steer planet doubt the validity of their sources.

Mongrelized....are you seriously referring to shorthorns as Mongrels? That is absolutely hilarious. Holsteins .....what..... Chi's...... no none of that blood is running around in the American Angus blood......that is about one of the funniest post I have read in a long time. I highly doubt there are many PURE breeds left whether you think your Angus are pure or not.

If you are so firm in your belief that Angus are the end all be all source then why cross with the Maine's at all. Have pride in what you raise and take it in to the ring. Supposedly no one that raises Angus are chasing show fades or at least that is what one of the above post you found so informative and agreeable believes.

 

[Cattledog]

Stithka says...."I have been around livestock all my life.  As a matter of fact I have worked for two universities as a livestock specialist.  Just because you googled something and it has been read on the internet doesn't make it fact.  I have heard of heterosis.  It can be a useful tool.  When the Maine's, chi's, shorthorn's, composites (These are all crossbreds) can match my weaning and yearling weights I will think about using some of these mongrelized breeds.  The only reason I use any maine genetics is so my daughter can have a pretty (read that dysfunctional fluffy ring puppy) show steer."

Go to world book encyclopedia or any cattle book and read the "history of the breed" .Keep lots of those in my library. POINT IS Really not that difficult to verify a source on line when checking reference. I will make sure I let Oklahoma Univ. and Ohio State Univ. know that some folks on steer planet doubt the validity of their sources.

Mongrelized....are you seriously referring to shorthorns as Mongrels? That is absolutely hilarious. Holsteins .....what..... Chi's...... no none of that blood is running around in the American Angus blood......that is about one of the funniest post I have read in a long time. I highly doubt there are many PURE breeds left whether you think your Angus are pure or not.

If you are so firm in your belief that Angus are the end all be all source then why cross with the Maine's at all. Have pride in what you raise and take it in to the ring. Supposedly no one that raises Angus are chasing show fades or at least that is what one of the above post you found so informative and agreeable believes.

This started out as a genetic defect post.  Now we are in a cage match of Angus vs. Shorthorn!  If you had a shorthorn bull to fight for the honor of your breed who would it be.  I'm an angus guy so I'm gonna say Scotch Cap.  He was supposedly a fighter and a good one!  We had some Scotch Cap calves and I tell you what......... they were chips off the old block! (lol)

 

[angus showman]

I never said angus were the purest breed out there if you refer to other post of mine I admit that holsteins have had thier influence on the breed but I will dispute the shorthorn people who seem to be the only ones saying on here shorthorns were bred into the angus breed. Once again I wold not worry about ANGUS DEFECTS they will not be around for long no carriers can be registered and the carrier bulls are pretty much extintic from being used Angus breed solves thier problems unlike shorthorns TH. TO FINISH MY STATEMENT I WOULD LIKE TO THANK ALL YOU SHORTHORN BREEDERS WHO BELIEVE THE SHORTHORNS WERE BREED TO ANGUS IF THATS THE CASE WE CAN LOOK FORWARD TO THAT AWFUL TH DEFECT DOWN THE ROAD TO SHOW UP IN OUR ANGUS AND YOU CAN SAY TO US THANK YOU FOR ELIMANTING IT ALSO.

 

[fullblood]

so are you crossing your angus cow to black maine or fullbloods? i think the fullbloods will get  pure blood lines?

 

[OH Breeder]

Cattledog says.....This started out as a genetic defect post.  Now we are in a cage match of Angus vs. Shorthorn!  If you had a shorthorn bull to fight for the honor of your breed who would it be.  I'm an angus guy so I'm gonna say Scotch Cap.  He was supposedly a fighter and a good one!  We had some Scotch Cap calves and I tell you what......... they were chips off the old block!


