Possum Trot Ranch said:
A c-section is a ton more difficult once the feet are out and head is in the pelvis - indecision and poor planning are the cause of a great many more train wrecks than planning a c-section
glad it all worked out for you S a S
Planned C-sections
- Thread starter Showin a Shorty
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A c-section is a ton more difficult once the feet are out and head is in the pelvis - indecision and poor planning are the cause of a great many more train wrecks than planning a c-section
glad it all worked out for you S a S
RyanChandler
Well-known member
Dusty,
I've gotta know the story behind your "signature" about the opossum. I had one in my garage I tried to get for an hr. Lil bastrd kept getting under my truck- then Ide chase him out, he'd run to another side of the garage. I did't knw what to do - no bb gun- I finally got him with rat poison!
I've gotta know the story behind your "signature" about the opossum. I had one in my garage I tried to get for an hr. Lil bastrd kept getting under my truck- then Ide chase him out, he'd run to another side of the garage. I did't knw what to do - no bb gun- I finally got him with rat poison!
I bet the Average Red angus calf is 15-20lbs lighter than the average shorthorn calf. I have 5 red angus cows I picked up at a replacement sale- They are 1400+ cows and I guarantee you none of them have ever had a >70lb calf. Perhaps the Canadian ranchers with their "type" of shorthorn and their bigger is better mentality aren't having the dystocia problems, but let me tell you , it IS a problem here. Encouraging AJ to just wipe it under the rug is no solution at all. Go to a local salebarn and talk to some oldtimers- ask them if they ve ever had to do a c section- once maybe twice in their lifetime- now go ask Sullivans Shorthorns how may they do per year. Quit trying to normalize csections on cattle.jaimiediamond said:
justintime
Well-known member
I haven't had much time lately to follow this thread, so I took a few moments to read through it this morning. I may be too much "old school" but I find this thread to have left me scratching my head in disbelief. Here are some of my thoughts for whatever they are worth:
1) firstly, I think c-sections are a last resort... period. They should only be done when the life of the cow and/or calf is clearly in jeopardy.
2) I do not believe any vet, regardless of his/her experience can predict the BW of a calf accurately by doing a rectal examination and feeling the calf's feet late in the pregnancy. If they can do this with excellent accuracy, they are missing a great career as a physic. It is hard to guess a BW of a calf standing in front of you, let alone know what it will weigh when all u can feel are it's feet.
3) I am not a fan of messing with Mother Nature. I do not agree with the practice of induced births, or planned c-sections. Sorry... even if the greatest vet in the world recommended either of these to be done, I would let nature take it's course and see if the heifer could calve. My rule of thumb is if a female is having problems calving, I will put the chains on and hook them on the calf puller. Once the chains are tight I will push down gently on the calf puller, and if I don't see the calf advancing out at that stage, I unhook the puller and head to town for assistance. Sometimes the assistance is not required, but I feel it is better to have it available if needed. It is often better to be safe than sorry.
4) I think many of the calving issues in all breeds are being created by births that have been induced or calved early by any other method. The calf born by c-section, in this thread, weighed 95 lbs. My question would be what would be the actual BW of this calf if he had been allowed to go to term? Would this calf have been born on it's due date or would it have gone 10-12 days overdue. I'm not just picking on this calf, but I am seeing far too many cases like this. And we wonder why calving issues across the entire beef industry are increasing! Add to this, unscrupous breeders who lie about BWs ( which is nothing new, but I wonder how they sleep at night!) I know of a case where a bull being promoted with an 88 lb BW and is advertised as being "safe for heifers" actually was a c-section birth and had a 130 lb BW. IMO, this breeder should be sanctioned by the breed association and prohibited from registering for a signifigant period of time. I know these cases are hard to prove, but the vet who did the c-section was pretty vocal about this being one of the biggest calves he had c-sectioned that year. IMO, there is no part of HELL too hot for breeders like this.
5) this point goes along with the last one, but I firmly believe that gestation length is one of the keys to improving calving ease. How would you have any idea of how long the gestation length is supposed to be if you have an induced birth or planned c-section on a cow or heifer? As I have mentioned on here before, I have seen cows go 18 days over on the due date.( these were verified by DNA) Fortunately, these have been still born unassisted but if I had decided to induce or book an early c section, just what would I use as the actual BW of the calf?
