Shorty Folks

[RyanChandler]

Pure would refer to the breed whereas closed would pertain to individuals within the breed. 

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

Well, again we turn to same question.

Will try to be short on my points due my limited english skills.

First point is that I wish that all herd books keep the asterisk or other symbols marking upgrade animals on all following generations. With this will to be easy to track it. For many times saw discussions regarding TH and PHA origin, so, keeping these marks on pedigrees we will to be able to realize from where these and another genetics problems probably came.

Other point, I not use asterisk cattle, is my choice. But I have more confidence on asterisk cattle regarding your honesty than on asterisk free cattle. Why? Simple, people that keep asterisk status until now are showing exactly what it are, at point that, some asterisk free cattle at some point received some “extra infusions” and not were informed it...so...I know accurately that asterisk are what they are! See HS Instant Enticer case, asterisk free, but as extensivelly discuss here, He isn’t not pure.

Regarding JIT post, agree in many points. Not agree that pure cattle was gone, with internet we are finding some old and small herds that keep these animals. These herds work at local market, without show objective, fashionable bloodlines, marketable bulls without real function or big sales that are more a show party than a sale. Maybe there we will find the real pure Shorthorn preserved.

The point is HOW check pedigrees veracity…DNA phylogentic analyses is the answer. This tool showed a strong improvement on simple analyses on last years. Today, cite results got 10 years ago to discuss, is off question for me. Is the same that compare the cell phones of 10 years ago and the today phones…

Also, regarding UK Society, well I have good friends there, Society Secretary is a person that I like much, but Society philosophy is not a perfect example for the reason to the decline of breed and following open book for Maines. UK had an continental invasion, all british breeds have done an option….to change or to extinction. They choose change, great job. But again, times are changing and not sure that actual cattle size there will remain for so many time.

Asterisk cattle or not, is a matter hard to get an end. Personally think that never will get. As we lost 40 years for think to make decent rules for this matter. Well explained about Irish blood without trustworthy ancestors, also regarding Illawarras and worst, regarding to the fake pedigrees that are impossible to detect if some one don’t know exactly animals that are fakes, like Enticer or the ½ simmental original line (please on next citation to be clear regarding bulls or animals you are talking – secrets not help much other fellows).

Is clear to all that a breed association is a political organization, it was also discussed here, but to me, if we all Shorthorn breeders wish a clean and honesty breed, we need to change these animals status. Putting asterisk in all fakes and as well as yours progeny. Is an extreme decision, Yes, but without extreme decisions all things will run as now and, will to be is a waste of time continue to discuss this topic.

Also agree that we need raise cattle that we wish and will pay our bills, but free choice is a good option and for this we must to be clear about what we are keeping on our fields and expending our Money. If keep a pure Shorthorn is hard, expensive to get embryos, semen, animals...OK, I’m paying for this, is my choice. In other hand I can run for easier road where all other are running...life choices are the life salt!

Thanks Google!!  (clapping)

 

[r.n.reed]

This is a good discussion and there have been many good points made.I think the only problem that may arise from the '' native'' programs would be that at some point purity may become the sole factor in making breeding decisions setting aside the other profit traits,a Bates round 2.
Speaking of the Haumont cattle XBAR,here is a 2 yr.old 108 son out of a Haumont Cherry Blossom in our reserve pen.

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

Reed, I think that Native or asterisk must be select with criteria, real and productive. Personaly wish not see Natives as pets upper cared neither asterisks as crossed mongrels.

A breeder with goals will work your select line with criteria to produce the better possible on your conditions for your market.

Already read here that clubies breeders are 800 kg pets owners. This is an example that we cann't follow. By other hand we will to be equall to this few guys.

 

[r.n.reed]

I agree totally with you Cabanha Santa Isabel and I am sure that many in the program have the same principles.Just saying that based on breed history and human nature the 2nd or 3rd guy down the line may not be so principled.

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

Thanks Reed.

Personally I'm looking for some this "pure genetics", got some embryos and semen from UK, but after realize the bussiness found some holes on my donors pedigrees, but I kept my world and kept the ET program as well. But yet am looking for this kinf genetics, now with a little bit more experience, hope not turn on previous errors.

I'm looking for try get some embryos and semen from Native program in US, but wish have 100% sure that the animals are really pure, but not only based on pedigrees that are fallible. Need a DNA accurate data for select and expend money on a new program.

 

[RyanChandler]

JIT says none exist.  What gives? 

