Shorty Folks

[knabe]

All cattle are asterisk.

The only thing pure about them are they are from auroch.

Even they are asterisk as they come from something not auroch.

Really the only reason to worry about purity is if parents are verified with DNA because when the genomics industry becomes useful, one would like to be able to introgression markers.

But of course they won't allow that. It's much more important to reduce the gene pool now for stuff that isn't yet conclusive or causal.

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

My - end history - was referring to this discussion long and absurd that returns from time to time.

Regarding pedigrees, after read all that was already exposed here, is also lost time to study and follow pedigrees. As many old pedigrees are fakes, as also was described here so many times. Since I can not rely on paper unless I have the knowledge about what are the fakes as Enticer and G9. For otherwise, I will continue blind.

My conclusion is that, YES, are all appendix cattle, some openly described, while others do not.

Anyway, people will always defend their goals no matter what they serve.

 

[oakview]

I would not give up studying pedigrees (and history lessons) so soon.  In my opinion, the true "breeders" are those that know their pedigrees, taking into consideration their positives and negatives, can honestly evaluate cattle, and make intelligent decisions on which ones will benefit their program and get them where they want to be.  There's probably a "black sheep" somewhere in the pedigree of every registered animal of every species.  Thirty years ago, when I purchased Lazy D Ultimate Type as a calf from Richard Dolginow, I promoted him with the "3 P's."  Pedigree, Performance, and Profile.  He was sired by Deerpark Leader himself, and though old Leader did not have a pedigree, he was accepted into the ASA herdbook, which was good enough for me, and had a history of siring more than a few good ones, Dividend, Leader 18th, etc.  Ultimate Type's dam was one of the better Irish females I had seen, sired by Highfield Leader, a bull that I was told was the best bull in Ireland.  Ultimate Type had the performance that was desirable and accepted at the time.  As for profile, I believe he was approprately named by his breeder.  I think those of us that consider ourselves breeders would be wise to stick to those principals.  Who cares what anybody else thinks?  I would strongly recommend the study of pedigrees and using that knowledge as a large part of your selection decisions. 

 

[JTM]

I think that asterisk free Shorthorns are definitely a valuable option. It provides a tighter gene pool that can be used for better hybrid vigor in a crossbreeding program for commercial purposes. I think if I'm looking at several head of cattle similar in type and performance and have an asterisk free option, it would make me feel like the asterisk free has a bit more value than the asterisk. More options for your breeding program.

yea, thats gonna be near impossible. Unless of course you're talking Canadian asterick free.

Uh, no it's not. If you want to see some come to Ohio. Of course I'm sure you already knew that I have asterisk free Shorthorns along side asterisk and appendix Shorthorns in my pastures right now. It's rare but not near impossible... When it all comes down to it though, I agree with JIT that we should "Let people use the genetics they want and let the marketplace decide on whether they are right or wrong." And that includes Crossbred bulls (Appendix). 

 

[RyanChandler]

I think that asterisk free Shorthorns are definitely a valuable option. It provides a tighter gene pool that can be used for better hybrid vigor in a crossbreeding program for commercial purposes. I think if I'm looking at several head of cattle similar in type and performance and have an asterisk free option, it would make me feel like the asterisk free has a bit more value than the asterisk. More options for your breeding program.

yea, thats gonna be near impossible. Unless of course you're talking Canadian asterick free.

Uh, no it's not. If you want to see some come to Ohio. Of course I'm sure you already knew that I have asterisk free Shorthorns along side asterisk and appendix Shorthorns in my pastures right now. It's rare but not near impossible... When it all comes down to it though, I agree with JIT that we should "Let people use the genetics they want and let the marketplace decide on whether they are right or wrong." And that includes Crossbred bulls (Appendix). 

While I don't have any crossbred bulls or appendix shorthorns-nor will I- I do have some asterick free cows.  The ASA database and I have become real close here lately.  ITs amazing the conslusions one is able to come to when just doing a simple..what I like to call... comparative progeny analysis.  If you have the time, I wouldn't mind seeing some reg #s of these asterick free cattle that have comparable performance but don't have Irish or Canadian breeding up close.  I found some RB cattle that were close but then you see lots of Canadian influence within a couple generations. 

