Planned C-sections

[OH Breeder]

This outcome will potentially ruin the heifer.  Hopefully you've learned from this and now know what type of bulls NOT to breed heifers to.  Good luck.

I hate to wish bad luck on anyone-- but I see absolutely no positively good coming from this experience as well. 

I can almost forcast a ruint heifer- a dead calf- an expensive vet bill- and a bunch of unhappy people saying-- man i wish we would have...

Good luck-- you're going to need all you can get, IMO. 

Jody how many c-sections have you all done?

We have done a few over my short 40 years. we've never had one "stunt" the growth of a heifer and if your vet is good they are pretty easy to do. We just did one two weeks ago due to the shape of calf. It was a first calf heifer and the calf had lot of bone. She was AI bred but was covered by the bull accidently. Those two together really made one little chunk. If you have an experienced vet it is not a big deal.

I would have lots of towels on hand to dry the calf off and clear its airway.OB chains.  I went a step further due to some previous experience and have suction, cat gut, etc. Colostrum for sure just in case. It takes you a little more time for heifer to get acclimated to the new baby. You will have to spend some time getting the two acquainted.

Vets charge $300-400 one vet I had charged more for emergent sections and it was $600-700. When you look at the health of the female and getting a live calf on the ground it seems pretty minimal in the big scheme of things.

 

[hamburgman]

Plenty of cows have successful careers after c-sections.  More of a management issue usually than the actual c-section. 

When you say "hes never thrown a calf over 70lbs," is that within your heard, or what was said of the bull when you bought him?  I just find it hard to believe that a bull could throw a calf that's nearly 50% larger than any calf it threw prior...

Don't you have to breed any bull at least once in your herd to find out if he is calving ease in your herd?  Sounds like the homework was done and there was a legitimate reason to feel he would be calving ease in this herd.

 

[Showin a Shorty]

For everyones question on the bull, he has been used on heifers before both in our herd and others. We leased him out about a year ago to a commercial guy (has angus/ herford and some maines mixed all up) that was very happy with his calves. We were the first owners to use him as a breeding bull, bought him at about 10 months old. Just a freak accident I guess. The other part that didn't help was the fact that she was fed as a show heifer=lots and lots of feed=big hefty calf. We took her off her show ration about 3 months ago and kicked her out with the cows on pasture (we mainly graze) but I guess it was just too late to keep the calf small. Also there was a queston on the cost involved and this was the breakdown my vet gave me
Farm call: $45.00
Surgery: $250.00
Supplies: $50.00
Sedation: $10.00
We also discussed what we would use as far as antibiotics and I have most of them on hand so that would have to factor in at some point but is an expense that has already been paid for. The same way with the Dex and Lute to induce her. I think everything all together adds up to more than I would like to have to pay but am wiling to do so. It is better than having to bury a $5000.00 show heifer plus the calf.
Thanks for all he fed back

 

[OH Breeder]

Plenty of cows have successful careers after c-sections.  More of a management issue usually than the actual c-section. 

When you say "hes never thrown a calf over 70lbs," is that within your heard, or what was said of the bull when you bought him?  I just find it hard to believe that a bull could throw a calf that's nearly 50% larger than any calf it threw prior...

Don't you have to breed any bull at least once in your herd to find out if he is calving ease in your herd?  Sounds like the homework was done and there was a legitimate reason to feel he would be calving ease in this herd.

There is always a genetic outlier with calving ease bulls. The dam could have carried all the birth weights. I have one cow in the herd that has had one calf under 100#'s no matter what I use on her. I made the mistake of using one of the more popular sires that had some birth weight and she dropped a 130# tough delivery. She always has had a marketable calf. its happen to the best of them. don't sweat it. Goodluck with the section post the results if you would.

 

[RyanChandler]

A bull that throws calves anywhere near 100lbs shouldn't be used on heifers regardless.  I don't need to know what bull it was to say it shouldn't have been used.

So, are you saying don't breed a bull like say JPJ to a heifer? Several people I know have had 100 +ers by him. I don't care what bull or what breed , you will have certain genetic combinations that when combined create a heavier calf, even when that is not in either ones' background.

 

The heifer was bred to a calving ease bull that has never thrown a calf over 70lbs, they have also all been unassisted.

We now know the bull is not calving ease.  When you say "hes never thrown a calf over 70lbs," is that within your heard, or what was said of the bull when you bought him?  I just find it hard to believe that a bull could throw a calf that's nearly 50% larger than any calf it threw prior... Not calling you a liar by any means, that is just HIGHLY unusual- regardless of what you bred him to. 