 

[r.n.reed]

Can't say why JIT has not spoken to the Haumont herd or Albaughs as well.Maybe he is down there buying some right now. ;D

 

[RyanChandler]

Can't say why JIT has not spoken to the Haumont herd or Albaughs as well.Maybe he is down there buying some right now. ;D

Haha maybe so.  Ill keep asking.  I do find it odd that both those places refer to their cattle as dual purpose milking shorthorn. Whether or not that has anything to do with it I don't know.  Phenotypically, cattle from both those places appear more dairy-like in their hip structure/ rear legs.

That bulls a chunk, Gary. If he was there last yr I'm sure I have pics of him.  Is his dam a roan cow?

 

[r.n.reed]

Can't say why JIT has not spoken to the Haumont herd or Albaughs as well.Maybe he is down there buying some right now. ;D

The Haumont herd is really a time capsule and is basicly bred the same way as the foundation of the Hultines,Thiemans and Teegardens etc.They never added the pony scotch lines nor the various fixes introduced later.Ive attached a picture of a Haumont cow.
The bull was there at Shorthorn u.His dam was a red cow real well balanced moderate framed.

 

[oakview]

I think the guys up in Minnesota (Lovaas, Hoffrage) are breeding some of the native cattle and are using Haumont bred females as their base.  I would assume JIT is thinking of the Scottish type cattle no longer being in existence.  There is some semen around on some of the bulls, but it would be darn hard to find females of that lineage.  I seem to remember an outfit in Pennsylvania that ran an ad in Shorthorn Couintry several years ago that was keeping some of the old horned breeding alive.  I'll have to dig for that ad tonight.  It was kind of interesting.  The Calrossie herd, along with Louada, Bapton, Denend, Aberfeldy, and Scotsdale, among others, were the rage of the day when we got started in the breed 49 years ago.  I found it interesting that one of them said there were no cattle of that type around anymore in Scotland and it was a good thing.  One of the first cows I bought with my own money was a Louada Aristocrat daughter with a bull calf at foot sired by the $10,000 Scotsdale Arrogant.  We arranged with Billy Anderson to have the cow rebred that way and picked her up a month or two later.  The cow was kept here for a few years with, shall we say, limited success.  I would have to agree with Mr. McGillvary.  There has not been one moment in the past 49 years that I wished I'd have kept a few daughters of that cow.  We had offspring of Louada Rothes Prince, Bapton Crusader, Lewisfield Rival, Meadowview Constructor, Louada Caesar, Kickapoo Keynote, Acadia Napoleon 66th, and some others I can't remember just now.  Fun to look at the old photos, but I don't miss weaning 300 pound calves from cows with bottle teats and udders that drug the ground.  Ah, yes.  The good old days.

 

[oakview]

Forgot to mention:  So you don't think us Shorthorn people had all the fun, somewhere I've got a catalog of the Shadow Isle Angus Farm dispersion from about 1953.  (I'm not that old.  Dad got the catalog before I was born!)  If memory serves me correctly, I think their main herd bull was Prince Eric of Sunbeam.  This was the era of belt buckle cattle, but, judging from the pictures, ol' Prince wasn't quite that big.  The catalog was the size of the Sears Christmas catalog, I think it weighed more than Prince, and I used to study it for hours when I was young and didn't need glasses to read.  It's been a fun ride from Prince Eric of Sunbeam to Friggio to Proud Jazz, not to mention everything in between.

 

[RyanChandler]

I can't wait to hear the response. 

Just in the short search I did of cattle with the Calrossie prefix, I found several that the farthest pedigree back with a date is 1951 and then it only goes maybe 3 more generations until you have blanks? 

Type in this reg #: 431458  No pedigree on the animal?

I just have so many questions about all this- If anyone has any books - coffee table type preferably but any type- or literature where I can get some insight on this- let me know please.  I've heard some say " well that pedigree has some dual purpose breeding"  or some "dairy breeding" on back so and so generation.  What does this mean?  I read it as these animals aren't pure because of this influence?? Is that correct?  Thats why I ask about the wordage Haumont and Albaugh use: "dual purpose milking shorthorns."   

R.N. Reed says they are pure shorthorn but what does this mean?  From previous text, I thought If they had dual purpose or milking blood they weren't ???  Both of the bulls I see listed on Albaughs page look like primitive dairy type bulls to me.  If you'll notice they even have pictures of some Apache? I think it is daughters that are being milked in a parlor? ( Though I do love the idea of an 1100lb heavy milking cow)

What about the DRC cattle?  what infusion do they have that disqualifies them from being pure? WHat about the cattle that qualify has 100% in the Canadian registry?