You know,  I read JIT's entire post and was 'nodding the whole time' -well until that last sentence.  And considering the "type" of shorthorns us three all have, I find it very ironic JIT would say that and even more so that you would agree with it.  Its no secret how the uninformed general public feel about Shorthorn cattle... especially the commercially oriented purebred type.  Hell I can buy the highest end$ production oriented purebred heifers for 2-4k.  In very few- if any- other breeds can you purchase the best the breed offers for that kind of money.  Your logic would conclude that because of their modest at best price- that they're somehow "wrong." And you know thats just not true. 

Call up the likes of a Larry Leonhardt or Jim Lent and ask them what they think bout crossbred bulls.  Too many people listening to farmers and not real cattlemen. 

"One of the most important factors for both commercial breeders and stud breeders alike is the repeatability factor of the sires that they purchase to advance the quality of their own stock... This repeatability is only achievable if the background genetics are relatively stable."

 

[garybob]

This is a good discussion and there have been many good points made.I think the only problem that may arise from the '' native'' programs would be that at some point purity may become the sole factor in making breeding decisions setting aside the other profit traits,a Bates round 2.
Speaking of the Haumont cattle XBAR,here is a 2 yr.old 108 son out of a Haumont Cherry Blossom in our reserve pen.

Bump!!!!! Look at what a bull he is!!!

GB

 

[RyanChandler]

Where did JIT go?  He stated he tried 'for years' to find pure shorthorns and was unsuccessful.  Now I personally find him pretty credible. How is he unable and so many others feel there are many sources??

 

[oakview]

I can't speak for JIT, but there are very, very few of what I would classify as pure Shorthorns out there.  The Haumont cattle bred to some of the old bulls would be among the few, if they traced to the Coates Herd Book.  I've read some of the debate regarding the Coates Herd Book, but it is the best we have.  If they have Irish, Lincoln Red, or have been brought up through the appendix program, they don't quality as pure in my opinion.  Good luck finding many Canadian cattle that don't go back to Irish, Lincoln Red, or Australian.  Not many US "pure" cattle, either. 

 

[oakview]

On a personal note, I am purchasing a Canadian bred bull.  No asterisk on the ASA #, considered 100% pure by the Canadian Shorthorn Association as noted on their web site.  He surely would be what a lot of you say you want.  He's pure, right?  No asterisk from one Association, 100% Shorthorn by the other.  Well, in his ancestry appear both Irish Shorthorns and Lincoln Reds.  The Irish have no pedigree and Lincoln Reds have their own breed registry association, yet this bull is deemed "asterisk free" and "100% Shorthorn."  Can you tell me why some of you consider this bull "pure" but not a bull that might have CF Trump 5 generations back?  I think it's somewhat absurd.  It reminds me of several of my fellow Shorthorn breeders in the 1970's.  They wouldn't be caught dead using one of those darn milkers.  Columbus and Foxdale Favorite Robin were going to ruin the breed.  They were going to Canada to get their bulls!  They came home with Melbros Stronghold and Canadian Image.  If you know your pedigrees, you know they brought home exactly what they were trying to avoid.  If it's in the herdbook and you like it, use it!   

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

Papers are only papers! Genetics is the true question.

If US, Canada or Coate's HB tell me that an animal with Lincoln Red, Irish (no ancestors) or Maine Anjou is 100% pure, they are lying, ops..excuse me, they are not lying under papers rules registers.....they are lying under genetics word sense.

Here in Brazil at any time Maines and Lincolns were accept on closed herd book, and now some US/Canadian asterisk bulls are accept as pure, but they are not! For registers rules are, but for genetics they are not. Simple!

Keep with my previous idea. For classify an animal as pure...a DNA analyses is required. Only papers will not accurate nothing as many fakes pedigrees are under suspect.

Yes, are some sources of pure cattle, if they are true scottish type, don't know....but this is a criteria only. As to be pure, not exactly scottish type is required. The point is, is all ancestor go back to first books of Coate's HB, they are assume as pure.

Why complicate a so simple question?

Guys, don't forget that some time ago appendix were the primary fashionable type and these make money for some guys, now, new ideas are appearing and the apendix can not be take off these cattle! It's all commercial...money...power! If more people are looking for non appendix, appendix will lost value slowly!!

Bred what you wish, but breed honestly! For you and for anothers!!

 

[RyanChandler]

Unless you attach a certain level of nostalgia to using the asterisk free, I think it's ill advised to make selections solely on whether they carry it or not.


Again, I'll ask JTM or anyone really:

If you have the time, I wouldn't mind seeing some reg #s of these asterick free cattle that have comparable performance but don't have Irish or Canadian breeding up close.  I found some RB cattle that were close but then you see lots of Canadian influence within a couple generations. "

 

[knabe]

Do you care about marbling?