6) I just believe that many of the calving issues we see or hear about are totally man made. This really isn't rocket science and I think the first ingredient to improving calving issues is good old common sense.
I had a calf born this morning from a 2 yr old SULL female from our Bar Code bull, who has been calving very easily for us. This female was 4 days over her due date and I would not have touched her if she had been 15 days over her due date. In this case she calved unassisted with a 90 lb bull calf, which is the heaviest calf I have had from Bar Code so far. This probably makes sense, as there is some bigger BWs in the pedigree and while this calf looks very promising, he will never be promoted as a bull that is safe for use on heifers... at least until he has a proven track record that suggests he is a calving ease sire. There are just too many other choices that are so much better. This was now the 25th heifer to calve and I have 3 left, and all have calved unassisted except for one that had an upside down, backwards, breach calf. Even it was not a difficult birth and the heifer has even cycled again since she calved.
Sorry to be a fly in the ointment, but I just have to say I do not agree with any of this inducing or planned c- section stuff that is going on. I just feel it will only lead to more and more calving issues in all breeds in the future.
1) firstly, I think c-sections are a last resort... period. They should only be done when the life of the cow and/or calf is clearly in jeopardy.
2) I do not believe any vet, regardless of his/her experience can predict the BW of a calf accurately by doing a rectal examination and feeling the calf's feet late in the pregnancy. If they can do this with excellent accuracy, they are missing a great career as a physic. It is hard to guess a BW of a calf standing in front of you, let alone know what it will weigh when all u can feel are it's feet.
3) I am not a fan of messing with Mother Nature. I do not agree with the practice of induced births, or planned c-sections. Sorry... even if the greatest vet in the world recommended either of these to be done, I would let nature take it's course and see if the heifer could calve. My rule of thumb is if a female is having problems calving, I will put the chains on and hook them on the calf puller. Once the chains are tight I will push down gently on the calf puller, and if I don't see the calf advancing out at that stage, I unhook the puller and head to town for assistance. Sometimes the assistance is not required, but I feel it is better to have it available if needed. It is often better to be safe than sorry.
4) I think many of the calving issues in all breeds are being created by births that have been induced or calved early by any other method. The calf born by c-section, in this thread, weighed 95 lbs. My question would be what would be the actual BW of this calf if he had been allowed to go to term? Would this calf have been born on it's due date or would it have gone 10-12 days overdue. I'm not just picking on this calf, but I am seeing far too many cases like this. And we wonder why calving issues across the entire beef industry are increasing! Add to this, unscrupous breeders who lie about BWs ( which is nothing new, but I wonder how they sleep at night!) I know of a case where a bull being promoted with an 88 lb BW and is advertised as being "safe for heifers" actually was a c-section birth and had a 130 lb BW. IMO, this breeder should be sanctioned by the breed association and prohibited from registering for a signifigant period of time. I know these cases are hard to prove, but the vet who did the c-section was pretty vocal about this being one of the biggest calves he had c-sectioned that year. IMO, there is no part of HELL too hot for breeders like this.
5) this point goes along with the last one, but I firmly believe that gestation length is one of the keys to improving calving ease. How would you have any idea of how long the gestation length is supposed to be if you have an induced birth or planned c-section on a cow or heifer? As I have mentioned on here before, I have seen cows go 18 days over on the due date.( these were verified by DNA) Fortunately, these have been still born unassisted but if I had decided to induce or book an early c section, just what would I use as the actual BW of the calf?
6) I just believe that many of the calving issues we see or hear about are totally man made. This really isn't rocket science and I think the first ingredient to improving calving issues is good old common sense.
I had a calf born this morning from a 2 yr old SULL female from our Bar Code bull, who has been calving very easily for us. This female was 4 days over her due date and I would not have touched her if she had been 15 days over her due date. In this case she calved unassisted with a 90 lb bull calf, which is the heaviest calf I have had from Bar Code so far. This probably makes sense, as there is some bigger BWs in the pedigree and while this calf looks very promising, he will never be promoted as a bull that is safe for use on heifers... at least until he has a proven track record that suggests he is a calving ease sire. There are just too many other choices that are so much better. This was now the 25th heifer to calve and I have 3 left, and all have calved unassisted except for one that had an upside down, backwards, breach calf. Even it was not a difficult birth and the heifer has even cycled again since she calved.
