Shorthorn X Red Angus heifers

[aj]

You would have to go to a director or ceo or one the AAA employees of that time to get the specifics of the deal. Cause it ain't published much if at all.

 

[RyanChandler]

JTM that's the point angus do not need to crossbreed to make them better, other breeds crossbreed to make there breed better.

That's fine Judge if that is your opinion. I have a different one. I'm assuming you are a purebred Angus commercial cow/calf operator and you have some good performing Angus cattle. That's good for you. IMO you could gain more pounds and improve other traits by starting a crossbreeding program. You could just experiment a little with a few cows. That would be my suggestion because of the scientifically proven results of heterosis.

The superior performance of the F1 female is well documented. It's accepted that the F1 female is, across the board, performs 20% better than either of her purebred parents.  Implicit in Judge's opinion is that the Angus cattle he is referring to outperform the next purebred substitute by at least 20%.  We all know this is just a blatant lie.  Perhaps he could try to save face and inform us all specifically what line of Angus this is and what breeder is breeding them.  I will bet his statements are unfounded and there isn't one ounce of verifiable truth behind his claims. 

 

[Judge]

Let's just talk about purebreds, the angus far superior to the purebred horns period. You can dress it up however you wish F1 cattle blah blah blah. Your so called shorthorns are so inconsistent it's brutal, long legged, hard doing, pencil gutted, the have a head on them like a wood pecker., and you think they can put perform the angus that's a joke. And the reason you gotta use this cross bred bs is because you know the breed can't stand against the angus breed. Now iam not saying there isn't the odd good shorthorn around but they are less common than an angus.you guys all crow about how the angus had this and that in them shorthorns were a dual purpose bred that even today some of those lines still carry it. We can go on and on for days back and forth but let's just let the breed do the talking. That is if you the horns don't become extinct.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

I was told that Ankony or a herd like that......owned by an oil company.......in the the late 80's or nineties......threatened to sue the American Angus Assc off the face of the earth if their frame score 9 cattle were blood typed. They were not blood typed for foreign blood......period. Now todays popular Angus may not have these chianina bllodlines in them but it and Holstein were floating all around the their gene pool at one time./// You are right and I still see remnents of those dual looking Angus-I remember seeing Grubbs Mckenzie at NorthAmerican Breeders-he was a 3000 pound cripple dragging his backlegs.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Back to an earlier response-I was driving through Iowa and saw some big feedlots full of Holstiens-and asked why there were so many? The genetic base of the breed is so limited that they are the most consistent cattle,and they finish well.Since Angus clearly go back to Friesens, MAYBE THE FRIESENS x are what made certified angus beef-which usually isnt Angus at all. The MARC study was an incredibly long drawn out and impartial test for years.Shorthorns and F1s pretty well topped that deal. Everybody was there-maybe even Zebus. So you can generalize all you want and quote cliches printed in your breed magazine,but alot of people dont agree with that through experience.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

The Certofied Angus Beef thing is a whole bunch of crap. I'll take my home raised Holstein steak and throw it next to ANY beef breeds steak and the Holstein will taste better every time. Guarantee it.I agree-and they probably end up CERTIFIED ANGUS BEEF O0

 

[RankeCattleCo]

Back to an earlier response-I was driving through Iowa and saw some big feedlots full of Holstiens-and asked why there were so many? The genetic base of the breed is so limited that theyre the most consistent cattle,and they finish well.Since Angus clearly go back to Friesens, MAYBE THE FRIESENS x are what made certified angus beef-which usually isnt Angus at all. The MARC study was an incredibly long drawn out and impartial test for years.Shorthorns and F1s pretty well topped that deal. Everybody was there-maybe even Zebus. So you can generalize all you want and quote cliches printed in your breed magazine,but alot of people dont agree with that through experience.

With all due respect to the breeders on here of their specific needs, Holstein beef will taste better than any other commercial beef, period. ( W/o getting into specialty breeds; Galloway, Wagyu, etc.)  Like stated above, the gene pool is very limited and that makes the breed so consistent across the board- milk, calf size, etc.- Not just beef finishing.

All breeds have their place. Personally I believe that while it is important to keep a PB registry, the best cows will obviously be F1's and crossbreds. No PB cow will out perform a Meyer/Angus cross (just an example). I don't care what the PB genetics are like. It just won't work. Breeds that are establishing % registries are really helping themselves right now.

