Shorthorn X Red Angus heifers

[kiblercattle]

Judge I do not believe this to be true about shorthorns not being wanted. I do believe I read some where in the last couple years that cargill paid the highest premiums ever for a set of shorthorn steers. If you can't find a shorthorns out there that will not improve the beef industry you aren't looking very hard. This isn't 20 years ago every breed has come so far and they all have something good to offer the beef industry.

 

[kiblercattle]

Do a search on hillside leader, jsf navigator, muridale buster 14k and tell me bulls like these are useless.

 

[RyanChandler]

I don't need the association to declare a 'clear path'  for me to establish one within my herd.

F1 shorthorn x brangus

 

[Judge]

You guys are all missing the point, I never said there were no good shorthorns cause there are a few most of the western breeding is more powerful different bred of cattle, there is so much variation in the breed is what the problem is. Comercial producers want to see consistencey which the breed dose not have. That is why angus are as popular as they are as a purebred they can compete with anything and when they are crossed the pass on traits t other breeds which makes the angus superior. I took the time to call around to 10 feedlots in Canada, they ll said except 1 they would not buy straight shorthorn. They said 75 percent of the animals in there were black hides, and when sold to the consumer it was by far easier to sell if they were angus or angus cross. Yes I realize there has been good marketing done to this day, but let's face it the angus also have the goods.

 

[librarian]

Backing up a little about whether or not Shorthorns were involved in the early Aberdeen Angus improvement.
The grandfather of almost every registered Angus is a bull named Grey Breasted Jock, the sire of Old Jock.
I have often thought about how Grey Breasted Jock came by his distinctive coloring.
Here is what Wikipedia has to say:
For some time before the 1800s, the hornless cattle in Aberdeenshire and Angus were called Angus doddies. Hugh Watson can be considered the founder of the breed; he was instrumental in selecting the best black, polled animals for his herd. His favorite bull was Old Jock, which was born 1842 and sired by Grey-Breasted Jock. Grey-Breasted Jock was given the number "1" in the Scottish Herd Book when it was founded.
And from AAA
Grey Breasted Jock
Reg: AAA 113    Bull
Birth Date: 01/01/1840

 

[ty378]

At one time everything was crossed but that was a long time ago and science than the angus breed has done a lot of stuff to ensure the breed is pure, now Im sure guys like AJ are going to tell you that is not true but with all the genetic enhancements and not sure about the US but in Canada we gotta DNA all bulls that will see calves, and in the next year or 2 same goes with the females I believe. I really believe that the shorthorns could make a good breed if they started to cull harder, close there herd book and not allowing upgrading. To me there are to many different types of shorthorns, and I think the big key for the shorthorns will be getting cattle to have that big belly and softness to them. And I don't think it's right to say the shorthorns made the angus or the association made the angus, it was a combination of good cattle, lots of culling, promotion, and they have a product that is IMO ahead of a lot of breeds. They also now have such a huge gene pool for sires they can use that the genetic potential is endless.

 

[RyanChandler]

Id agree with all of that.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Backing up a little about whether or not Shorthorns were involved in the early Aberdeen Angus improvement.
The grandfather of almost every registered Angus is a bull named Grey Breasted Jock, the sire of Old Jock.
I have often thought about how Grey Breasted Jock came by his distinctive coloring.
Here is what Wikipedia has to say:
For some time before the 1800s, the hornless cattle in Aberdeenshire and Angus were called Angus doddies. Hugh Watson can be considered the founder of the breed; he was instrumental in selecting the best black, polled animals for his herd. His favorite bull was Old Jock, which was born 1842 and sired by Grey-Breasted Jock. Grey-Breasted Jock was given the number "1" in the Scottish Herd Book when it was founded./// The only thing I know-other than old history and very old Scottish breeders I got to spaeak to in rhe 60s-was a statement that there is Shorthorn DNA in every Angus-They came out of those cattle along time ago-and I saw traces of black on the Linebred Deerpark and Culhane cattle in 1990 when I went around Ireland some.Actually-the wild white cattle in England that escaped from the Romans were probably chis-and you could go to any number of fairs a few years ago and see wild white cattle escaping or acting up (lol) O0
And from AAA
Grey Breasted Jock
Reg: AAA 113    Bull
Birth Date: 01/01/1840

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

So judge, you're saying there isn't too much variation in the angus breed? This is the problem with shorthorns?