Sorry to be a fly in the ointment, but I just have to say I do not agree with any of this inducing or planned c- section stuff that is going on. I just feel it will only lead to more and more calving issues in all breeds in the future.
jaimiediamond
Well-known member
-XBAR- said:
At what point in my post did I try and normalize c sections? In fact I do not find them normal or acceptable at all. As for the Angus point the fact that I calved out 50+ Red Angus females and am now working on a large commercial operation (hundreds) which uses a lot of Shorthorn and Simmental influence my experience is that Red Angus have more calving issues than the Shorthorn influence females. I have not lifted a finger to help the commercial program's females calve. On another note of the 500 heifers purchased as replacements there were 80 Angus heifers and we culled 60 head of the commercial Red Angus heifers due to poor pelvic size. Now perhaps that is just coincidence but I think it has some merit as my purebred experience was not all that fun on the Red Angus program.
aj
Well-known member
You own 50 Red Angus? How do you do all this if you don't own or rent land. You own no equipment. You go on "shopping sprees" buying females just for fun....then you lecture everybody on how the commercial industry works? I guess 22 years of massive livestock experience comes easy for you Jammie. If I remember right you were making mating decesions when you were 5.
RyanChandler
Well-known member
jaimiediamond said:
Jaimie, I didn't mean to make my last comment as part of the paragraph towards you. It was an independent thought of its own. In response, I've found that birthweight and dystocia are positively correlated; reduce bw-reduce dystocia. I've said this many times on here, "I've never pulled a 60lb calf, I've pulled quite a few 90lbers."
aj
Well-known member
How did it get to be a Shorthorn against the Red Angus breed. You set up a strawman......then you knock him down with antedotal evidence.......then anyone that dares to state that the USA Shorthorn showring cattle may have a calving issue is villainized......and hates the breed? Is this a discussion board or a propaganda board?
Doc
Well-known member
aj said:
She didn't say she owned 50 R.A.. She said she" calved out" 50 R.A.. You can calve out & not own or rent any land. I was 20 & foaling 15 broodmares & didn't own or rent any land. I rode horses for a guy & that was part of my job.
aj
Well-known member
OK......well lets try this. She calved out 50 Red Angus......I assume in a linecamp shack in a blizzard......with a crippled horse.....and she was disappointed? Does that mean that she pulled 50 calves or 20 calves or what? And then her boss bought 80 top Red Angus heifers and 75% flunked the pelvic measurements....or her boss raised 80 purebred Red Angus and 75% of these flunked thepelvic measurements? And her boss raises hundreds of cattle....does that mean that he has 101 head of cows or10,000 head of cows.....which i assume she calves out by herself after being stranded in a snowstorm walking up hill both ways in an Alaska linecamp? I'm just saying.
justintime
Well-known member
aj... welcome back! I'm glad to see that you can still twist any statement made by anyone who comments on here. Jaimie's comments are comments I have heard many times in the past few years. My vet says there is a pelvic area problem in some of the Red Angus he has seen in his clinic. He told me he has c- sectioned several that were just far too small to calve a moderate sized cat. I don't know if this is coming from one bloodline or if it is the result of breeders selecting for too many years for small BW. It has been proven in several trails that selection of herd bulls for low BW can lead to females with smaller pelvic measurements. Again, as I have said over and over.... optmum is best... no matter what trait you are talking about.
Jaimie has about as much cow sense and common sense as any person I have ever met. She has more experience in the beef industry than many people 3 times her age. She is also one of the most honest and logical cattle breeders I can think of. She is also a great promoter, but that seems top rub some people the wrong way. Go figure???? Maybe she should keep all the knowledge that she has learned to herself and quit trying to upset a few on here?
Jaimie is working for a large rancher who started using Shorthorn bulls in his herd a few years ago. He also uses Angus and some Simmental bulls. This year, he is not buying Angus bulls because he says the Shorthorns are calving easier and he has more pounds at weaning. I, for one, find this pretty interesting.