My issue is NOT with any breed. I enjoy Shorthorns have grown up around and with them all my life. We also have two Simmis, a couple of Maines and a couple of Angus based cows. I like each one for a different reason. The bulk of our herd is Shorthorn. I have always enjoyed the temperament of Shorthorn cattle. Besides Simmi's (for US) they have been one of the more docile breeds to handle. The worst ones were LUCY BOY cows.  They were meaner than dirt. I just don't think you can say there is ONE breed that is the BEST. Each breed can contribute traits to hybrid vigor. I take full advantage of that.  It is hard for me to single out one great shorthorn bull. There are several that come to mind. I have some that I prefer to use because I have never found a replacement that is just as good. For me I will always have an affinity for Gizmo. He just has done what we need him to do consistently without letting me down.

What I don't like is some making blanket statements about a whole breed. It just isn't relevant to today's commercial market/feedlots. There are several in our neck of the woods and they are full of color.( they ain't all black)  Most of them don't care if they are registered or not.  And its BS to say your breed is so pure when we already know what many did in the 80s to get the step ladder cattle.

 

[OH Breeder]

I never said Angus were the purest breed out there if you refer to other post of mine I admit that Holsteins have had their influence on the breed but I will dispute the shorthorn people who seem to be the only ones saying on here shorthorns were bred into the Angus breed. Once again I wold not worry about ANGUS DEFECTS they will not be around for long no carriers can be registered and the carrier bulls are pretty much extinct from being used Angus breed solves their problems unlike shorthorns TH. TO FINISH MY STATEMENT I WOULD LIKE TO THANK ALL YOU SHORTHORN BREEDERS WHO BELIEVE THE SHORTHORNS WERE BREED TO ANGUS IF THATS THE CASE WE CAN LOOK FORWARD TO THAT AWFUL TH DEFECT DOWN THE ROAD TO SHOW UP IN OUR ANGUS AND YOU CAN SAY TO US THANK YOU FOR ELIMANTING IT ALSO.

DL can you help me on this one. I didn't know there was only one defect with Angus cattle?

TH is non issue for some people in the breed. You have to know how to manage your herd irregardless what current trends are using carrier cattle.

 

[Cattledog]

OH Breeder, I never said we were the purest of pure.  I do appreciate my breed for the consistency that I get out of my cows. I take pride in my cows just as you obviously do.  You may have the same consistency with your shorthorns....I don't know.

Do I think Angus are the best....you bet!  I would hope you would feel the same way about your shorthorns!  

 

[aj]

I was taught that there were different breeds to excell in different traits. You have terminal breeds and maternal breeds and even dual purpose breeds. There are reports of homesteaders using say Milking Shorthorns to milk for family,meat for family and even pulling a plow or wagon. Times have changed. They will change again. I think predictability is more important than pureism. You can take a frame score 9 purebred Shorthorn and breed him to 100 frame score 4 purebred Shorthorns and you will have frame score sizes all over the place. You would have purebred cattle withh no predictability for frame score. You could take a linebred say Durham Red bull(frame 5 and breed him to 100 say limi flex heifers(frame 5) and alot of frame scores would bang in there at frame 5's. And this would be more predictable as 4 way cross for frame scores then the purebred cattle. The key to predictability is to consisently line up desired traits. Selection pressure. However if you want to utilize hybrid vigor it is best to cross two (quote unquote) purebreds. I also think if you linebred say gelbvieh balancers(half angus and half gelbvieh) over 3 generations and used them on a Shorthorn there would be a certain amount of heterosis created there. The one thing I hate to see is all the showring cattle of different breeds trying to have the same phenotype in the ring. Say a heatwave pheno type or whatever. In the commercial cattle segment....currently almost all breeds are trying to look like Angus or hitch their wagon to the black hide deal. This can be good or bad depending on what they do with there future mating decesions. Does the industry need 21 different breeds. Most likely not. Maintaining a germ plasm of all kinds of traits cattle is good cause the industry may need the gold colored simmental of yesteryear someday. The price of corn can change and consumer preferences change and who knows what will be popular 100 years from now.