 

[RyanChandler]

Let's just talk about purebreds, the angus far superior to the purebred horns period. You can dress it up however you wish F1 cattle blah blah blah. Your so called shorthorns are so inconsistent it's brutal, long legged, hard doing, pencil gutted, the have a head on them like a wood pecker., and you think they can put perform the angus that's a joke. And the reason you gotta use this cross bred bs is because you know the breed can't stand against the angus breed. Now iam not saying there isn't the odd good shorthorn around but they are less common than an angus.you guys all crow about how the angus had this and that in them shorthorns were a dual purpose bred that even today some of those lines still carry it. We can go on and on for days back and forth but let's just let the breed do the talking. That is if you the horns don't become extinct.

Why would we just talk about purebreds when the most efficient production model requires the use of F1 females?  Perhaps the angus are superior.  But unless by 'far superior' you specifically mean >20% better, than the F1 Angus x Shorthorn female is still superior to your straight Angus female.  And until the day comes when straight Angus are 20% better, the incorporation of another breed to produce the F1 will still be most efficient. 

Your feeble attempt at describing the entire shorthorn breed just shows your ignorance.  You'd be hard pressed to find one animal on my place that could even remotely be identified by the poor descriptors you chose to use. 

 

[Judge]

How come all these great breeds everyone mentions have angus in them? Like I said shorthorns were a dual purpose breed so you can't use that because shorthorns have tons of milking blood in them. If the shorthorns are such a great breed why so much inconsistency? They have so many different breeds in them it's sad.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Let's just talk about purebreds, the angus far superior to the purebred horns period. You can dress it up however you wish F1 cattle blah blah blah. Your so called shorthorns are so inconsistent it's brutal, long legged, hard doing, pencil gutted, the have a head on them like a wood pecker., and you think they can put perform the angus that's a joke. And the reason you gotta use this cross bred bs is because you know the breed can't stand against the angus breed. Now iam not saying there isn't the odd good shorthorn around but they are less common than an angus.you guys all crow about how the angus had this and that in them shorthorns were a dual purpose bred that even today some of those lines still carry it. We can go on and on for days back and forth but let's just let the breed do the talking. That is if you the horns don't become extinct.

Why would we just talk about purebreds when the most efficient production model requires the use of F1 females?  Perhaps the angus are superior.  But unless by 'far superior' you specifically mean >20% better, than the F1 Angus x Shorthorn female is still superior to your straight Angus female.  And until the day comes when straight Angus are 20% better, the incorporation of another breed to produce the F1 will still be most efficient. 

Your feeble attempt at describing the entire shorthorn breed just shows your ignorance.  You'd be hard pressed to find one animal on my place that could even remotely be identified by the poor descriptors you chose to use. ///// The 30 or so examples pictured at the beginning of this thread along with thier sire pretty well demonstrate these statements beyond a shadow :and based upon this evidence I REST MY CASE JUDGE LOL (lol) O0

 

[RyanChandler]

How come all these great breeds everyone mentions have angus in them? Like I said shorthorns were a dual purpose breed so you can't use that because shorthorns have tons of milking blood in them. If the shorthorns are such a great breed why so much inconsistency? They have so many different breeds in them it's sad.

There is no more Angus in my cattle than there is shorthorn in yours. 

"Like I said, shorthorns were a dual purpose breed so you can't use that because shorthorns have tons of milking blood in them"

I have no idea what you're even trying to suggest here.  This type of phrase structure is nothing more than data as we can't conclude anything from it.  Information is that which is useful.


Again, who is this "they" you keep referring to?  If you had specified a particular line and then referred to 'them' as 'they' then perhaps your position would hold some relevancy here but since you didn't... you're words hold no tangible value. You continually fail to associate them with any cattle in particular.

There is much inconsistency in some lines of the breed because of the 'quick fix' clubby guys breeding w/ no long term goal in sight.  Of course when an animal's pedigree is composed of outcross x outcross x outcross breeding for generations, consistency is thrown out the window.  This is a reflection of the type of individuals who were entrusted with those particular lines of the breed, not a reflection of the intrinsic value of the breed as a whole.  Point blame at the individual breeders who are responsible for breeding that trash and quit blaming the breed as a whole.  Your generalizations are reckless.

 

[Mill Iron A]

I think what Judge is trying to say is because Angus have the most numbers and other breeds are incorporating them that that is proof that Angus is superior.  I see what he is saying because what is right is always popular and it's best not to think for yourself. Good advice Judge.