A 90 lb calf is less than 30 % larger, not 50%. She also hasn't calved yet, it could be 80 lbs. Time will tell.
[/quote]. Any female that throws a 100lber out of JPJ has terminal bw issue of her own .  The JPJ son I've used had a 73lb bw. Hes out of a dunbeacon venture daughter that had a 102lb bw.  The bulls never thrown over 89.  And that was from a +4bw heifer.

Where did you get 90lb? The OP said vet called it as 100lbs- which is actually 42.29% larger than 70lbs.  If it were 90lbs, you're right it be almost 30% larger.

 

[cornish]

Plenty of cows have successful careers after c-sections.  More of a management issue usually than the actual c-section. 

When you say "hes never thrown a calf over 70lbs," is that within your heard, or what was said of the bull when you bought him?  I just find it hard to believe that a bull could throw a calf that's nearly 50% larger than any calf it threw prior...

Don't you have to breed any bull at least once in your herd to find out if he is calving ease in your herd?  Sounds like the homework was done and there was a legitimate reason to feel he would be calving ease in this herd.

There is always a genetic outlier with calving ease bulls. The dam could have carried all the birth weights. I have one cow in the herd that has had one calf under 100#'s no matter what I use on her. I made the mistake of using one of the more popular sires that had some birth weight and she dropped a 130# tough delivery. She always has had a marketable calf. its happen to the best of them. don't sweat it. Goodluck with the section post the results if you would.

no comparison b/w a COW and a heifer...  let alone a SHOW heifer... 

if you have a cow that cannot drop a 100 pound calf on her own-- she needs to go to town.  period end of statement.

 

[RyanChandler]

 

if you have a cow that cannot drop a 100 pound calf on her own-- she needs to go to town.  period end of statement.

That would wipe out half the nation's cow herd. 

 

[OH Breeder]

Plenty of cows have successful careers after c-sections.  More of a management issue usually than the actual c-section. 

When you say "hes never thrown a calf over 70lbs," is that within your heard, or what was said of the bull when you bought him?  I just find it hard to believe that a bull could throw a calf that's nearly 50% larger than any calf it threw prior...

Don't you have to breed any bull at least once in your herd to find out if he is calving ease in your herd?  Sounds like the homework was done and there was a legitimate reason to feel he would be calving ease in this herd.

There is always a genetic outlier with calving ease bulls. The dam could have carried all the birth weights. I have one cow in the herd that has had one calf under 100#'s no matter what I use on her. I made the mistake of using one of the more popular sires that had some birth weight and she dropped a 130# tough delivery. She always has had a marketable calf. its happen to the best of them. don't sweat it. Goodluck with the section post the results if you would.

no comparison b/w a COW and a heifer...  let alone a SHOW heifer... 

if you have a cow that cannot drop a 100 pound calf on her own-- she needs to go to town.  period end of statement.

At one time that cow was a show heifer and she had a 100#er with a calving ease bull. What dont you get about these comparison' s Jody? It is not always about the birthweight. The shape is usually the prime factor in Dystocia.
You don't raise show cattle you said yourself. I think those genetics are more unpredictable than some for a variety of reasons. Explain to me why a cow who can't have 100# square block should go to town?

 

[cornish]

 

if you have a cow that cannot drop a 100 pound calf on her own-- she needs to go to town.  period end of statement.

That would wipe out half the nation's cow herd. 

so you are saying 1/2 the MATURE cows in the country can't deliver a 100# calf?  I don't buy it.  I've been to commercial places that have 80-90# bull calves slide out of these mamma cows in less than 5 min- I highly doubt that with a little pushing they can't deliver a calf 10 pounds more.  
I bet in the norther climates- 100# isn't far from average...

Hey OHOB.. I recall hearing this heifer was bred to an Angus bull--  Enlighten me on an Angus bull that makes square blocks??

 

[CAB]

Jody I can't find anywhere in this thread that it says that this heifer was bred to an Angus bull although it may have been. Are you hearing things from someone else?

 

[djbsimmy]

Let us know how the section goes.  We run 200 beef cows and usually have 1 unplanned section a year.  Havent lost any cows to it, most rebreed but are later than rest of herd.  Our main problem is keeping flys away from incision afterward.  You should have a good chance at a live calf, the ones we lose are the ones we waited too long on because we wasted time trying to pull it.  I've also calving ease bulls throw large calves.  This year we had a 98 lb calf from proven simmental bull Goldmine,  genetics probably played a part as the heifer was sired by shorthorn bull Vegas and she too was a show heifer for us.  I wish you best of luck!

 

[KSUwildcat2009]

Really glad people have brought up that the momma brings in 1/2 the genetics AND the environment of the calf.  I think a lot of people forget this very important piece of information sometimes!!  Good luck, I hope it turns out well for you!