Come on man.

 

[librarian]

He ain't gonna give up and he's right about some things.

 

[justintime]

I have sat on the sidelines here watching this debate and I am now jumping in here.

Firstly, coyote ... you have an excellent set of F1 heifers. I like your idea of putting a Charolais bull on them once they have had their first calves. Those tan calves of both sexes are flat good. When we ran our purebred Charolais herd along with our purebred Shorthorn herd, we used to breed all our Charolais heifers to a Shorthorn bull and we used to put some of the bottom end Shorthorn cows with our Charolais herd sire. We mainly did this to make our numbers fit our pastures better, but the results were excellent. The tan F1 calves had the cattle buyers actually looking like they cared when these calves were selling, and we oftentimes topped the market. The FI Char X Shorthorn heifers were retained and sold as bred heifers. We had standing orders for them from 3 commercial cattle operations and they would pay a premium of $250- 300 more for them. When one of these herds was dispersed, there were more than 50 of these F1 females from our herd in the sale, and many of them were amongst the top sellers. The only other cross I would think could really work on these females is a very good horned Hereford bull. I bet I get inquiries for over 300 Hereford X Shorthorn replacement heifers every year. Two years ago an outfit in Alberta phoned and wanted 300 F1 Hereford X Shorthorn heifers themselves. I simply could not find them. I just can't understand why more people aren't raising these replacements.

Secondly, I was almost crawling out of my skin, at some of judge's comments. It is a known historic fact that in the development years of the Angus breed in the UK, that Shorthorn blood was used. If you don't believe this, read any historical book on this. Better yet, talk with Scottish cattle breeders. They openly accept this fact. 
I don't think there is any breed who can claim to have total purity. In the 70s the Angus breed was as bad as any out there. I remember talking to a leading US Angus breeder in the early 70s and he asked me if I knew where he could find semen from a Milking Shorthorn bull named McKee's Matchless Dairyman. He said he liked to use this bull because the calves were solid black and also very good, but he was having trouble finding semen anymore. If you don't believe that some Chi blood entered the gene pool in that same era, you must be living under a rock. When you look at the changes in type in many breeds over a few decades, it is very obvious to me. You do not get this type of change when you breed " like to like". I also remember several years ago that a neighbor bred most of his purebred Angus herd to a recent Denver Champion Angus bull. He asked me to come over and see his calves the next spring, and when I saw them, I was really impressed with the 4 calves out about 20 by this sire, that had large white stars on their heads. Holstein is my guess!  This has also happened in the Shorthorn breed, but I maintain the Shorthorn breed had some diverse branches within the breed, which they could access as well to seek change. I do not think a person could find a so called purebred in any breed that has the same genetic composition as the original cattle in the breed. I found it interesting that when I visited with Donald McGillvary who owned the famous Calrossie herd in Scotland, he said that there were lots of " questionable genetics" used in the 50s, in the Shorthorn breed. No breed is exempt. No breed can claim total purity. IMO, we have to accept good cattle of any breed for their own merit and accept the fact that there are superb cattle in every breed. No breed has a corner on quality. Some breeds have done a much superior job of marketing, and the Angus breed probably as done the most impressive job of this in history.
When I was a kid, we had a neighbor who had a wonderful herd of Angus cows. This family was very close friends with my parents so we were oftentimes over there and I can still remember some of the amazing Angus cows they had. They oftentimes took Angus bulls to Regina Bull Sale, and I can always remember my dad saying that he would like to have 20 of our neighbors best black cows, but he did not think he could stand the constant disappointment at sale time. In those days, Angus had to poorest sale averages at almost all bull sales, and many good Angus bulls did not get a bid. I have to give the Angus breed full marks for the job they have done. It is second to none and the Angus ship probably will never sink!
I also was left scratching my head at judges comment regarding feedlots don't buy purebred Shorthorns. I used to run a feedlot and I know many feedlot operators who really like to feed Shorthorn calves. I think in Canada, the Shorthorn breed, gained incredible change in attitude, when a pen of 110 purebred Shorthorn steers received the highest premium ever given by Cargill  based on carcass quality. This set of steers were fed in a 30,000 head lot and they also had the best feed efficiency in that set of cattle being fed at the same time. These Shorthorn steers all came from the same herd, entered the feedlot the same day and all left the same day. This feedlot has since expanded and they are one of the biggest lots in Western Canada. They love to buy Shorthorns providing they can get enough similar cattle to fill their pens.  I used to be a cattle buyer, when we were running our feedlot, and I still keep in contact with some other buyers, and they ask me often about Shorthorn calves to buy. Personally, I don't sell many steers anymore, except the bottom end, but our pure Shorthorn steers usually bring excellent prices.