Jaimie has about as much cow sense and common sense as any person I have ever met. She has more experience in the beef industry than many people 3 times her age. She is also one of the most honest and logical cattle breeders I can think of. She is also a great promoter, but that seems top rub some people the wrong way. Go figure???? Maybe she should keep all the knowledge that she has learned to herself and quit trying to upset a few on here?
Jaimie is working for a large rancher who started using Shorthorn bulls in his herd a few years ago. He also uses Angus and some Simmental bulls. This year, he is not buying Angus bulls because he says the Shorthorns are calving easier and he has more pounds at weaning. I, for one, find this pretty interesting.
C
cornish
Guest
page 6 is best post I've ever seen JIT type.
On that note: Just this week I was reading about a bull in the Show Circuit. I noticed one bull's comments went towards the effect that his first year's calf crop was limited due to a premature birth. I don't know if that implied the bull was a premature birth-- or the only cow he was mated to had a premature birth. I'm going to assume the bull himself was premature-- and as a result did not produce good enough, or enough semen his first year. I then proceeded to read that he had either an upper 70 or upper 80s pound birth weight.. Since when was that 'premature'-- what would have been his 'real' birth weight? When I get home from this trip I am on-- I'll have to look that bull and his page number up for clarification.
On that note: Just this week I was reading about a bull in the Show Circuit. I noticed one bull's comments went towards the effect that his first year's calf crop was limited due to a premature birth. I don't know if that implied the bull was a premature birth-- or the only cow he was mated to had a premature birth. I'm going to assume the bull himself was premature-- and as a result did not produce good enough, or enough semen his first year. I then proceeded to read that he had either an upper 70 or upper 80s pound birth weight.. Since when was that 'premature'-- what would have been his 'real' birth weight? When I get home from this trip I am on-- I'll have to look that bull and his page number up for clarification.
Doc
Well-known member
feed grass said:
You are talking about Polyocks' bull "Bulletproof". He's a Heatwave out of Dirty Harrys' dam. He is advertised with a 75 lb BW. Being a Heatwave son I could believe he was premature with a 75 lb BW.
Showin a Shorty
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2011
- Messages
- 87
Ok day 2 and momma and baby are doing well. Sorry I have not been able to post pics I broke my laptop screen yesterday and have to use my phone.
OH Breeder
Well-known member
Showin a Shorty said:
YEAH! as far left as this post has been DRIVEN, I am happy you have a healthy live momma and baby. (thumbsup)
Showin a Shorty
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2011
- Messages
- 87
OH Breeder said:
Thanks! As of now we are also very happy with the outcome. I kinda gave up on the thread as far as advice goes, just wanted to update everyone that was concerned. At the end of the day I care more about having a heathy momma and baby than I do about the numbers that will factor into it down the road. He will more than likely make a steer anyway. I also was fairly taken back by the posts about the animals " fending" for themselves. This to me is absolutely ridiculous, when we take the into our care it is our responsibility to take care of them. End of story, make up any excuse you would like but in the end that's all there really is to it. Thanks again for the advise and support.
OH Breeder
Well-known member
Dusty said:
GOOD to see you posting again Dusty!
aj
Well-known member
I'll try one more time JIT. Could you guys cut the ANTEDOTAL evidence. Show me some numbers. Wow.......your vet said "some......Red Angus......have a pelvic measure problem". How prophetic......then you throw in a paragraph of personal notes notes knocking down a straw man. Some Angus have pelvic problems. Some Simmental have pelvic problems. Some Gelbvieh have problems. Some Shorthorn have pelic measurement problems. Same ole predictaable arguement. Set up a straw man........knock him down with personal comments. No numbers......no evidence.....just philosophy.......just well harumppph! You must hate the breed. Avoid the truth....change the subject.......rationalize........create a enemy breed.......attack attack attack.......change the subject.......muddy the water......write a 3 page speech that no one reads till the end........I'm just saying. I heard an old man once say"Don't take advice from someone that doesn't pay property taxes......a Hoytism I guess.
aj
Well-known member
Showing a Shorty.......I'm glad to hear everything came out alright. You are the next generation of Shorthorn breeder. Keep up the good work.
Doc
Well-known member
aj said:
Then I feel sorry for that man if he lived by that. There is a lot of people out there that choose to rent instead of own, that I have learned from.