 

[DL]

I never said Angus were the purest breed out there if you refer to other post of mine I admit that Holsteins have had their influence on the breed but I will dispute the shorthorn people who seem to be the only ones saying on here shorthorns were bred into the Angus breed. Once again I wold not worry about ANGUS DEFECTS they will not be around for long no carriers can be registered and the carrier bulls are pretty much extinct from being used Angus breed solves their problems unlike shorthorns TH. TO FINISH MY STATEMENT I WOULD LIKE TO THANK ALL YOU SHORTHORN BREEDERS WHO BELIEVE THE SHORTHORNS WERE BREED TO ANGUS IF THATS THE CASE WE CAN LOOK FORWARD TO THAT AWFUL TH DEFECT DOWN THE ROAD TO SHOW UP IN OUR ANGUS AND YOU CAN SAY TO US THANK YOU FOR ELIMANTING IT ALSO.

DL can you help me on this one. I didn't know there was only one defect with Angus cattle?

TH is non issue for some people in the breed. You have to know how to manage your herd irregardless what current trends are using carrier cattle.

WOW - panties in a wad - please don't insult anyones mother, sister, wife, girl fried, truck, cattle, breed, state...

Angus defects
Arthrogryposis multiplex (AM, AKA curley calf)

Neurohydrocephalus (NH)  - both AM and NH trace to 1680, NH originated with 1680 and AM with 9J9 - I believe there are >100,000 1680 progeny registered

FCS (fawn calf syndrome) traces thru the Barbara cow

Long nosed dwarf (Long head dwarf) thru 7D7

Osteopetrosis (AKA marble bone) - may go back to an Angus bull born in 1900

Itty bitty - proportional dwarf

Syndactly (mule foot)

there are likely more but these are the biggies

Although the AAA will eventually limit registration of carrier cattle and the use of carrier bulls - this only applies to registered cattle and as we have all seen before the dumping of the carriers is ongoing

TH was documented in Galloways - it is unclear if the mutation in Galloways is the same as in Shorthorns since they eradicated the problem with test breedings and pregnancy termination to identify carriers - there are no Galloway sampels

it is likely that TH originated with Deerpark Improver, a Shorthorn bull imported to the US way after Shorthorns were introduced into Angus cattle. I truly doubt that anyone in the AAA past or present would admit to any impurity in the breed at any time in recorded history. I would be more inclined to believe Harlan Ritchie - a beef guru with a keen knowledge of breed history than a former secretary of an association - Bill Clinton said "I did not have sexual relations with that woman..." Yeah, and we believed him too :

 

[hamburgman]

I think that TH came with the Tulip 5th cow, but I could be wrong

 

[shortyjock89]

I think that TH came with the Tulip 5th cow, but I could be wrong

What is Tulip's story?

I've always been told that Improver brought it in because he was part Galloway. Irish Shorthorn breeders didn't exactly keep a precise herdbook in those days. 

 

[Cattledog]

I think that TH came with the Tulip 5th cow, but I could be wrong

What is Tulip's story?

I've always been told that Improver brought it in because he was part Galloway. Irish Shorthorn breeders didn't exactly keep a precise herdbook in those days. 

Justin, you just opened a new can of worms!

 

[shortyjock89]

LOL. It's just true. 

 

[knabe]

Bill Clinton said "I did not have sexual relations with that woman..." Yeah, and we believed him too :

i didn't.  clinton likes younger women.  tries to pick them up wherever he goes.  he tried to get the phone numbers of two of my employees at a book signing.  he's worse than edwards in my book, waaaaaaaaaaaay worse.

 

[jbw]

WOW, this thread was SMOKIN' today!  I have to back up a couple of pages, The MAIN reason that cattle are select is cost, the choice-select spread is so close that it is not feasable to take the cattle to choice.That last 30 days is the most inefficient time in a feeders life. Corn has been high as well.  With the economy the way it is the lower $ cuts are selling better. Hamburger is what really moves in these trying times.

Nothing against those of you that raise grass fed beef, BUT, I tried it, ONCE, NOT FOR ME.  I like the corn fed.