I have rambled on here long enough but I could go on and on. I will just say, no breed is perfect. No breed has all the best quality. I can find lots and lots of Angus cattle today that are quite frankly, p**s poor. But the good ones are really good. Just like in any other breed.
One more thing... congrats to coyote and his family for getting this set of super replacements. Regardless whether they decide to keep them or sell them, I am betting they will benefit from owning them.

 

[aj]

I think its interesting that Tim Oldhe imported Ildeno(white chianina bull) way back when......sold the hellout of semen. Now hes got THE herd of moderate frame y4 and 5 Angus cattle. I don't think he ever put chi in  his cattle but he did have the Angus 2 line which openly used Holstein type influence. The chi blood in the Angus breed has been diluted in the last 25 years.....however there are still some big Angus cows around. Olhde also raised jpj I guess. I would think it would be fascinating to sit down and listen to him sometime.

 

[justintime]

It seems to me, that there was more " foreign " blood added to breeds in the past. All they had to check genetic heritage until a few years ago, was blood typing, and that was not real accurate. I remember a long visit I had with the head of the blood typed unit at Ohio State University, at the Graham Land & Livestock dispersal in 1973. He told me there were 7 full blood Maine Anjou bulls at that time, that blood typed as being purebred Shorthorn genetics. He also said that some of the full blood Maines actually had blood types that more closely matched the typical Shorthorn blood types than some current Shorthorn genetics being used. One thing I found interesting was he also said that all the Irish Shorthorns his lab had tested had blood types that did not match any Shorthorn blood types they had ever seen, and that they were constantly adding new blood types as being typical for the Shorthorn breed, when they tested Irish Shorthorns. I remember him also saying that there were lots of blood typing irregularities showing up in most breeds at that time.
DNA testing has solved many of these problems. DNA testing still has some problems. I have had a few situations where I have purchased embryos in the US and have had problems getting them to pass parentage testing here in Canada. Here in Canada, we require all ET calves to be DNA parentage tested. Last fall, I had 3 ET calves from US embryos that did not match the DNA profiles of the sire and dam. After a second test, they still did not match. Eventually, I had tried having semen from the sire mailed from the US to the lab here, and having them do a DNA profile on it. Once this was done the calves matched to their sire.  I always thought a DNA profile was the same wherever it was done, but obviously it is not. I am thinking different labs or countries are using different markers in their profiles.

It also seems to me, that there are more people trying to cheat by adding outside genetics when there is a major swing in industry demands, and usually when the swing is to bigger framed cattle.

 

[RyanChandler]

One thing I found interesting was he also said that all the Irish Shorthorns his lab had tested had blood types that did not match any Shorthorn blood types they had ever seen, and that they were constantly adding new blood types as being typical for the Shorthorn breed, when they tested Irish Shorthorns.

Yet we still have people trying to promote asterisk free shorthorns as somehow the more 'pure' option or as 100% purebreds.  Nothing but a marketing SCAM.  If asterisks are going to continue to be used to supposedly denote impurity, the ASA and the Canadian Assoc. need to go through the registry and put an asterisk on every single animal that goes back to the Irish and/or Illawarra cattle.  Or just close the herd book and drop the asterisks all together.  I'd support either option but something needs to be done as the current designation is both deceitful and fraudulent.

 

[justintime]

One thing I found interesting was he also said that all the Irish Shorthorns his lab had tested had blood types that did not match any Shorthorn blood types they had ever seen, and that they were constantly adding new blood types as being typical for the Shorthorn breed, when they tested Irish Shorthorns.