 

[firesweepranch]

  I've also calving ease bulls throw large calves.  This year we had a 98 lb calf from proven simmental bull Goldmine,  genetics probably played a part as the heifer was sired by shorthorn bull Vegas and she too was a show heifer for us.  I wish you best of luck!

Ditto here. Had a 110 pound calf out of RC Stetson, who is a proven calving ease bull. The heifer was a purebred Simmental with great EPD's out of Brooks Above Par. She was just on hay (calved the end of December)... just happens!

 

[aj]

We all wish you luck........let us know how everything comes out.

 

[OH Breeder]

 

if you have a cow that cannot drop a 100 pound calf on her own-- she needs to go to town.  period end of statement.

That would wipe out half the nation's cow herd. 

so you are saying 1/2 the MATURE cows in the country can't deliver a 100# calf?  I don't buy it.  I've been to commercial places that have 80-90# bull calves slide out of these mamma cows in less than 5 min- I highly doubt that with a little pushing they can't deliver a calf 10 pounds more.  
I bet in the norther climates- 100# isn't far from average...

Hey OHOB.. I recall hearing this heifer was bred to an Angus bull--  Enlighten me on an Angus bull that makes square blocks??

I missed the angus part. But I will tell you this the heifer is a Sonny x Mona Lisa NEITHER of those bloodlines are easy calving. The section we did two weeks ago was on an Asset bred heifer . You didn't answer my previous question on how c-sections YOU have done on your Cattle. You are trying to compare commercial herd to show heifer ? Really?
It's unfortunate that this happened this way but as AJ said above Good Luck!

 

[aj]

If you pull the calf......."Let the force be with you"!

 

[cornish]

I missed the angus part. But I will tell you this the heifer is a Sonny x Mona Lisa NEITHER of those bloodlines are easy calving. The section we did two weeks ago was on an Asset bred heifer . Sounds like Asset is pretty closely linked to C- Sections...

You didn't answer my previous question on how c-sections YOU have done on your Cattle. I personally have performed 5 C-Sections... Each ended with a bullet to the skull of the female-- to A: do away with that bloodline, and B: give me a good reason not to "try" her again.  Our vet came out and told us he's never saved an animal doing a C- Section- doesn't have enough experience with it, and doesn't do it often enough.  So we figured for the price we would pay him to do the work, and get a dead mama-- we could do it ourselves.

 

[Showin a Shorty]

Thanks for all the support. The bull was not an angus, not sure where someone came up with that. He is a purebred shorthorn.

 

[Showin a Shorty]

You didn't answer my previous question on how c-sections YOU have done on your Cattle. I personally have performed 5 C-Sections... Each ended with a bullet to the skull of the female-- to A: do away with that bloodline, and B: give me a good reason not to "try" her again.  Our vet came out and told us he's never saved an animal doing a C- Section- doesn't have enough experience with it, and doesn't do it often enough.  So we figured for the price we would pay him to do the work, and get a dead mama-- we could do it ourselves.
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[/quote]

I would say the only reason that you have not success would be because you didn't try. For whatever reason it made more sense to you to just shoot the cow first, I think that if this is your method to a c-section you are not going to have many live cows in the end. I may be wrong but if you start with a dead cow that is all your going to get and last I heard they are a booger to get preg. So it would make sense not to keep them. (unless I read your post wrong and then it would seem as though you were doing the surgery yourself, which unless you are expricened would not make sense) We are very happy with the vet we have lined up to complete this surgery. He performs almost all of the c-sections where I work (so far about 20 this year, they are holstein heifer recips with holstein show calves in them) and has not lost any. Fingers crossed he keeps up his track record after he leaves my house. 

 

[OH Breeder]

I missed the angus part. But I will tell you this the heifer is a Sonny x Mona Lisa NEITHER of those bloodlines are easy calving. The section we did two weeks ago was on an Asset bred heifer . Sounds like Asset is pretty closely linked to C- Sections...

You didn't answer my previous question on how c-sections YOU have done on your Cattle. I personally have performed 5 C-Sections... Each ended with a bullet to the skull of the female-- to A: do away with that bloodline, and B: give me a good reason not to "try" her again.  Our vet came out and told us he's never saved an animal doing a C- Section- doesn't have enough experience with it, and doesn't do it often enough.  So we figured for the price we would pay him to do the work, and get a dead mama-- we could do it ourselves.

NOT ON SHEEP....We are talking cattle. If you are that poor at doing c-sections on cattle that they have to be shot after you are done with them. Save the animal the misery and shoot them before you do the c-section.