 

[kiblercattle]

I personally believe why the angus breed is more consistent than shorthorns is the association has made them the most popular breed in the world. The sheer number of cattle in the angus breed helps their consistency and pretty much everyone in the angus breed is heading down the same road. Shorthorns have two groups the largest is the show cattle which is the largest segment of the breed and IMO not beef production oriented.  Then you have breeders like saskvalley muridale and y lazy y breeding entirely different cattle if you had more people on board with these breeders shorthorns would have a chance to compete. The ASA needs to get it together and promote the commercially orientated side more. I hope that montie soules will help get it together.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

I personally believe why the angus breed is more consistent than shorthorns is the association has made them the most popular breed in the world. The sheer number of cattle in the angus breed helps their consistency and pretty much everyone in the angus breed is heading down the same road. Shorthorns have two groups the largest is the show cattle which is the largest segment of the breed and IMO not beef production oriented.  Then you have breeders like saskvalley muridale and y lazy y breeding entirely different cattle if you had more people on board with these breeders shorthorns would have a chance to compete. The ASA needs to get it together and promote the commercially orientated side more. I hope that montie soules will help get it together./// I agree and when you see theLWaukaru, Jungels, Loving, Keith Lauer, and that group from minn. selling some bulls and becoming popular in the non-show arena-the change is underway:Sullivan is also in the deal more or less by default-due to the qulity of his females-just need a couple generations of the Red Reward KL blood and theyll still be cool enuff to show some. But Angus by numbers are not the most "populace" breed in the world just in the US and Canada-Shorthorns have the most numbers worldwide-But I think the Canadian cattle people as whole arent led around by thier nose by the so-called color superiority like here,thus the guys using Shorthorns, Herefords, Flecks ,Charolais etc,are doing so bacause they add value, not just color. The phenoypes up there seem to be alot similar than down here also. The Canadian Angus Ive seen by pictures are alot stouter,and more rugged than the ones I see down here-ditto for alot of the others-including some of the Shorts.  O0

 

[Judge]

Thank you, that is wha iam basically trying to say, but the only people who won't recognize that is the people bashing the angus breed saying they go back to Holstein, and not realizing that THEY (for you xbar) shorthorns were a dual purpose breed. Shorthorns can make good show cattle but 90 percent unless they are crossed ont make comercal cattle.

 

[Judge]

Now tha being said I think I have a pretty good idea when I used to have shorthorns and  than you haul them to market and they are at least 100 pounds lighter than the angus and the feedlot guys pay you 750 compared to angus selling for 1300 live weight

 

[mark tenenbaum]

I think what Judge is trying to say is because Angus have the most numbers and other breeds are incorporating them that that is proof that Angus is superior.  I see what he is saying because what is right is always popular and it's best not to think for yourself. Good advice Judge.//// <party> <party> (clapping) (lol) O0

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

You a beating man AJ cause I assure you are way off on the age Ive forgot more than you'll ever know. What dose my identity have to do with anything? I get you like to argue a few points which is good. I'm sure up to the challenge of teaching you a few things about the cattle industry, my identity has to remain a secret due to the large quantity of business I do, but I can tell you my pockets and smarts go way beyond you

I don't care how good your cattle are. With a pompous ass attitude like yours, I wouldn't buy a thing from you. I know angus and shorthorn equally well. Angus is too confused to continue on top. The time is coming. You'd think if angus had it all figured out the semen companies pushing them wouldn't have to change 3/4 of their lineups every year because the previous years breed changer was a dud.

Both breeds have many positive traits. The trick is lining up genetics that compliment one another. Not fire and ice.


Anybody in the cattle biz who says they got it all figured out is full of themselves.

 

[JTM]

I personally believe why the angus breed is more consistent than shorthorns is the association has made them the most popular breed in the world. The sheer number of cattle in the angus breed helps their consistency and pretty much everyone in the angus breed is heading down the same road. Shorthorns have two groups the largest is the show cattle which is the largest segment of the breed and IMO not beef production oriented.  Then you have breeders like saskvalley muridale and y lazy y breeding entirely different cattle if you had more people on board with these breeders shorthorns would have a chance to compete. The ASA needs to get it together and promote the commercially orientated side more. I hope that montie soules will help get it together.

Right on Kiblercattle, I agree with this statement. I personally can't speak to the consistency of the Angus breed because of my lack of experience but the road to the top is made pretty clear hear for Shorthorns... Angus breeders that believe the way that Judge believes are who we need to target as our customers. These breeders represent the most potential for Shorthorn bull semen sales and cow herd improvement across the continent. We need to convince them to shift their train of thought and this can only be done by giving them evidence after evidence after evidence with consistency. The ASA needs to get on this ship and set sail!!!

 

[Judge]

Jm what do you not get I said I used to have horns, I said there were a few good ones there is no clear path, feedlots do not what the breed period. Your pretty confident in your breed post some mature pics of that bull you have been promoting, along with his dam