 

[oakview]

In a nutshell, all Shorthorn cattle in the US were registered together until, I believe, 1948.  At that time, the beef people and the dairy people decided to go their separate ways.  The beef people formed the American Shorthorn Association and the dairy people formed the American Milking Shorthorn Society.  The Haumonts, by the way, registerred their cattle in both associations.  There may have been a few others.  In the early '70s, the beef people decided they needed an influx of new blood (growth) and decided to "allow" Milking Shorthorns back in the ASA herd book as long as they traced to the original Coates Herd Book, I think that is what it was originally called.  As I remember it, the ASA did not have all the records, so the AMSS had to trace the pedigrees and verify that the AMSS recorded animal did indeed trace to the original herd book.  They charged either $750 or $850 for bulls and $250 for cows for this service.  Most beef people preferred to call the AMSS recorded cattle dual purpose.  During this time, the AMSS wanted to upgrade their dairy qualities, so they were incorporating Australian blood, among others, into their herd book.  Since these cattle did not trace to the Coates Herd Book, they were not allowed into the ASA.  The ASA appendix program of the time did not allow eventual acceptance of appendix cattle as purebreds.  Most of the extended pedigrees on the ASA website just do not go back far enough to include the Calrossie, Bapton, etc., cattle.  The last Calrossie bred bulls that I can think of off hand imported into the US in the mid 60's were Calrossie Diadem and Calrossie Diamond.  Diamond was owned by Melbourne Farms of Illinois.  They had an annual sale with Leveldale (Mathers) and Wernacres (Wernicke).  I could go on, but I have to go coach a girl's T-ball game.  Later.

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

Ryan, lots of questions. Will try answer someones with my perspective.

Regarding old registers with blank pedigrees, I can assume that these animals were not insert on herd book databank. Had found same problem with some old pedigrees on ASA or CLRC, by the way, I have printed pedigrees copies with me, showing the missing ancestors online as registered. Here in Brazilian, the Hereford herd book not insert the old registers on computer, data before 150.000 registers number are out of online search, but they exist.

Regarding pure Shorthorns, I assume that Scottish, Milking, Double purpose and Dairy are pure, same for Northern Dairy Shorthorn line on UK. The primary question is, if they not were mixd with another breed, they are pure, they are Shorthorn. "Types" are different selection types inside a mayor breed, but all are Shorthorns. For example, Red Angus is Aberdeen Angus breed, not an apart breed (exception for US), as well as Herefords (horned and polled are the same breed). The unique difference are the lines that were kept pure, as the Traditional Aberden Angus, Traditional Hereford (without overseas mixed blood) or Original Lincoln Red (without continental blood infusion). I can guess that Native or Traditional ou Pure Shorthorn are all breed branches since that none exotic breed (Illawarra, Maines, Holstein, Brahman, Lincoln Red, Angus...) were infusioned.

Of course that an pd line unfashionable as Native ones are, will not show the exuberance of new open bloodlines. But join all breeders, select good bulls and give some time for them, I'm sure that good cattle will apper in few years. Maybe the best way could do a herd book section for Native, join the breeders and make with them use modern tools for selection, by other hand will ever to be a pet/zoo line with poor shaped animals.

I have lots of books and this matter is very good. I would like expend two or three days discussing it with some people.

Also pure for a register society is based on register rules, if association understand that a 1/8 Maine animal is pure, it will to be for association. But genetically what is accepted? 99.99%? Perhaps! For me not! For me since that herd book was closed and assumed as closed....it's closed!

My point...hard to explain with limited skills and on SP.

 

[RyanChandler]

I still wanna hear answers regarding my previous post but does anyone know what "type" of shorthorns were used when making the Gert and Beefmaster breeds.  King Ranch lit states they started with 2000 shorthorn cows!  Since I've been 5 I could tell you Beefmasster were a quarter milkin shorthorn.  Is my wordage wrong?