22z had one of the lowest imf in his contemporary group, 1.84%

On the other hand he had a big ribe eye, 15

On the other hand, hes out of one of my favorite shorthorn bull.

 

[garybob]

Do you care about marbling?

22z had one of the lowest imf in his contemporary group, 1.84%

On the other hand he had a big ribe eye, 15

On the other hand, hes out of one of my favorite shorthorn bull.

Funny thing is, when "plugged-in" to a Current Herd, his offspring, are way better than many Modern Sires!

GB

 

[garybob]

Arbitrary,although a professor made the decision.

Would that "Professor" be either Roger Hunsley, or Larry R. Cundiff???? ;D ;D

GB

 

[RyanChandler]

Do you care about marbling?

22z had one of the lowest imf in his contemporary group, 1.84%

On the other hand he had a big ribe eye, 15

On the other hand, hes out of one of my favorite shorthorn bull.

You forgot to include both his mgd and pgd are matriarchs of the breed.  At least IMO

Of course I care about marbling. But no, it's not my primary concern. As long as he's able to maintain condition on my pasture, we re good. I prefer to keep a certain level of ass and growth in my cattle. And 500lb ww -at least in my operation- are unacceptable.

The Champ was the most complete bull offered this season- hence the reason I bought him.
My cows need length of spine and a longer more level hip. More hip in generally really. Vanguard is as impressive in this regard as any 15 month old bull I've ever see.  He does both while also possessing serious upper rib shape. He's packed full of muscle where it pay$ and is extremely athletic.  These qualities make him very valuable to my herd. He's bred 20+ cows in the last month in 90 degree weather and still looks great. 

Here's his flyer for the herdsire reference issue:

 

[garybob]

Do you care about marbling?

22z had one of the lowest imf in his contemporary group, 1.84%

On the other hand he had a big ribe eye, 15

On the other hand, hes out of one of my favorite shorthorn bull.

You know this as well as I do, Knabe, that Shortorns out-marble the reigning,undisputed champs of back-fat & seam fat......the Hereford, yet many Cattlemen erroneously believe that Herefords are a close second to Angus in Marbling Scores, at least that's why many folks in the Ozarks say they like to keep BWF Cows.

GB

 

[garybob]

This is a good discussion and there have been many good points made.I think the only problem that may arise from the '' native'' programs would be that at some point purity may become the sole factor in making breeding decisions setting aside the other profit traits,a Bates round 2.
Speaking of the Haumont cattle XBAR,here is a 2 yr.old 108 son out of a Haumont Cherry Blossom in our reserve pen.

pm me a price on him, please, r n reed???

 

[Dale]

At Homeplace Farms we have 11 adult animals without asterisks on their registration number.  Some of these had the asterisk dropped, but they still are back in the pedigree.  Others that are asterisk-free have Irish and/or G 9, Enticer, etc. that have been discussed in this thread. 

In an ideal world, the asterisk free would be desirable, if the animals were of equal quality.  In the real world, the good cattle which have an asterisk are a very necessary part of the Shorthorn breed, and bring in desirable genetics, which somebody had the integrity to write down. 

At one point the vast majority of our herd was without asterisks.  For a while we bred several of these back to asterisk-free sires.  Now the plan is simply to use good Shorthorn bulls  with or without asterisks.  Breeding exclusively for asterisk-free is similar to selecting against other traits such as a particular color or horned or polled and slows genetic progress compared to just using the best genetics available.

 

[oakview]

Second the above.

Perhaps an alternative for those that want "pure" Shorthorns would be Australia.  I am not too familiar with Australian pedigrees, but I believe they've used some US blood that may have included some Enticer and RPS Tribune.  There might be some available that trace 100% back to the original Australian Shorthorns.  There was a Marellan Isobel cow imported to the US several years ago and several bulls have been brought over.  Maybe someone can shed light on whether that would be possible anymore or even if a "pure" Australian Shorthorn can be found.  (one without Irish or an *)

 

[r.n.reed]

Here is a Canadian bull that I am told qualifies for the native program x4001322, of course you can only go back so far with the ASA records but maybe one of our Canadian breeders can find some holes in his pedigree.
The way I see it at this point in time there is less predictability in these native programs than many of the star cattle.You are using a distinct type linebred cow base and crossing to several different types of old time sires way different in phenotype than the cow base.