Yet we still have people trying to promote asterisk free shorthorns as somehow the more 'pure' option or as 100% purebreds.  Nothing but a marketing SCAM.  If asterisks are going to continue to be used to supposedly denote impurity, the ASA and the Canadian Assoc. need to go through the registry and put an asterisk on every single animal that goes back to the Irish and/or Illawarra cattle.  Or just close the herd book and drop the asterisks all together.  I'd support either option but something needs to be done as the current designation is both deceitful and fraudulent.

xbar... thank you ! thank you ! thank you! I have finally found someone who agrees with my position on this. I am sure there are lots of others as well, but not many come out and ' call a spade a spade". I  have  posted my opinion on this topic on SP before but I will try to give the Coles version of it. I was involved in bringing some of the first Irish Shorthorns to North America. We were the first to bring them to Canada, and the second from North America to import them. One of my partners found them while visiting Ireland and found out while he was there, that some had already been shipped to the US. At this time, these cattle had no registration status  anywhere. The Irish were just approving some of the cattle to be brought back into their herd books and I have heard many stories about how corrupt this system was.
We decided to import these cattle despite they had no registration status, and if was after they arrived here, that we tried to get them put into the appendix herd book in Canada. When we imported these cattle, we had to accept the fact that they probably would have no registerable status. We brought them in, because we felt they offered some excellent traits that were not available in the breed at the time, and we felt we would use them to try to develop some unregistered bulls that would be more accepted by commercial producers. Our proposal to put these Irish imports into the appendix herd book  was approved at our annual meeting. I also find it interesting that as soon as had semen for sale, we sold enough semen from Irish Mist, to two breeders who today still insist that their herds consist of purebred Shorthorn lines, to pay for all the costs of purchasing and importing this bull. Once these breeders had calves on the ground, they were involved in a motion that would put the Irish cattle into the closed herd book here in Canada. My partners and I were totally against this happening, as we knew full well, that these cattle were appendix at best. ( we got different pedigrees for the same animal from various Irish breeders) and we also know that several herd sires ( including the sire of Deerpark Improver) were bulls purchased from auction barns. We flew to the Canadian annual meeting in Vancouver and tried our best to keep this from happening, but when the vote was cast, we were the only 3 votes against putting them into the closed herd book. It was after this meeting, that I made a decision that I would use the best Shorthorn genetics I could find, regardless of the * on the pedigree or not.
The Irish deal is only one of the things that has continued to prove to me that many cattle who have an * on their pedigree are as pure as many in the closed herdbooks. I have seen many cattle that have been slid into the closed herd book over the years. Just a few months ago, I was researching a popular bull here in Canada, and as I went back into his pedigree, I found a half blood Simmental female that I had purchased in the early 70s from Ontario. This happened when they allowed appendix females enter the closed herd book for a few years, then changed their minds and reversed their decision again. They are so many cases of this, I don't understand why more breeders can't see what has been happening. I really truly believe that this issue has to be addressed in both Canada and the US. I see movement in the US on cleaning up the appendix issue. Australia has dealt with this, as have most other herd books around the world. Yet we have lots and lots of breeders who are absolutely convinced that they only raised purebred Shorthorns. I have yet to find an animal in most of these herds that I can't question some of their heritage. We really need to learn from our mistakes, and just accept good cattle as being good cattle. The breed and most everyone's blood pressure will benefit from it!

 

[r.n.reed]

The heifers appear to be a little on the controversial side but I like them Coyote.
I could go for either of the options put forth by XBAR,probably lean towards putting an asterisk on the Irish,Illawara etc.

 

[justintime]

Fortunately, for coyote, and unfortunately for the rest of us, we may have to wait a few days for coyote to respond in this thread. I know Joni and him are basking in the Mexican sun at the present time. I saw a post of FB this morning from Joni ( Mrs coyote) asking for people to post some information on the Winter Olympics as they were having trouble finding out information in Mexico. ( I guess Mexicans don't really care about Winter Olympics seeing they don't have winter!). I'm sure they will be back soon and I really hope their sun burnt bodies heal fast ( but not real fast!!  haha!)
Some day we should plan a SP holiday to some Mexican sun spot. We could all sit around the floating bar in the pool and discuss some of these topics!

 

[coyote]

Is there only mermaids ? You never hear of mermens. If there are only mermaids how do they reproduce? ( tequila influenced question)

 

[Gargan]

If there are only mermaids how do they reproduce? ( tequila influenced question)

Lonely gringos who had to much tequila and passed out on the beach!!  (lol). Enjoy your vacation!!

 

[justintime]

Is there only mermaids ? You never hear of mermens. If there are only mermaids how do they reproduce? ( tequila influenced question)

I've heard of Ethel Mermen. Any relation?