 

[Okotoks]

Ryan if you can get a copy of SHORT-HORN CATTLE by Alvin H. Sanders Copyright, 1900 it gives an excellent history of the breed starting from it's foundation and up until 1900. It is 894 pages and there is a longer version published about 1906. The Haumont etc. cattle are cattle from mikling/dual purpose lines that when the American herdbook split chose to dual register thus getting pedigrees for their cattle in both the American Shorthorn Association and the American Milking Shorthorn Herdbooks. It's interesting how bulls from both bloodlines were used back and forth successfully over the years before the split. It seems success often precedes near disaster when a bloodline becomes the popular fashion and selection starts to be made on pedigree alone. Regarding the beef and milking cattle they did have common roots almost all going back to the Colling brothers herds of very early linebred shorthorns with numerous crosses of Hubback and Favorite. Two breeders were renowned with carrying on these bloodlines the Booths and Thomas Bates. The saying was Booth for the butcher and Bates for the pail.
A quote from p 57 of SHORT-HORN CATTLE
"Mr Booth endeavored to solve the problem of how to refine the old Teeswater stock. He realized the faults of the prevailing typeand was among the first to concede that through Hubback (319) and the Bakewell system the Collings had probably hit upon the long-sought line of progression. Unlike Mr. Bates and many other breeders of the time, he did not deem it essential, however , to go to Ketton and Barmpton for females to carry on his experiments. He had an idea that by crossing moderate-sized, strongly bred Colling bulls upon large-framed, roomy cows showing great constitution and an aptitude to fatten he could improve even upon the work of Collings."

here is a link to read a more comprehensive later edition on line , all 1200 plus pages!

http://archive.org/stream/shorthorncattle00sand#page/n9/mode/2up

For me the most interesting sections are Collings, Bates, Booth Cruickshank, the early American imports, The New York Mills Sale of 1873, the rise of shows, the development of great herds and strains and their subsequent ruin, it's all there (lol)

 

[r.n.reed]

When you get done with Shorthorn Cattle by Sanders get his follow up Red White and Roan.There is a chapter on the founding of the Polled branch of the breed.The foundation animals were all from the Bates strain and were all bred to a bunch of Cruickishank horned cows from the Harris herd in Kansas.Sons of Whitehall Sultan who was half Bates and half Cruickishank were then used.This is the foundation that the Haumont herd was bred from with very little out cross since.

 

[Will]

Ryan if you can get a copy of SHORT-HORN CATTLE by Alvin H. Sanders Copyright, 1900 it gives an excellent history of the breed starting from it's foundation and up until 1900. It is 894 pages and there is a longer version published about 1906. The Haumont etc. cattle are cattle from mikling/dual purpose lines that when the American herdbook split chose to dual register thus getting pedigrees for their cattle in both the American Shorthorn Association and the American Milking Shorthorn Herdbooks. It's interesting how bulls from both bloodlines were used back and forth successfully over the years before the split. It seems success often precedes near disaster when a bloodline becomes the popular fashion and selection starts to be made on pedigree alone. Regarding the beef and milking cattle they did have common roots almost all going back to the Colling brothers herds of very early linebred shorthorns with numerous crosses of Hubback and Favorite. Two breeders were renowned with carrying on these bloodlines the Booths and Thomas Bates. The saying was Booth for the butcher and Bates for the pail.
A quote from p 57 of SHORT-HORN CATTLE
"Mr Booth endeavored to solve the problem of how to refine the old Teeswater stock. He realized the faults of the prevailing typeand was among the first to concede that through Hubback (319) and the Bakewell system the Collings had probably hit upon the long-sought line of progression. Unlike Mr. Bates and many other breeders of the time, he did not deem it essential, however , to go to Ketton and Barmpton for females to carry on his experiments. He had an idea that by crossing moderate-sized, strongly bred Colling bulls upon large-framed, roomy cows showing great constitution and an aptitude to fatten he could improve even upon the work of Collings."

here is a link to read a more comprehensive later edition on line , all 1200 plus pages!

http://archive.org/stream/shorthorncattle00sand#page/n9/mode/2up

For me the most interesting sections are Collings, Bates, Booth Cruickshank, the early American imports, The New York Mills Sale of 1873, the rise of shows, the development of great herds and strains and their subsequent ruin, it's all there (lol)

I actually have this book.  A friend of my grandfathers gave it to me several years ago and we keep it on our entertainment center.  I have not read the whole thing just parts of it.  It has lots of information.  I also have some registration papers from 1906.  I have planned on looking some of those animals up online but have never taken the time.  I think in one chapter it is talking about a prominent breeder from Kentucky from the late 1800's.  It says his herd empahsizes middle and rib capacity as the most important trait that with out enough middle cows can not be productive. 

 

[RyanChandler]

I'd have to agree with that Kentucky cattleman.